Author Topic: The New Jim Crow  (Read 5261 times)

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Jim Crow
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2010, 11:48:26 PM »
<<Going by that standard, Canada doesn't spend any money on social programs, either. After all, it's just taxpayer's money going back to taxpayers, right?>>

Some of it obviously is, and some isn't.

What other source of income does the government of Canada have?

Last I checked, no government earns money from someone else.  They function by way of taxation.  Taxes, the people's money, goes to the government to allow it to do its job, which is.......taxing others to bring in money to allow it to do its job, which is......taxing others to bring in money to allow it to do its job, which is......taxing others to bring in money to allow it to do its job, which is......taxing others to bring in money to allow it to do its job, which is......taxing others to bring in money to allow it to do its job, which is......taxing others to bring in money to allow it to do its job, which is......taxing others to bring in money to allow it to do its job, which is......taxing others to bring in money to allow it to do its job, which is......taxing others to bring in money to allow it to do its job, which is......

I'm noting a pattern, here
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Jim Crow
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2010, 11:51:45 PM »
<<So is your $3T - which may or may not materialize...>>

First of all, a substantial portion of it already HAS materialized, unlike your $25 to $30 trill, NONE of which has materialized.

Secondly, the major portion of the un-materialized part of the $3 trill is future health care costs for disabled vets.  It is almost as certain as death and taxes that costs of medical care will continue to escalate, due to the cost of new drugs, new devices, new techniques and the increasing longevity of the population, vets included.

I can appreciate your attacking my $3 trill figure on the grounds that some of it being estimated future costs, may not materialize.  

What I can't appreciate is your double-standard skepticism, since you ought to be expending more critical energy on your own $25 to $30 trill figure, since it is ALL estimated future costs, NONE of which has materialized.

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Jim Crow
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2010, 11:54:53 PM »
First of all, a substantial portion of it already HAS materialized, unlike your $25 to $30 trill, NONE of which has materialized.

My $25-30T is in the budget appropriations, and for historical years has been documented as having been spent.

The "substantial portion" of your $3T that has been spent is well under $1T last time I checked.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Jim Crow
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2010, 11:56:13 PM »
What I can't appreciate is your double-standard skepticism, since you ought to be expending more critical energy on your own $25 to $30 trill figure, since it is ALL estimated future costs, NONE of which has materialized.

I assume you missed the fact that I also used historical figures from the last 20 years?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Jim Crow
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2010, 11:57:49 PM »
Secondly, the major portion of the un-materialized part of the $3 trill is future health care costs for disabled vets.

So, you are saying that no health care costs would have accrued for these vets had the war in Iraq not cropped up? Our troops are so perfectly healthy that it costs nothing in health care unless we go to war?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Jim Crow
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2010, 12:09:08 AM »
<<If White Guys are overdoseing more than black ones this is evidence ,but not proof ,that white guys are users more often , just as getting busted with enough drugs to warrant a long sentance more often for black guys than white ones is evidence, but not proof,  that black guys are merchants of the stuff more often.>>

I don't think you paid enough attention to my post, plane.  I wasn't comparing black to white ratios among dealers, I specifically made reference to black to white ratios in the criminal justice system among users, i.e. those who regardless of colour are NOT dealers.  Because independent of the criminal justice system, there is another system - - health care - - which has also compiled stats indicating relative populations of users within each race.

And BTW - - your male-female comparison is not comparable to Alexander's white-black comparison for the simple reason that biology, as you must have observed, creates a far greater differences between males and females than it does between black males and white males.  So that while biology can explain much of the difference in incarceration rates between male and female, it can't do the same for differences in incarceration rates between whites and blacks.  Nice try, though.  Good for a quick laugh, which I am sure was at least part of your intention.



I am laughing at your pretentions to logic.

If treatment rates between races prove that rates of use are diffrent , then incarceration rates also prove that rates of use are diffrent .

But since one "proves" that Whie people use more drugs and the other "proves" that black people use more drugs , you accept one indicator as a proof of use and the other as a proof of bias.

I do see a proof of bias , I see your refusal to use genuine Logic as a proof that you are biased.


To use statistical studys to support personal predujudices is pernicious and foolish. The proper use of statistical study is to reveil truth , something that isn't going to happen if the result is decided before the data gathering or before the data evaluation.

If you want to use incarceration rates diffrence between races as proof of something (anything) you will have to eliminate or account for every important variable that opens up some other possible conclusion.

Of course there is a huge biological difference between men and women , this is an example of exactly what you are doing wrong, I did the same thing wrong on purpose.

Have you really even tried to controll for the huge number of variables that might be important?

For another example , the poor get locked up for longer sentances and more often than do the wealthy , is this proof that the  better educations of the wealthy makes them less criminal?

It isn't complete proof?

Do tell.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Jim Crow
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2010, 12:11:43 AM »
<<The "substantial portion" of your $3T that has been spent is well under $1T last time I checked.>>

Here's the March 2, 2008 Washington Post article by Stiglitz and Bilmes - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/07/AR2008030702846.html; which doesn't seem to provide a clear breakdown between past and future costs as of that date.   I don't know where or when you last checked, but I'd say an approximately 30% cut was not insubstantial.  I'm pretty certain that if anyone proposed cutting your salary by that much, you would certainly consider the cut to be a substantial one.

The article also makes it clear that the costs of the Iraq War alone will seriously impair the nation's ability to address other pressing needs in just about every imaginable field, from education to repair of the infrastructure - - which is basically apposite to the discussion with CU4 about the reasons for the "failure" (his term) of the social remediation programs targeting  the victims of racism.  As I said, the costs of the Iraq War, substantial though they may be, are far from the only costs of a militarized, crypto-fascist warfare state which slowly but surely are fatally draining the resources of the state.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Jim Crow
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2010, 12:17:49 AM »

5.  the very vagueness of the term, "social programs" which could cover a lot of things or a very limited number of things, depending on who is writing up the estimate.


Lets use a definition that we can agree on then , got one?


By the definitions we hold common here , we have been spending more on social programs than on military projects for decades.


Also, we count the retirement cost of old Soldiers and Sailors as military expenditure, you aren't going to claim that war drives this cost up are you?

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Jim Crow
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2010, 12:20:50 AM »


<<I assume you missed the fact that I also used historical figures from the last 20 years?>>

I'm still not completely sure what you used, since you didn't provide a source or a method in your first post mentioning the $25 to $30 trill figure, and then you let out some details of your methods in the posts that followed.  Near as I can piece it all together you extrapolated past outlays forward for the next 20 years.  Or something like that.  Never bothering to compensate, as far as I can tell, for the drastic budgetary cuts that everyone else assumes are coming in the wake of the bailouts, the stimuli, the health-care reform, etc.

What I first said about your numbers still applies - - they are purely speculative, based entirely on past performances, which cannot and do not guarantee future performances,  as you yourself well know.



Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Jim Crow
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2010, 12:38:12 AM »
I'm pretty certain that if anyone proposed cutting your salary by that much, you would certainly consider the cut to be a substantial one.

Salary? I wish. I'm a software contractor forced into the role like the guy who flew the plane into the IRS building in Austin. My pay varies by 100% from month to month.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Jim Crow
« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2010, 12:38:36 AM »


<<I assume you missed the fact that I also used historical figures from the last 20 years?>>

I'm still not completely sure what you used, since you didn't provide a source or a method in your first post mentioning the $25 to $30 trill figure, and then you let out some details of your methods in the posts that followed.  Near as I can piece it all together you extrapolated past outlays forward for the next 20 years.  Or something like that.  Never bothering to compensate, as far as I can tell, for the drastic budgetary cuts that everyone else assumes are coming in the wake of the bailouts, the stimuli, the health-care reform, etc.

What I first said about your numbers still applies - - they are purely speculative, based entirely on past performances, which cannot and do not guarantee future performances,  as you yourself well know.





So you actually know bupkiss or (n)+bupkiss about what we have been spending on social programs?

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Jim Crow
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2010, 12:44:07 AM »
I'm pretty certain that if anyone proposed cutting your salary by that much, you would certainly consider the cut to be a substantial one.

Salary? I wish. I'm a software contractor forced into the role like the guy who flew the plane into the IRS building in Austin. My pay varies by 100% from month to month.


Wow.

That  takes  courage.

Can you keep that up a long time?

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Jim Crow
« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2010, 12:44:17 AM »
I'm still not completely sure what you used, since you didn't provide a source or a method in your first post mentioning the $25 to $30 trill figure, and then you let out some details of your methods in the posts that followed.  Near as I can piece it all together you extrapolated past outlays forward for the next 20 years.  Or something like that.

No, I first extrapolated the current budget forward 20 years (assuming expenditures will not increase, which is why I said it was a minimum amount).

Then, when you complained about it being future spending, I went back to previous years and picked 5 years out of the last 20 (spaced evenly through the period), totaled, and multiplied by 4.

The figures for past years IS ALREADY SPENT. And the figures came from the US Government. There are websites with the budget info on them.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Jim Crow
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2010, 12:46:57 AM »
What I first said about your numbers still applies - - they are purely speculative, based entirely on past performances, which cannot and do not guarantee future performances,  as you yourself well know.

There is nothing "speculative" about adding up past expenditures. Although I would love to see you argue that point with an auditor.

"No, I shouldn't be taxed on that income that I deposited into the bank - it was purely speculative, it might or might not have actually come in."
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Jim Crow
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2010, 12:47:37 AM »
<<I am laughing at your pretentions to logic.>>

What can I tell ya, plane?  I try my best, but I guess logic aces like yourself will always have to laugh at my hopeless efforts to rise to your exalted level.

<<If treatment rates between races prove that rates of use are diffrent , then incarceration rates also prove that rates of use are diffrent .>>

Not really, since the hospital ER users are largely self-admitted or medically admitted, there is little to no opportunity for the hospital itself to influence who is going to walk in its doors.   OTOH, admission into the criminal justice system is not all that voluntary.  The perps don't walk themselves into the stations and their families don't rush to bring them in either.  The people in the system are more often than not - - probably 99% to 1% - - dragged in by the system and thus their numbers in the system is a lot more reflective of who the system wants to drag into its maw than the number of ER patients is reflective of who the hospitals are dragging in.

Oh, shit, there I go again, my pretensions to logic probably provoking you into even more gales of hilarity.  Sorry, I know you've got serious things to ponder and here I am just clowning around again.  I'll knock off for now, plane, I'm sure there's a floor in this building that needs some sweeping.

<<I do see a proof of bias , I see your refusal to use genuine Logic as a proof that you are biased.>>

Yes, that must be it.  Thank you for the insight.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 12:49:44 AM by Michael Tee »