Author Topic: 19th Century Americans  (Read 3696 times)

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Plane

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Re: 19th Century Americans
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2010, 03:51:05 PM »
Chinese culture is far less interested in individual liberties than Western cultures are. China has had a huge population for centuries, and long before Communism, there was a collectivist mentality there. This is why China has been more successful with Communism than the USSR: it is far less diverse in every way.


Are Chineese Individuals less individual than Western individuals?

Chineese success with Communism has depended much on changeing the nature of Communism to fit the real world they live in , exactly what Marx ought to have done.

Michael Tee

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Re: 19th Century Americans
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2010, 05:30:02 PM »
<<Are Chineese Individuals less individual than Western individuals?>>

All individuals are, by definition, individual.  No individual can be any more or any less individual than any other individual.  The issue is whether Chinese society (not Chinese individuals) was historically more collective than Western society.

<<Chineese success with Communism has depended much on changeing the nature of Communism to fit the real world they live in , exactly what Marx ought to have done.>>

Both Uncle Ho and Fidel Castro were able to adapt communism to fit changing times and conditions.  I would suggest to you that capitalism also has shown some flexibility.  Marx was a man of his time just as J.P. Morgan was a man of his time.  As times changed, their respective successors  WERE able to adapt the original formulae.  It's only a capitalist myth of the Cold War that only capitalist societies are capable of adaptation whereas communist societies were prisoners of their own dogma.

Plane

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Re: 19th Century Americans
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2010, 08:11:07 PM »
<<Are Chineese Individuals less individual than Western individuals?>>

All individuals are, by definition, individual.  No individual can be any more or any less individual than any other individual. 
That is what makes the longing for freedom so universal , we may help each other a lot but we experience life as individuals, Society has no mind.
Quote
  As times changed, their respective successors  WERE able to adapt the original formulae.  It's only a capitalist myth of the Cold War that only capitalist societies are capable of adaptation whereas communist societies were prisoners of their own dogma.

And when the adaptation has come to the point of the Individual haveing the right to amass riches and own the capitalisation of industry , why still call it Communist?

China is on the same road as the US but comeing the other direction , the US Government now owns controlling intrest in GM so it is finally literally true that what is good for GM is good for the USA, In China the richest man in the world now lives , and he is a landlord for some of the most productive industrial lots in the world.

http://blogs.forbes.com/billions/2010/04/26/hong-kong-tycoon-cracks-list-of-britains-super-rich/?boxes=HomepageSpecialStorySection

Property billionaire Joseph Lau is the highest new entry on a list of the richest people in Britain compiled by the Sunday Times. Why is a Hongkonger on this Brit list?

Michael Tee

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Re: 19th Century Americans
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2010, 11:06:49 PM »
It looks like Lau's properties are in the Special Administrative Region of Hong Kong and not in China proper.  Hong Kong will continue as a Special Administrative Region for 50 years from the date of the handover (1999, IIRC, we were there visiting that year) but I don't think you are going to find billionaires like that owning valuable property outside the SAR anywhere else in China.  I stand to be corrected, though.

kimba1

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Re: 19th Century Americans
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2010, 11:40:12 PM »
thier is much misunderstanding about the chinese. like the subject of diversity
example think of all the charateristics and stereotypes that you know of chinese people and you`ll might notice not one chinese person does all that.

even the stereptypes conflict, people who are unsophisticated and backwards but excel at math and good with technology.
if that isn`t a good example how diverse we are I don`t what is.

but to be honest most chinese in the U.S. don`t qualify as an example of china
remember the majority came here to not get killed by the communist hoards.
over 60% are taishan the poorest and most backwards kind of chinese who are barely smart enough to use for labor.
far from the cream of the crop

in the u.s. the term would be proud line of cousins

Plane

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Re: 19th Century Americans
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2010, 11:42:54 PM »
It looks like Lau's properties are in the Special Administrative Region of Hong Kong and not in China proper.  Hong Kong will continue as a Special Administrative Region for 50 years from the date of the handover (1999, IIRC, we were there visiting that year) but I don't think you are going to find billionaires like that owning valuable property outside the SAR anywhere else in China.  I stand to be corrected, though.


Are the residents of Hong Kong citizens of China?

You are pretty demanding , I consider my point proven already China is useing the expert Capitolists of Hong Kong to operate their economy .

But
Quote
I stand to be corrected, though.
You certainly do.

Book title;
The Jews of the East: The Commercial Stories of Fifty Wenshou Businessmen



Is about fifty successfull businessmen of the Wenshou region , Not inside Hong Kong.

BTW I really really liked that title , I wanted your comment on it so badly....!

Plane

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Re: 19th Century Americans
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2010, 11:48:15 PM »


Have you heard of the Wenshou?

Those National Geographic articles made much of them.

Is the Government mostly Han , or something elese?

kimba1

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Re: 19th Century Americans
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2010, 11:53:44 PM »
don`t know about them

over 70% of the chinese are han
han is such a general term I don`t really know what it means, I`m han
I got no idea what that means

Plane

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Re: 19th Century Americans
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2010, 12:15:17 AM »
don`t know about them

over 70% of the chinese are han
han is such a general term I don`t really know what it means, I`m han
I got no idea what that means

Me neither , the guys I know who are Chineese and live here originate in Singapore. Great guys they are , but not much sample for knowing a whole nation from.

kimba1

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Re: 19th Century Americans
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2010, 02:11:37 AM »
what little I know about singapore is it`s a high tech low unemployment , low crime country . because of that extremely boring . most citizen vacation outside of the country.

but don`t tag or you`ll end up like michael fey

Michael Tee

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Re: 19th Century Americans
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2010, 11:32:21 AM »
"The Jews of the East" is a very old term for describing overseas Chinese in the rest of Asia.  My dad knew it from his own childhood.  I saw it in TIME magazine during the 1950s in the reports of anti-Chinese rioting in Indonesia where mobs invaded the business districts of many cities, torching Chinese business establishments and murdering about 2,000 Chinese, including preganant women who were disembowelled.  The babies were cut out of their wombs and thrown into the flames.  This was so similar to what had happened to the Jews in Eastern Europe - - the violence and hatred of the mobs, the people who have no homeland, or left it behind, who show more enterprise and ingenuity than the locals and always seem to know how to make money despite being aliens (hard work and perseverence) and so excite their resentment (maybe provoking it by alien ways which are seen as rudeness by the more laid-back locals) and using their own language, intermarrying only among themselves till the rage among the ignorant morons whom they have to live with boils over - - the parallels between the overseas Chinese and the Jews were eerie.

In terms of North American Chinese, I believe we are seeing only the cream of the cream - - the math whizzes, etc., are NOT representative of the typical Chinese back on the mainland.  They are representative of the kind of people who can satisfy the immigration officers of the U.S.A. or Canada that they are worthy of being admitted to these hallowed shores.  Millions apply, few are chosen.  Don't think the chosen few are exactly the same as the rest who applied.  That would be a huge mistake.  On average I can't see how the Chinese would be any smarter or dumber than anyone else.  We selected the best of the best, and it works to our benefit.

kimba1

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Re: 19th Century Americans
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2010, 12:22:40 PM »
not quite best of the best

don`t forget the immigrant scenerio
as a new any country your family will not be subject to local customs and the child will focus on study more than the locals.

the one true connection of any child that does well in school is study time.

kill the social life and you will have a better student.

is it healthy ? no

but who cares straight A`s always trump playtime.

Michael Tee

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Re: 19th Century Americans
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2010, 06:08:07 PM »
<<don`t forget the immigrant scenerio
<<as a new any country your family will not be subject to local customs and the child will focus on study more than the locals.>>

I think the success of Chinese immigrant kids in North American schools is due to two factors:  the social factor that you just mentioned but also the selection factor, that they or their parents were pretty much the cream of the gene pool or they wouldn't even have applied, and then from those who did apply, our immigration officers picked only the top candidates.

Plane

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Re: 19th Century Americans
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2010, 09:41:11 AM »
"The Jews of the East" is a very old term for describing overseas Chinese in the rest of Asia. 


I had not heard of those ugly incidents. Sorry.

But that Book is not on that subject.

It is about the most successfull Chineese in China , where it is no longer any disadvantage to be wealthy . There is a real business class forming , even though the aristocrats are still the government class.

Michael Tee

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Re: 19th Century Americans
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2010, 11:59:20 AM »
I'm going to read that book because it sounds interesting.  But to title it "The Jews of Asia" is a complete misuse of the phrase, which was intended to describe only the OVERSEAS Chinese, living and prospering as hated aliens in societies much less ancient and developed than their own, very much like the Jews of Europe. 

To use the title to describe Chinese living in China makes no sense at all.