How's That Socialism Working for ya?

[Kramer]

http://www.cnbc.com/id/36826735
Now Spain is failing

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/blog/2010/apr/28/greece-financial-crisis
You all know about Greece


Sure thing Barry, let's follow Europe's example. Only a stupid person or a committed socialist would take us down this path!

[Michael Tee]

Two "socialist" countries in trouble, suddenly the whole socialist concept is in trouble.  What about capitalist Argentina which totally failed, repudiated its foreign debt and created a whole new currency?  Doesn't that PROVE that capitalism is in big trouble?

Why are you always so crazy and irrational?  Why not follow Communist China, the most successful current example of economic growth and institute a Communist dictatorship to tell businessmen exactly how much freedom they are to be allowed today and tomorrow and to execute any businessmen they feel are taking bribes or adulterating their products?

If the "failure" of "socialist" Spain and Greece (which actually seem to have a lot of private enterprise between them) are indicative of the "failure" of socialism, doesn't the survival of Norway and Sweden prove the viability, if not the superiority, of socialism?

You are just writing nonsense with no thought at all behind it.

[Kramer]

Two "socialist" countries in trouble, suddenly the whole socialist concept is in trouble.  What about capitalist Argentina which totally failed, repudiated its foreign debt and created a whole new currency?  Doesn't that PROVE that capitalism is in big trouble?

Why are you always so crazy and irrational?  Why not follow Communist China, the most successful current example of economic growth and institute a Communist dictatorship to tell businessmen exactly how much freedom they are to be allowed today and tomorrow and to execute any businessmen they feel are taking bribes or adulterating their products?

If the "failure" of "socialist" Spain and Greece (which actually seem to have a lot of private enterprise between them) are indicative of the "failure" of socialism, doesn't the survival of Norway and Sweden prove the viability, if not the superiority, of socialism?

You are just writing nonsense with no thought at all behind it.

really? so in your mind Obama is making America more financially sound than prior to his taking office.

[Michael Tee]

<<really? so in your mind Obama is making America more financially sound than prior to his taking office.>>

That isn't what I said.  But if he really does wind down the wars that Bush started and implements REAL health care reform, yes he will make America more financially sound, by cutting the costs of poor health care, by eliminating the wastage of multiple competing insurance companies duplication of efforts and siphoning off of premium payments into the pockets of Steve Hemsley and his ilk; and by regulation of the financial industry which has bled the country dry.

[Kramer]

<<really? so in your mind Obama is making America more financially sound than prior to his taking office.>>

That isn't what I said.  But if he really does wind down the wars that Bush started and implements REAL health care reform, yes he will make America more financially sound, by cutting the costs of poor health care, by eliminating the wastage of multiple competing insurance companies duplication of efforts and siphoning off of premium payments into the pockets of Steve Hemsley and his ilk; and by regulation of the financial industry which has bled the country dry.

Are you really that stupid? I just got my health care insurance renewal and it went up 17%. The OBAMA Bill past over a month ago and what did it do for me - SHIT that's what.

[Michael Tee]

<<Are you really that stupid? I just got my health care insurance renewal and it went up 17%. The OBAMA Bill past over a month ago and what did it do for me - SHIT that's what.>>

Huh?  I didn't say that Obama's health-care bill in its present form is any great hell.  It's compromised on the most fundamental principles and it stinks.   Its only value is as a foot in the door - - it's a START.  What they need is single-payer universal coverage, state-run, and if he's got the balls to deliver on that, further on down the road, THEN he will be in a position to save the country and its citizens a shitload of money.

BTW, Mr. Free Enterprise Capitalism, if your insurance company jacked up the premium 17% with no corresponding increase in their exposure (I'm assuming you did not develop some expensive disease in the interim) then what about the Miracle of Competitive Enterprise?  Shouldn't some other health-care insurer in this wonderful free market of yours rush into the breach with an offer to insure you the same or better than your present carrier, ONLY WITH A MUCH LOWER PREMIUM?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!  You should live so long - - sucka! 

Before you question how stupid I really am, you should take a good look at yourself - - singing the praises of a so-called Free Enterprise system that fucks YOU in the ass every time you bend over.

[Kramer]

<<Are you really that stupid? I just got my health care insurance renewal and it went up 17%. The OBAMA Bill past over a month ago and what did it do for me - SHIT that's what.>>

Huh?  I didn't say that Obama's health-care bill in its present form is any great hell.  It's compromised on the most fundamental principles and it stinks.   Its only value is as a foot in the door - - it's a START.  What they need is single-payer universal coverage, state-run, and if he's got the balls to deliver on that, further on down the road, THEN he will be in a position to save the country and its citizens a shitload of money.

BTW, Mr. Free Enterprise Capitalism, if your insurance company jacked up the premium 17% with no corresponding increase in their exposure (I'm assuming you did not develop some expensive disease in the interim) then what about the Miracle of Competitive Enterprise?  Shouldn't some other health-care insurer in this wonderful free market of yours rush into the breach with an offer to insure you the same or better than your present carrier, ONLY WITH A MUCH LOWER PREMIUM?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!  You should live so long - - sucka! 

Before you question how stupid I really am, you should take a good look at yourself - - singing the praises of a so-called Free Enterprise system that fucks YOU in the ass every time you bend over.

yeah right Obama and his 10 pens signed it into law and says OK all your health care issues are fixed -- what a lying pile of shit he is. My point went over your head anyway, but let make this easy for a 6 year old to understand. The reason health insurance is so high is because the government got involved and fucked it up in the first place. Fathead Kennedy not only ruined Mary Jo's life he ruined health care in America, him along with other moronic politicians. I can go to any hospital and negotiate a better deal than insurance companies can get. Hell when I was a kid nobody heard about insurance -- we went to the doc paid and that was it. Thank you Teddy you shit head. At least now that steaming pile can't vote for any more crap laws and dying was the best thing he ever did for this nation.

[Plane]

You are just writing nonsense with no thought at all behind it.

    Now, now, don't complain, we will allow you your turn at the same thing.

[Plane]

"by cutting the costs of poor health care,....."

Ok ,I wonder what you mean there.

What is going to happen in this direction?

[Plane]

"...by eliminating the wastage of multiple competing insurance companies duplication of efforts and siphoning off of premium payments into the pockets of Steve Hemsley and his ilk;........."

And on that.

Wouldn't twice as many insurance companys improve competition ?

If they were struggling to maintain a client base wouldn't they offer sweeter deals to attract the customers they were competing for?

Lifting the barrier that prevents us from buying insurance from companys across the state line might accomplish this in a single stroke, but it would be a loss of states rights power.

I think the states are about to loose this power anyway , perhaps they should consider forming large blocks of states that co-operate or something.

[Michael Tee]

<<yeah right Obama  . . . signed it into law and says OK all your health care issues are fixed -- what a lying pile of shit he is. >>

No, that's just not true.  Obama was for single-payer when he was a Senator and compromised by giving that up.  The bill originally had a public option and that's gone too.  Everybody knows this bill was compromised to get it passed and nobody is claiming that this bill fixes all health-care problems.  How the hell can it when it's missing both single-payer and public options?  The bill is a sell-out to Big Pharma and the insurance lobby.  It's only a start, and a poor one at that.

<<My point went over your head anyway, but let make this easy for a 6 year old to understand. The reason health insurance is so high is because the government got involved and fucked it up in the first place. >>

How'd they do that?  My impression was that it's ruined because of ludicrous greed on the part of hospitals, doctors, pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies all trying to get rich on the backs of the sick and the dying, and this is kind of hard to do because sick and dying people have the greatest need for services and the least ability to pay for them.

<<Fathead Kennedy not only ruined Mary Jo's life he ruined health care in America, him along with other moronic politicians.>>

OK so what exactly did they do?  How exactly did they ruin it?  Did Fathead Kennedy or his ghost whisper into your insurance company's ear, "Hey jack up Kramer's premium by 17% this year?"  Did your insurers overcharge you even though it broke their hearts to do this to you, because some other moronic politicians told them they had to do it?

<<I can go to any hospital and negotiate a better deal than insurance companies can get. >>

Well, with all due respect, the insurance companies will never tell you WHAT deal they negotiated with your hospitals, so you have absolutely no idea whether any deal you negotiate with them is better or worse than what your insurance company got.  Since better deals are usually negotiated by buyers with superior buying power, I have serious doubts about you being able to negotiate a better deal with your hospital than your insurance company can, unless your insurance company is on the verge of going bust and your hospital knows all about it.

<<Hell when I was a kid nobody heard about insurance -- we went to the doc paid and that was it. >>

Yeah that's fine if all you needed was a check-up and some shots.  And even then there are some families that can't even afford that, with the economy being in the state that it now is.

<<Thank you Teddy you shit head. At least now that steaming pile can't vote for any more crap laws and dying was the best thing he ever did for this nation.>>

With all due respect, I think your anger is somewhat misdirected.  It wasn't Teddy who jacked up your premium by 17% and the money isn't going into Teddy's pocket or even Uncle Sam's pocket, it's going into the pocket of some shit-ass greed-head named Steve Hemsley or some other clown just like him who owns your fucking ass because he owns the insurance company you gotta go through to get the health care you need.  It's a known fact that Canadians pay less and get more where health care is concerned.  In fact EVERYBODY  pays less and gets more, because the U.S.A. has the world's HIGHEST per-capita expenditure on health care and yet its citizens rank way below no. 1 position on virtually every known measure of the quality of health care received.

You need to face reality.  Teddy and the other politicians DO NOT raise your premiums 17% for no good reason.  This is just the greedy bastards - - the free-enterprise capitalists, if you will - -  who own your insurance company.  THEY are responsible for your problem because they love to take in your money in premiums but they hate to pay it out as benefits.  How fucking stupid do you have to be, not to be able to see this, and to continue thinking that it is Ted Kennedy or his ghost whose hand is in your pocket?

Every fucking politician on either side of the aisle who votes against Canadian-style health care insurance is doing this for one reason and for one reason only:  THEY ARE BEING PAID OFF BY THE FUCKING INSURANCE INDUSTRY.    It does not get any simpler than this.  There is no other reason - - not in the real world - - to vote against Canadian-style health care insurance.

And guys like you are the biggest fucking suckers in the world because you can't see this.

[Michael Tee]

<<Ok ,I wonder what you mean  "by cutting the costs of poor health care....."

<<What is going to happen in this direction?>>

The costs of poor health care are hidden.  They are the costs of absenteeism to industry, the increased cost of treating advanced illnesses which could have been nipped in the bud with more or better routine physicals and monitoring, the social costs of disintegrating families who have needlessly lost a key family member at the wrong time in a dependent's life, etc. 

What I meant to say was that if the health-care crisis can be resolved and better health-care provided, then all of these other costs will be saved, and the net effect could be a positive rather than a negative hit on the Treasury.

[Michael Tee]

<<Wouldn't twice as many insurance companys improve competition ?>>

ROTFLMFAO.  Yeah, it would if they figured the way to make money was by competing one against the other to see who could offer the lowest prices to the consumers for offering basically the same deals.  Tell me, how much competition do you see amongst the companies presently in the game?  Kramer was already bitching about being jacked up 17% on his premiums for no reason.  Do you think he's going to find somebody to give him his old rate back so easily?

<<If they were struggling to maintain a client base wouldn't they offer sweeter deals to attract the customers they were competing for?>>

They've already GOT a client base, why should they fight each other by cutting prices?  It's a race to the bottom.  Do YOU want to race to the bottom?  Do you go around offering your labour at lower prices to other employers to get more work?  You're a union man, aren't you?  Would you like it if your union bosses were shopping your labour around to other employers, offering a LOWER wage?  Usually the union members try to get higher wages, no?  By collective bargaining?  Why don't the insurance companies adopt a similar reasoning?  Formally or informally, hold the line on premiums (or even, as Kramer has attested, raise them) so everybody can make more money.  It's not as if most people can do without health insurance, is it?

Your faith in competition as a means of lowering insurance premiums is comical and innocent at the same time.  The short answer to your second question is, No, they won't offer sweeter deals.  There are already plenty of companies competing and none of them are offering sweeter deals.  They are all making very nice profits, which can only be achieved by (a) maximizing what they take in and (b) minimizing what they pay out.  This is pretty basic stuff, plane.  They're in the business to make a profit.  It's not their problem whether you live or die, whether you are sick or healthy - - they need that profit and it only comes from higher premiums and lower pay-outs. 

[Plane]

".....rank way below no. 1 position on virtually every known measure of the quality of health care received...."

That relates to the real question directly , but it isn't the real question.

If all nations had the same system of health care there would most certainly be regional differences anyway.

What about the proposals is an approach to the best health care that fits the USA?

We don't seem convinced that a carbon copy of the Canadian plan is what we need  , perhaps because of a peevish pride that we are not Canadian , perhaps because the Canadian plan doesn't look as if it woud work scaled up 10 times bigger. , or cope to fit American Society.

  Neither does Obamacare seem to be a copy of anything that was ever proven anywhere , its single good feature is that it starts on the single first step on the thousand mile journy twards something new. This modest virtue is coming at greater cost than the tipical war.

[Plane]

<<Wouldn't twice as many insurance companys improve competition ?>>

ROTFLMFAO.  Yeah, it would if they figured the way to make money was by competing one against the other to see who could offer the lowest prices to the consumers for offering basically the same deals.  Tell me, how much competition do you see amongst the companies presently in the game?   

Well ,I have had the same job a long time , since I work for the Federal Government  I am a part of one of the largest client pools in the nation.

    I have changed companys twice, neither time recently , I am pretty happy with the company that I have now.

    To Qualify to cover me a company must satisfy the requirements of my employer this includes that all members of my family are covered reguardless of pre-existing condition.

    There are more than ten companys that qualify and attempt to cover federal workers in Georgia , they capture market share by offering better coverage or by offering lower price.

   Thus my health care insurance is put to auction once each year. The race to the bottom is a phenominon that benefits us buyers.

     This is unlike the situation of persons who must buy their health care individually or as small groups , there is much less of a pool of contributors to attract the insuror and wring favorable terms from them.

     I can see how compileing the whole nation into a single pool of insurance buyers might have benefits and still might allow individual choice between competing insurance companys , but not if there are only a few companys allowed to play the game , bid for our attention and offer themselves at auction.