Author Topic: lawful contact  (Read 8149 times)

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Universe Prince

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lawful contact
« on: April 30, 2010, 07:38:40 AM »
http://reason.com/archives/2010/04/29/mysteries-of-an-immigration-la
         After signing the new law requiring police to check out people who may be illegal immigrants, Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer was asked how the cops are supposed to know when someone should be screened. "I don't know," she replied. "I do not know what an illegal immigrant looks like."

No kidding. But she has a lot of company in her ignorance. When I called University of Arizona law professor Marc Miller and told him I wasn't sure what some of the law's provisions mean, he replied, "Neither is anyone else on the planet." We will find out what it means after it takes effect, not before.

The law says cops must inquire anytime "reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States." Since most of the state's illegal immigrants are Latinos, the natural impulse of police may be to interrogate every Latino with whom they cross paths.

[...]

[Kris Kobach, a law professor at the University of Missouri-Kansas City who helped draft the text] told The Washington Examiner that cops can ask for immigration information only when they have "lawful contact" with someone—when "the officer is already engaged in some detention of an individual because he's violated some other law."

In fact, the law doesn't define the crucial term. One of the dictionary definitions of "contact" is "immediate proximity," which suggests that anytime a possible illegal immigrant comes in sight of a cop, the cop has a legal duty to check her papers.

Law professor Miller says "lawful contact" could also mean any normal interaction a cop has with ordinary people. If a Hispanic asks a patrolman for directions, she could expose herself to immigration questions. If an officer walks up to someone and starts a conversation without detaining him—something police are allowed to do—he may have established "lawful contact."
         
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Plane

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Re: lawful contact
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2010, 06:17:16 PM »
Is it against the rules for police to interview , or just talk to anyone that they find as they patroll?

sirs

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Re: lawful contact
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2010, 06:21:12 PM »
Under this AZ law, it is ILLEGAL to racially profile.  It is ILLEGAL to ask someone for their ID simply because they look hispanic

Simple as that
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: lawful contact
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2010, 07:01:57 PM »
Had a friend get a DUI because he unwisely asked a cop for directions after having a six-pack of Bud.


kimba1

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Re: lawful contact
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2010, 07:29:27 PM »
if you look at it another way.
this laws is redundant since pretty much officer are supposed to ask ID anyway.though not really trying to verify citizenship it would be found after the ID is called in.

depending how reliable arizona database is.

sirs

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Re: lawful contact
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2010, 07:34:52 PM »
You're right Kimba, this law is redundant.  EVERYTIME I've ever been pulled over and EVERTIME a friend or family has been stopped by the police, the 1st thing asked for is a valid ID/Driver's License

This law simply has the state supporting the police officers & local law enforcment of enforcing exiting law, specifically, existing Federal Immigration Law
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

kimba1

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Re: lawful contact
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2010, 07:47:00 PM »
wouldn`t this mean the borden would be on the database to find illegals?
but that would also mean alot of people are gonna be delayed.


sirs

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Re: lawful contact
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2010, 07:55:10 PM »
Not if they have a valid ID.  Again, who are we talking about here??  LEGAL immigrants, by and LARGE have valid ID, almost universally it being a Driver's Lincese.  There's no delay, of any kind, with a valid ID

Will there be a sliver of legal immigrants who don't have a valid ID?  Probably.  Does that mean we stop enforcing exiting immigration law because it might delay a tiny fraction of legal immigrants stopped for some infraction?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: lawful contact
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2010, 10:05:34 PM »
?Lawful Contact? did not need to be redefined in Arizona illegal immigration bill
April 30, 2010 at 11:54 am by Steve McGough   

Once available, I took a few minutes to read the illegal immigration legislation provided by the Arizona legislature. I certainly knew what lawful contact meant, but some thought it vague enough to result in random ID checks.

Now, the Arizona state legislature has clarified what they meant by lawful contact. They did not have to do that.

My post from April 26 provided the links to the legislation and the summary. The bill uses normal statuary language and references lawful contact. I?m not a lawyer, but it?s my understanding those words are in reference to the normal lawful duties of law enforcement officers. These may include, but are not limited to, traffic stops with probable cause (speeding, broken tail-light, expired tags?), domestic dispute calls, drug investigations, and checking on suspicious activity ? including running north through the desert just north of the border with backpacks in the middle of the night.

To make it even more clear, a lawful contact is one that is authorized, sanctioned, or not forbidden by law. Picking out a person from a crowd and asking for their ID because they ?look brown? is not authorized or sanctioned, and is forbidden by law.

For some reason, the Arizona state legislature thought they needed to clarify the definition of lawful contact. Byron York at the Washington Examiner notes the state has ?fixed? the language.

The first [change] concerns the phrase ?lawful contact,? which is contained in this controversial portion of the bill: ?For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency?where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person?? Although drafters of the law said the intent of ?lawful contact? was to specify situations in which police have stopped someone because he or she was suspected of violating some other law ? like a traffic stop ? critics said it would allow cops to pick anyone out of a crowd and ?demand their papers.?

So now, in response to those critics, lawmakers have removed ?lawful contact? from the bill and replaced it with ?lawful stop, detention or arrest.? In an explanatory note, lawmakers added that the change ?stipulates that a lawful stop, detention or arrest must be in the enforcement of any other law or ordinance of a county, city or town or this state.?
?
The second change concerns the word ?solely.?  In a safeguard against racial profiling, the law contained the phrase, ?The attorney general or county attorney shall not investigate complaints that are based solely on race, color or national origin.?  Critics objected to that, too, arguing again that it would not prevent but instead lead to racial profiling.  So lawmakers have taken out the word ?solely.?


Ed Morrissey over at the newly-themed Hot Air thinks they should have clarified this in the first place and known the open border crowds would use the ?vague? language as a racism cry.

I don?t agree. I don?t think this will ?make it all better.? The Arizona legislature is quickly going to find out the change in the language will mean nothing. The pressure from the open border lefties will continue and there is no way in hell the president of the United States is going to step out and retract his original statements or say, ?great, they fixed it, let?s move on.?

Arizona made this move specifically to address the over-reaction by President Obama, the mayors of sanctuary cities including San Francisco?s Gavin Newsom, and the rest of the open border lefties. Do they honestly think this will result in approval? United States residents ? and especially the residents of Arizona ? were firmly behind the legislation as written. They knew what it meant.

--------------------------------

Exit question. Where else in Arizona state law ? or any other state ? is the phrase lawful contact used? Will this cause an issue in other pieces of legislation in Arizona that use those two words?


Not that this will appease those who chose to remain ignorant of the law.  Semantics does tend to be a fun place to hide
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Universe Prince

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Re: lawful contact
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2010, 11:29:55 PM »

Is it against the rules for police to interview , or just talk to anyone that they find as they patroll?


No, and no one said it was.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

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Re: lawful contact
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2010, 11:31:04 PM »

Under this AZ law, it is ILLEGAL to racially profile.  It is ILLEGAL to ask someone for their ID simply because they look hispanic

Simple as that


And that means it will never happen... but only if you're naive.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

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Re: lawful contact
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2010, 11:32:10 PM »

Is it against the rules for police to interview , or just talk to anyone that they find as they patroll?


No, and no one said it was.
   

     So before this law , what did city and state police do when they had a reasonable suspicion that a person might possibly be an Illeagal alein?

Universe Prince

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Re: lawful contact
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2010, 11:42:10 PM »

So before this law , what did city and state police do when they had a reasonable suspicion that a person might possibly be an Illeagal alein?


I have no idea. I would guess nothing or they would not feel the need for this new law.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

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Re: lawful contact
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2010, 11:44:49 PM »

So before this law , what did city and state police do when they had a reasonable suspicion that a person might possibly be an Illeagal alein?


I have no idea. I would guess nothing or they would not feel the need for this new law.

I think this law makes a statement more than it makes a change in the situation.

Universe Prince

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Re: lawful contact
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2010, 11:49:35 PM »

I think this law makes a statement more than it makes a change in the situation.


Clearly you and I disagree.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--