Blackwater Never Disappoints

[Xavier_Onassis]

It is pretty obvious what happens when buildings can be built with no regulations at all. Just take a look at what happened in Haiti. Many buildings were made with salty beach sand and not enough cement and rebar, and the quake turned them into powder.

[Michael Tee]

<<You mean dozens of homes that passed inspections and meet the local zoning ordinances?>>

Depending on the laxity of the local codes, I would expect the casualties would include some built to code but mostly those not built to code.  I would HOPE that the casualties were MOSTLY due to not following code, but I don't know that for a fact.

[Michael Tee]

<<It is pretty obvious what happens when buildings can be built with no regulations at all. Just take a look at what happened in Haiti. Many buildings were made with salty beach sand and not enough cement and rebar, and the quake turned them into powder.>>

Good point, XO.  Haiti is an excellent example of unregulated building in all its glory.  Freedom, it's wonderful!!

[Amianthus]

Good point, XO.  Haiti is an excellent example of unregulated building in all its glory.  Freedom, it's wonderful!!

I'd also like to point out that even Haiti's government built buildings collapsed.

[Amianthus]

Depending on the laxity of the local codes, I would expect the casualties would include some built to code but mostly those not built to code.  I would HOPE that the casualties were MOSTLY due to not following code, but I don't know that for a fact.

Get back to us when you have some facts, instead of blue-sky wish thinking.

[Xavier_Onassis]

If you go to Mexico City, you will see a large number of buildings that have been started and never completed. Most of these were the result of being approved by one inspector who was probably bribed, and then rejected after a quake or tremor cracked parts of the foundation and a second (or later) inspector refused to approve.The result was that either the owner of the project ran out of money and could nether tear the building down or complete it, so it just stood there for decades. I used to wait for the bus across from what was supposed to be the Hotel Essex in Colonia Roma Sur. The project was at least 10 years old then in 1967, and it was still there, in a much more deteriorated, mildewed and rusty state the last time I visited Mexico City, in 1980. I am guessing that the big quake in the mid-80's did it in, but it could still be there, bogged down in red tape.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I'd also like to point out that even Haiti's government built buildings collapsed.

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I doubt that there was any government requirement for a building code enforced anywhere. The last Port au Prince earthquake was in the 1700's. The US and French Embassies seem to have been undamaged, and I imagine that they simply used their own codes, based on known fault lines and best practices.

[Amianthus]

Depending on the laxity of the local codes, I would expect the casualties would include some built to code but mostly those not built to code.  I would HOPE that the casualties were MOSTLY due to not following code, but I don't know that for a fact.

In Miami, officials at the National Hurricane Center said that Cuba could be hit especially hard by Hurricane Ivan. Meteorologists examined glowing orange and red blobs on satellite images showing that sea temperatures between the storm and Cuba were among the warmest in the Caribbean, well above 80 degrees. Those conditions would feed energy into the hurricane and could easily make it a Category 5 monster when it struck, they said.

"It's going to be a panorama of desolation," said Rafael Mojica, a hurricane expert at the center. He said that Guam was about the only place on earth with building codes sufficiently stringent to endure a worst-case hurricane.

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/cuba/battered.htm

[Amianthus]

The US and French Embassies seem to have been undamaged, and I imagine that they simply used their own codes, based on known fault lines and best practices.

What an outrageous assumption. Why, without government mandated building codes, strictly enforced by government inspectors, we know that the builders would just use the worst quality materials and build something that would fall down pretty much on it's own.

Isn't that the argument?

Or are you saying that buildings can be erected without government oversight that will survive storms and other natural disasters?

[Xavier_Onassis]

Taiwan has pretty strict codes now, but I doubt that older buildings are all as well built as those on Guam.

[Amianthus]

Taiwan has pretty strict codes now, but I doubt that older buildings are all as well built as those on Guam.

Typically, the government will design codes that will not save all structures, but just a certain percentage of them - so that the tax base survives in most cases. They play the probabilities, no different than a gambler.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Isn't that the argument?

Or are you saying that buildings can be erected without government oversight that will survive storms and other natural disasters?
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The argument is that an building built according to known best practices, which could be mandated by a government or anyone else sufficiently knowledgeable about the risks of the location, stands a better chance of not being destroyed. Take Frank Lloyd Wright's hotel in Tokyo. It really does not matter WHO dictates the code, so long as it is sufficiently strict to withstand the dangers of the location. In the case of the embassies in Haiti, that would be whoever dictated the building of those structures, which I assume would be the US and French governments. Earthquakes and hurricanes do not actually care who dictated the codes, of course.

So, of course, a building could be built without any government regulation and withstand the dangers of the location. It is USUALLY the case that the code requirements are on file with a government, and of course, a building could be built to withstand greater damage than required by a code as well. It probably is not usual that this is the case in most places, though.

[Amianthus]

and of course, a building could be built to withstand greater damage than required by a code as well. It probably is not usual that this is the case in most places, though.

Well, when you put the "government stamp of approval" on a particular code, why would anyone disagree? After all, the government has said it's safe, right?

[Christians4LessGvt]

"You probably never heard of the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire in New York City or
hundreds of other sweatshop, nightclub and hotel disasters which took the lives
of hundreds of workers"

You probably never heard of Bernie Madoff who got away with ridiculous things even
amidst the allegedly "vital government regulations" and gvt watch dog agencies designed
to "protect the public".

Were there more or less people injured by the Enrons and Madoffs 40 years ago
before all the watchdog agencies?

A fly by night securities firm can quickly meet all the S.E.C. requirements, gain a false sense of
espectability to the public and proceed to fleece the public. In an unregulated economy,
the operator would have had to earn a position of trust.

Oh for christ sake.  Why don't you go down to Florida after the next big storm
and see how many of these DIY palaces survive the storm.  Never happened yet
that dozens of homes weren't blown away.  

Oh and I am sure Al Gore and his merry men of gvt will solve it!
just like the Corps of Engineers did such a swell job down there in New Orleans!
LOL

I'd trust a private enterprise builder any day over a gvt built building!

Government is often the enemy of consumers and in the pocket of big firms and unions.

In the private sector, when a company fails, it usually ceases operations.

The opposite happens in government....when gvt fails we call for more gvt?....lol

Michael who audits the gvt? The government? The watchmen are evaluating themselves?

Some would survive, some would not.  Sorry, CU4, that is just not good enough.

But the gvt and society does that every day.
Things like toothpicks are allowed.
We could live without toothpicks pretty easily.
People choke to death every year on toothpicks.
But yet we do not outlaw toothpicks.
Thus "some survive, some don't survive".
We make those kind of choices every day as a society.


CU4, once I wade through all of that BS about who is producing and who is not,
the end result is that some schlockmeister who wants to get rich quick building shit-houses
is going to make a killing (no pun intended) in an unregulated market and because of his
limited liability corporations is going to evade all responsibility to his victims when one of
his masterpieces collapses or burns to the ground.  Something which just will not happen
in a well-regulated market.

Government regulations waste taxpayer money and don't keep us safe. In fact they give a
false sense of security and crowd out private certification mechanisms because people assume
"the government is taking care of this." In general there are two choices....the way of the
market, or the way of the corrupt politicians/bureaucrats. Clearly, you prefer getting screwed
over by politicians and bureaucrats I prefer the market making most choices.

[sirs]

I'd trust a private enterprise builder any day over a gvt built building!  Government is often the enemy of consumers and in the pocket of big firms and unions.  In the private sector, when a company fails, it usually ceases operations.  The opposite happens in government....when gvt fails we call for more gvt?....Michael who audits the gvt? The government? The watchmen are evaluating themselves?

Well summized, Cu4