Author Topic: Obama's War  (Read 7551 times)

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Kramer

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Obama's War
« on: March 27, 2010, 09:28:11 PM »
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100327/D9EN48U80.html

The number of U.S. troops killed in Afghanistan has roughly doubled in the first three months of 2010 compared to the same period last year as Washington has added tens of thousands of additional soldiers to reverse the Taliban's momentum.

Michael Tee

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2010, 11:27:15 PM »
Gee, how sad.  Whatsamadda wit dose dumb Afghans anyway?  Don't they realize the U.S. is just killing them for their own good and that the American Way is the Better Way?

Plane

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2010, 11:41:48 PM »
    We have already tried allowing them to kill each other with out our help.

      That was working pretty well , but Osama Bin Laden made use of the situation to rent himself a country and build himself a suicidal army.

      So we had no choice but to become involved , and once we broke it we had bought it.

Kramer

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2010, 12:07:19 AM »
    We have already tried allowing them to kill each other with out our help.

      That was working pretty well , but Osama Bin Laden made use of the situation to rent himself a country and build himself a suicidal army.

      So we had no choice but to become involved , and once we broke it we had bought it.

you are wasting your time with Mikey, he's a lost cause.

sirs

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2010, 02:39:04 AM »
Anything that kills more American troops, he's good with that, regardless of who the President is
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2010, 06:06:06 AM »
<<We have already tried allowing them to kill each other without our help.

<<That was working pretty well , but Osama Bin Laden made use of the situation to rent himself a country and build himself a suicidal army.

<<So we had no choice but to become involved , and once we broke it we had bought it.>>

It's another one of plane's "history lessons," always short and sweet, always showing how good and reasonable the Americans have been, and always almost totally fictitious.  Well done, plane!

In the first place, the "without our help" is totally disingenuous.  When a Marxist Afghan government invited the Red Army into the country to help them put down a "rebellion" by a bunch of 14th Century anti-Soviet religious fanatics, you gave plenty of help to the fanatics, including the shoulder-fired ground-to-air missiles which neutralized Soviet air-power and ultimately enabled them to drive out the Red Army, overthrow the Afghan Communist government and torture its last leader to death.  The end result of your meddling in another country's internal affairs was to enslave the Afghan people and particularly the women of Aghanistan, to the most backward and ignorant segment of the local population.  So much for the "without your help" bullshit.

The Afghan government then made the mistake of allowing OBL to launch an attack from its territory on the continental United States, killing just under three thousand Americans, a terrible slaughter of innocent civilians to be sure, but nowhere near the number of innocent Muslim civilians killed by that time by forces armed and enabled by the U.S.A., particularly in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, in which the number of child victims alone had probably run into the hundreds, if not thousands.  Nevertheless, the U.S.A. was certainly entitled, and well within its rights in so doing, to launch a punitive strike against Afghanistan for harbouring the attackers and refusing to give them up for trial in the criminal courts of the U.S.A.  Probably at that point, even to invade Afghanistan in pursuit of the attackers.

<<Once we broke it, we bought it>> is doubly misleading - - first, you did not "break" Afghanistan, you invaded it.  A country, of course, can't be "broken" the way a doll or a plate is broken, and all you did in the real world was to destroy the authority of the clique of individuals constituting the "government" of the day.  Left to their own devices, the Afghan people would have found other individuals to govern the country, some more effectively than others, and probably none with undisputed authority, but then again, that was more or less how Afghanistan was being governed before the American and Soviet invasions anyway.  

Secondly, there is no such principle in international law as "You broke it, you bought it."  It's not even a principle of domestic American law, which would probably say, "You broke it, you pay the owners of it (the Afghan people in this case) enough money to replace whatever it was that was broken, or to fix the damage caused by the breaking," or some such measure, but in any event, you are generally made to pay damages to anyone whose property was broken.  Effectively, you illegally used the attack on Sept. 11 to justify an invasion and occupation of Afghanistan and to force down the throats of the Afghan people, at gunpoint, a form of government which you think they should have, whether they want it or not.

Furthermore, "we had no choice" is a lame and pathetic argument that has been used at one time or another by every fucking criminal and criminal regime on this planet, from Adolf Hitler to George W. Bush.   Every time a crime is committed, big or small, the criminal of course does have a choice: to commit or not to commit the crime.  In the case of the criminal George W. Bush regime, there were plenty of choices:  to mount a short, sharp, punitive strike on Afghanistan, probably by an intensive bombing raid on Afghan government or military bases, with a warning that more will follow if more attacks are made on America; to bring the Afghan government before the World Court for harbouring criminals before and after the September 11 attacks; to stop provoking revenge attacks on America by ending the financial support and enabling of the ongoing Jewish efforts to ethnically cleanse the West Bank and to illegally settle Muslim lands there; etc.  There were plenty of choices.


Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2010, 05:08:05 PM »
Afghanistan was doing far better in the early 1970's. When Brzezinski got in power, his plan was to punish the Russians for what they had done to the Poles, so he got the Saudis to start sending missionaries to Afghanistan, hoping that Islamic fundamentalism would spread to the various Soviet "stans" and give the Russians a hard time. Eventually the Soviets felt threatened and invaded Afghanistan, and the US and the Saudis allied to run them out. The country was devastated as a result. After the Soviets left, the Taliban took over, and allowed their allies in Al Qaeda to train there.

http://www.counterpunch.org/brzezinski.html

The CIA and clowns like Brzezinski were at least partly responsible for the ruination of Afghanistan and therefore 9-11.

9-11 was blowback from another stupid CIA trick.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2010, 07:10:56 PM »
Today, a senior Canadian diplomat and a former hostage of al Qaeda in Africa had this to say about Afghanistan, speaking at a Liberal Party "renewal" conference:

Fowler spent five months as an al-Qaida hostage in western Africa in 2009 after being kidnapped while serving as the United Nations special envoy to Niger.

<<"The bottom line is that we will not prevail in Afghanistan," he said.

<<"We are simply not prepared to foot the massive price in blood and treasure which it would take to effectively colonize Afghanistan ... and replace their culture with ours, for that seems to be what we seek." >>

You know, it seems to me that I have been saying the same God-damn thing almost from the beginning.  All that was required was to administer a swift kick in the ass for 9-11 and then get the fuck out.  Instead, we get this fucking fiasco, which, like Iraq, just keeps getting worse and worse, with nothing to show for it.

Kramer

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2010, 07:25:44 PM »
Today, a senior Canadian diplomat and a former hostage of al Qaeda in Africa had this to say about Afghanistan, speaking at a Liberal Party "renewal" conference:

Fowler spent five months as an al-Qaida hostage in western Africa in 2009 after being kidnapped while serving as the United Nations special envoy to Niger.

<<"The bottom line is that we will not prevail in Afghanistan," he said.

<<"We are simply not prepared to foot the massive price in blood and treasure which it would take to effectively colonize Afghanistan ... and replace their culture with ours, for that seems to be what we seek." >>

You know, it seems to me that I have been saying the same God-damn thing almost from the beginning.  All that was required was to administer a swift kick in the ass for 9-11 and then get the fuck out.  Instead, we get this fucking fiasco, which, like Iraq, just keeps getting worse and worse, with nothing to show for it.

I guess Obama isn't as smart as you gave him credit for.

Plane

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2010, 08:58:11 PM »

  All that was required was to administer a swift kick in the ass for 9-11 and then get the fuck out. 


That was also tried , several times, by Bill Clinton. While Clinton escalated threats and rocket raids incrementally, the Al Quieda activity , recruiting , fund gathering and plans for bigger attacks clser to America continued to increase.

You are advocateing that we learn nothing from our own recent history.
What we hve learned is that capture and criminal procicution of a few conspiritors doesn't handicap a conspiracy involveing thousands very much. We tried that.

We learned that ignoreing small raids does nothing to prevent bigger attacks .We tried that.


We learned that small specificly targeted attacks on training bases and headquarters does not reduce or impede the growth of an orginisation aleady in fluential in the national government.We tried that.

WE even learned that we cannot praise and make friends with fumdimentalist religious Islamists , even tho we had gifted them with incredable amounts of money and wepons in the past.We tried that.

Summing up MT, you are advocateing that we try again everything we have tried already and seen fail , you know what we say in this country about people who try the same thing many times over again hopeing for diffrent results each time?

George W Bush , our 43rd President, got it right and his efforts resulted in a halt to the escalation and attacks of Al Quieda in the US home territory , he got it right and what works needs to be repeated , what does not work need not be repeated.

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2010, 09:41:55 PM »
, which, like Iraq, just keeps getting worse and worse

Michael do you really believe that?
Iraq just completed another election.
The Iraqi people now have Saddam gone and a democracy in place.
How can you describe that as "worse and worse"?

Even Vice President Biden recently said "Iraq could be one of the great achievements of this administration.
You're going to see 90,000 American troops come marching home by the end of the summer. You're going to
see a stable government in Iraq that is actually moving toward a representative government."
The vice president said he'd been to Iraq 17 times and visits the country every three months or so.
"I know every one of the major players in all the segments of that society" he said. "It's impressed me.
I've been impressed how they have been deciding to use the political process rather than guns to settle their differences
."

« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 09:44:45 PM by ChristiansUnited4LessGvt »
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Amianthus

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2010, 09:49:41 PM »
How can you describe that as "worse and worse"?

It's not socialism; they're not lining people up against the wall anymore. It's a tragedy.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

sirs

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2010, 11:15:50 PM »
Indeed
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2010, 11:20:46 PM »
<<Michael do you really believe that?
<<Iraq just completed another election.
<<The Iraqi people now have Saddam gone and a democracy in place.
<<How can you describe that as "worse and worse"?>>

It looks too good to be true.  Give me a little more time on that one.  If it still looks like a stable democracy in a couple of years' time, I'll probably have to admit that I called it wrong.  However, here's how I see Iraq in two or three years' time:

The oil money will be flowing out of Iraq into foreign hands.  How much of the outflow will wind up in U.S. and British pockets will never be known, but we will know how much of it remains in Iraq.  Whatever percentage the Saddam Hussein government kept from oil sales will have been reduced to a third or a fifth of the original percentage.  It's possible that in absolute terms, the revenues may have increased due to (a) higher oil prices and/or (b) increased productivity, but the share remaining in Iraq will be a hell of a lot less than what it would have been had Saddam and the Ba'ath Arab Socialist Party remained in power.

The torture chambers will be back in business and running into overtime, as the faction in power will need to defend itself against violent overthrow by the party or parties not in power.

The size of the occupying army will not have changed much, but the fiction of "troop withdrawal" will have to be matched by corresponding  increases in mercenary manpower, so the mercs will constitute a much larger proportion of the occupation forces.

<<Even Vice President Biden recently said "Iraq could be one of the great achievements of this administration.
You're going to see 90,000 American troops come marching home by the end of the summer. You're going to
see a stable government in Iraq that is actually moving toward a representative government.">>

That's more or less what I'd have said in his place.  Talk is cheap when you are in politics.  Cheap and meaningless.

<<The vice president said he'd been to Iraq 17 times and visits the country every three months or so.
"I know every one of the major players in all the segments of that society" he said. "It's impressed me.
I've been impressed how they have been deciding to use the political process rather than guns to settle their differences.">>

Well, we'll have to wait and see how long THAT goes on for and who gets screwed in the process.

Plane

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2010, 11:35:32 PM »
It is true that time is the real test.


How much time?