I'm Guessing that nobody here gives a shit about this - -

[Michael Tee]

The torture of Abu Zubaydah
http://www.truthout.org/torture-diaries-drawings-and-special-prosecutor58108

I don't understand
1.  How this can't make anyone sick
2. 

There is no No. 2.  If this didn't make people sick, then there's no real demand for punishment of those involved at any level and in fact it's quite easy to understand how everyone gets away with everything.

This is like one of those letters that I used to write in Amnesty - - nobody reads them, nobody gives a shit and nothing changes.  But we wrote them anyway.

When the hammer finally comes down on the nation in whose name such acts are sanctioned, condoned and largely passed over in silence, the Rev. Fred Phelps and I, and hopefully many others as well,  will not be crying any tears.  We won't all be on the same page, obviously, but one thing we WILL have in common, and that will be that none of us will be crying any tears.

Why did I even bother to write this post? I don't know but I feel I have to do so rather than remain silent.

[BT]

Not to be too cynical, but to rely on diaries from a man suffering from both long term and short term memory loss as proper cause to go on a fishing expedition with the feds , seems to be the equivalent of a hanging curveball the size of a grapefruit to Ryan Howard, for any lawyer worth his salt.


But other than that, you are right.

[BSB]

Torture of some form or another happens 100s of thousands of times a day, in as many locations, all over the globe.

Controlling husbands torture their wives physically and mentally. Adults cruelly torture their children with neglect, or outright abandonment. "Soldiers" from Africa, Canada, the United States, the UK, Eastern Europe, the Soviet Union, are all on record as having tortured civilians, and "enemy" combatants. Police officers from South and Central America, Mexico, Iraq, Egypt, etc., etc., torture "suspects" routinely. Adolescents, and teens, torture their peers over the internet sometimes pushing their victims to end their lives via suicide. Pol Pots regime sent children out into the countryside to torture and murder randomly. There is nothing special about your take on torture, Snowblower, except that you play at being some sort of avenger. We all can see into the dark. We don't need you to see whats going on. And we don't need you to set up the guidelines on how to handle it, or what the punishment should be, or who should be punished. And frankly, Snowblower, there is something very dark and bloody about you and your obsessions.  There is something dark, bloody, and inhumane about your fascination with torture, war, and revenge. There is in you a greater share of the very darkness you pretend to enlighten then there is within most of us. You are the other side of the same coin. The torturer's face is on one side, your face is on the other side.


BSB

[Michael Tee]

<<Torture of some form or another happens 100s of thousands of times a day, in as many locations, all over the globe.

<<Controlling husbands torture their wives physically and mentally. Adults cruelly torture their children with neglect, or outright abandonment. "Soldiers" from Africa, Canada, the United States, the UK, Eastern Europe, the Soviet Union, are all on record as having tortured civilians, and "enemy" combatants. Police officers from South and Central America, Mexico, Iraq, Egypt, etc., etc., torture "suspects" routinely. Adolescents, and teens, torture their peers over the internet sometimes pushing their victims to end their lives via suicide. Pol Pots regime sent children out into the countryside to torture and murder randomly. There is nothing special about your take on torture, Snowblower, except that you play at being some sort of avenger. We all can see into the dark. We don't need you to see whats going on. And we don't need you to set up the guidelines on how to handle it, or what the punishment should be, or who should be punished. And frankly, Snowblower, there is something very dark and bloody about you and your obsessions.  There is something dark, bloody, and inhumane about your fascination with torture, war, and revenge. There is in you a greater share of the very darkness you pretend to enlighten then there is within most of us. You are the other side of the same coin. The torturer's face is on one side, your face is on the other side.>>

We should just rip up UNCAT (UN Convention Against Torture and Cruel and Unusual Punishment?)

It's "dark and bloody" to punish torturers?   I thought it was "dark and bloody" to torture people; it seemed like a pretty good idea to rid the world of torturers - - or at least make a start on it by ridding the world of the ones we can most easily get our hands on.

And BTW:  if you can all "see into the dark," the U.S. government is sure wasting a lot of effort trying to keep it all secret.

Well, thanks for the feedback.  I don't know how representative it is, but it's a pretty strong and articulate rejection of everything I felt when I read the Abu Zubaydah article.  It really made me feel like a minority of one, except I know that can't be.  I guess more accurately it indicates the gulf between those who give a shit and those who don't.  Looks like you guys have the upper hand, for now and there isn't a God-damn thing that anyone can do about it.  Wasted my time writing that fucking post like I wasted fifteen years in IA.  Well, fuck it, c'est la vie.

[Christians4LessGvt]

Not to be too cynical, but to rely on diaries from a man suffering from both
long term and short term memory loss

Not only that BT...usually I dont like to play the "kill the messenger game"...
but since Michael seems so fond of it....well I guess it seems appropriate.

Isn't the writer of this story the same writer that got caught lying about a Karl Rove inditement,
the same writer that Salon had to remove an August 29, 2002 story about Enron from its site
after it was discovered that he plagiarized parts from the Financial Times, the same writer that
got fired from the Los Angeles Times, the same writer that had his own memoir cancelled because
of concerns over the accuracy of quotations, the same writer that is a self-admitted past drug addict,
self admitted sufferer of past bouts with mental illness and suicide attempts, the same writer that has
admitted to breaking journalistic rules, and the same writer that was convicted for grand larceny?

Plus I agree with BSB...this guy has an agenda to sensationalize the US as the "bad-guy"
while pretty much ignoring much worse behavior all over the world every day.

[Xavier_Onassis]

It's pretty lame to say that torturing this guy is okay because torture is so commonplace.

I disagree that it is commonplace, and I disagree that it is proper for the US government to use anyone as a guinea pig to see what works. I am pretty sure that this is already known, after all.

[Kramer]

The torture of Abu Zubaydah
http://www.truthout.org/torture-diaries-drawings-and-special-prosecutor58108

I don't understand
1.  How this can't make anyone sick
2. 

There is no No. 2.  If this didn't make people sick, then there's no real demand for punishment of those involved at any level and in fact it's quite easy to understand how everyone gets away with everything.

This is like one of those letters that I used to write in Amnesty - - nobody reads them, nobody gives a shit and nothing changes.  But we wrote them anyway.

When the hammer finally comes down on the nation in whose name such acts are sanctioned, condoned and largely passed over in silence, the Rev. Fred Phelps and I, and hopefully many others as well,  will not be crying any tears.  We won't all be on the same page, obviously, but one thing we WILL have in common, and that will be that none of us will be crying any tears.

Why did I even bother to write this post? I don't know but I feel I have to do so rather than remain silent.

When it comes to fiction books sometimes if the writing is really good it will bring me to tears. Just yoking... great fiction piece!

[Christians4LessGvt]

All prisons everywhere have accusations of mistreatment.

Probably almost all prisons everywhere actually have some mistreatment.
It's not an excuse....but it is reality.
Have we been 100% perfect? No, but show me prisons where everybody is happy.
Prisons here, there, everywhere...can always improve.

This author has an axe to grind....he wants to sensationalize any possible US mistakes
and leave an incorrect impression of the reality of US treatment of detainees. It's typical
media....do a big story about the rarity and pretend it's the norm.

I don't think sleep deprivation and/or waterboarding are "torture". Also torture is NOT a rare and
ill-advised flushing of a Qur'an down the toilet. It may be against a rule, but thats not "torture".

Even so...even if you think water-boarding is torture....it was applied to exactly three suspects
in the course of eight years......WhooopDeeeeeDo!

At Gitmo detainees receive 4200 calories a day with 53 individually prepared special diet meals.
Four different menus and three meals a day are offered. Halal and cultural dietary requirements
are supported. Refreshments are served in the recreation areas. All Detainees gain weight (average 18 lbs)
during custody. (Detainees on hunger strikes have gained an average of 20 lbs since going on strike.)  
Opportunity to worship is respected. There is uninterrupted prayer time. Korans are provided in nine
languages. Prayer rugs, prayer beads, and oil are provided. Call to prayer is sounded five times daily.
Each cell or Detainee area is marked with arrows signifying the direction to Mecca. All Detainees have
significant opportunities for recreation. (2-12 hours daily). Sports opportunities include soccer,
volleyball, basketball, table tennis, and board games. Detainees have access to new aerobic
exercise machines. Detainees have access to Arabic language TV shows and broadcast of World Cup
Games. Detainees are provided two full sets of clothing, have privacy in cell toilet facilities, and are
permitted regular showers. All detention blocks are dry, clean, and free of unhealthy conditions.
Ample running water and Gatorade are provided. Books and magazines are offered to all
compliant Detainees. (All Detainees regardless of status have a Koran in their cell).
Over 3500 pieces of literature are available in 13 languages.

[Michael Tee]

<<Even so...even if you think water-boarding is torture....>>

Nobody has to "think" it's torture - - the  UNCAT, a treaty which the  U.S.A. signed and is a party to, SAYS that it's torture.  Japanese officers were CONVICTED of torturing Americans and Filipinos with waterboarding.  Waterboarding is a very clear-cut instance of torture, and the U.S.A. is obligated by treaty (a) not to do it and (b) to prosecute anyone who has done it. 

<<it was applied to exactly three suspects
in the course of eight years......WhooopDeeeeeDo!>>

And you believe that?  First they said they didn't do it.  Then they said never more than three times to any suspect.  Then they admit to over a hundred times for some other guy and 83 times for this guy.  They are such fucking God-damned liars, yet whatever they are telling you at the moment, you eat it up and digest it as comfortably as if you were actually dealing with respectable honest people instead of lying, murdering scum.

[BT]

Why are you so upset about one man when it doesn't bother you one bit if millions die to "advance the revolution" ?

[kimba1]

1.  How this can't make anyone sick

easy
people don`t want to admit inflicting or seeing pain on others is also a form of entertainment.

you can`t say a lynching was not entertaining to the audience.

I`m not saying all people ,but enough to give doubts how much control one has in a interogation.

[Christians4LessGvt]

Nobody has to "think" it's torture - - the  UNCAT, a treaty which the  U.S.A. signed
and is a party to, SAYS that it's torture.  Japanese officers were CONVICTED of torturing
Americans and Filipinos with waterboarding.  Waterboarding is a very clear-cut instance .
of torture, and the U.S.A. is obligated by treaty (a) not to do it and (b) to prosecute
anyone who has done it.  And you believe that?

What and you think it was applied to all?

Anything to further the bullshit lying misrepresentation half-truths about Gitmo!

More fake outrage about anything American while looking the other way and lack of any
concern for the people who have been tortured by Castro in his prisons.

Half of the American people approved of the Bush administration's decision to use of those
techniques during the questioning of suspected terrorists.

Do you know the U.S. military waterboards hundreds of our own soldiers every year?
It is part of the conditioning Special Forces troops undergo to prepare for battle
and the possibility of capture by the enemy. In other words, it's OK for us to do
this to America's best and brightest but it's too horrible for our worst enemies?
If these "techniques" resulted in any lasting physical or mental side effects would
they be used on our own? Would it be reasonable to assume that we would have
already heard the outcry to cease these actions?

As far as UNCAT you are wrong, UNCAT prohibits cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment.
However, there is an important qualification. In consenting to both treaties, the US Senate
added a caveat: CID was to be understood in the U.S. as the cruel, inhuman and degrading
treatment prohibited under the aforementioned Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments.
As a result, one can argue that it does not undermine the contention that those protections
apply only to civilian legal proceedings, not to the detention and interrogation of alien enemy
combatants in wartime. That is, CID would be controlled by governing American constitutional law
not what activist NGOs, international law professors, and foreign regimes decided terms like
"degrading treatment" might mean.

The law in 2002 when the CIA devised its interrogation program for terrorist detainees allowed for
waterboarding.

The CIA program was created to be within the law. The interrogation program was intended to shock,
surprise and scare detainees into revealing valuable intelligence information. And that's what it did.
And it was legal. Under the 2002 version of the law...Title 18 US Code Section 2340...waterboarding
was legal because it didn't cause prolonged psychological harm. That is precisely the basis for the
August 2, 2002 legal opinion signed by then-Assistant Attorney General Jay Bybee which found
on the basis of extensive psychological evidence on waterboarding obtained in military training
in which almost 27,000 men were subjected to it ...that waterboarding didn?t cause "prolonged
psychological harm".

The wailing leftist media and liberals with an agenda conflate the 2002 law with what it was
amended to say in 2005. Sen. John McCain sponsored and Congress passed an amendment
to the law to include "cruel, inhuman and degrading" treatment in the definition of torture.
Congress had previously limited the UNCAT ratification to exclude those terms because no
one can define them. But from then on, waterboarding...at least degrading and cruel
was against the law. Not before.

About one hundred high-valued detainees have been captured since 9-11. Of those,
three have been waterboarded.

My definition of torture is simple: It involves physical or mental abuse that leaves lasting scars.
Cutting off fingers, toes, limbs...that would be torture. Forcing prisoners to play Russian roulette
that would be torture. Sticking hot pokers in the eyes of prisoners...that would be torture.

[BSB]

XO says, "It's pretty lame to say that torturing this guy is okay because torture is so commonplace."

Who said it was ok to torture that guy? If you're taking that from my post, read it again. I didn't say anything of the kind.

Moose breath says, "I guess more accurately it indicates the gulf between those who give a shit and those who don't."

As with XO, I don't know where you got the idea that I don't give a shit? I never said or implied that. I mean I've only posted my opinion on torture in here, supported by my eyewitness report of an event, about 50 times.

Try starting with a less prejudiced mind set and begin again here, "There is nothing special about your take on torture, Snowblower, except that you play at being some sort of avenger."


BSB

[sirs]

Why are you so upset about one man when it doesn't bother you one bit if millions die to "advance the revolution" ?

D'oh

[Michael Tee]

<<Why are you so upset about one man when it doesn't bother you one bit if millions die to "advance the revolution" ?>>

Well, it sure as hell would bother me if millions were tortured to death to "advance the revolution."

You're comparing apples to oranges again.

Besides, this isn't a debate about revolutionary violence, it's a debate about torture.  Torture bothers me.  Revolutionary violence would bother me in some instances, if for example, it were unnecessarily harsh or unjust.  We can have a debate about how much revolutionary violence bothers me or doesn't bother me in another thread, but I was upset about U.S. torture of helpless prisoners and regardless of my attitude towards revolutionary violence (which is nowhere near as black-and-white as you tried to portray it) I want to discuss the morality of torture, and specifically U.S. torture, which is the only kind of torture the readers of this NG can do anything about.