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BT

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Before - and After - Iraq
« on: November 24, 2006, 12:35:38 AM »
Before - and After - Iraq
By Victor Davis Hanson

"Our own successful three-week war, but their failed three-year peace."

Such a self-serving disclaimer might best sum up the change of heart of several neoconservative former supporters of the Iraq war - at least according to interviews that appear in the current issues of Vanity Fair and the New Yorker magazines.

Some of these pundits and policy gurus now having second and third thoughts had called for the American ouster of Saddam Hussein as early as 1998. These days, apparently in hindsight, they question whether the present plagued occupation even justified the effective three-week war of 2003.

Americans themselves have made the same dramatic about-face. They once approved of the war by a 70 percent majority. Three years later, they think it was a mistake by almost the same wide margin. Like the pundits, the public follows the pulse of the battlefield - which now seems to be reported solely as a story of improvised explosive devices and sectarian suicide bombing.

But forget that "gotcha" Beltway buzz. Instead, let's re-examine the now-orphaned policy of bringing democracy to the Middle East - not the fickle parents who abandoned it. How, in other words, did we get to Iraq?

Taking out Saddam Hussein was not dreamed up - as is sometimes alleged - by sneaky supporters of Israel. Nor did oil-hungry CEOs or Halliburton puppeteers pull strings in the shadows to get us in. And the go-ahead wasn't given merely on the strength of trumped-up fears of weapons of mass destruction: The U.S. Congress authorized the war on 23 diverse counts, from Iraq's violation of the 1991 armistice to its record of giving both money and sanctuary to terrorists.

George W. Bush resolved to democratize Iraq also as a way to confront three grim facts of our recent past.

First, the United States had been far too friendly with atrocious regimes in the Middle East. And when bloodletting inevitably broke out, either internally or between aggressive regimes, too often we cynically played one side off the other. Or we backed repugnant insurgents, with little thought of the "blowback" that would result. We outsourced sophisticated arms and training to radical Islamists fighting against the Soviet-backed Afghan government. We hoped the murderous Saddam might check the murderous Iranian theocracy - and then again sold arms to the mullahs during the Iran-Contra affair.

We breezily called for an uprising of Shiites and Kurds only to abandon them to be slaughtered by Saddam after the first Gulf War. We cynically gave the Mubarak dynasty of Egypt billions in protection money to behave. While we thought we were achieving short-term expediency, American policy only increased long-term instability by not pressuring these tyrants to reform failed governments.

Second, at key moments in the 1980s and '90s, the United States signaled that it would appease its terrorist enemies rather than engage in the difficult work of uprooting them. We did little other than file an indictment or shoot a missile at the killers who murdered American citizens, diplomats and soldiers in East Africa, Lebanon, New York City, Saudi Arabia and Yemen. Leaving Lebanon, scurrying out of Somalia, and continually flying through Saddam's skies for 12 long years without removing him only cemented the image of an uncertain America.

Third, September 11 changed the way the U.S. looked at the status quo in the Middle East. That attack was the work of terrorists who were enabled by our autocratic clients in the Middle East, and emboldened by our previous inaction. In response, Iraq was an effort to end both the cynical realism and the convenient appeasement of the past - and so to address the much larger problems of the Middle East that, if left alone, could lead to another large-scale terrorist attack in the United States.

Whatever one thinks of our mistakes after Saddam was toppled, those three facts remain central to American foreign policy. Saudi subsidies to jihadists, Pakistani sanctuary for them, and Egyptian propaganda are all symptoms of these dictatorships hedging their bets - hoping their bought terrorists don't turn on them for their own failures and illegitimacy.

Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri will still connive to bring the new caliphate to Afghanistan, Iraq and beyond. And they won't be stopped by either cruise missiles or court subpoenas, but only by a resolute United States and Middle Eastern societies that elect their own leaders and live with the results.

We can demonize President Bush and former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld all we want, or wish they presented their views in a kindlier and more artful fashion. We can wish that the United States were better at training Iraqis and killing terrorists to secure Iraq. But the same general mess in the Middle East will still confront Bush's and Rumsfeld's successors.

And long after the present furor over Iraq dies down, the idea of trying to help democratic reformers fight terrorists, and to distance America from failed regimes that are antithetical to our values, simply will not go away.

That tough idealism will stay - because in the end it is the only right and smart thing to do.

Victor Davis Hanson is a classicist and historian at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, and author, most recently, of "A War Like No Other: How the Athenians and Spartans Fought the Peloponnesian War." You can reach him by e-mailing author@victorhanson.com.
(C) 2006 Tribune Media Services, Inc.

Page Printed from: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/11/before_and_after_iraq.html at November 23, 2006 - 10:34:32 PM CST

Michael Tee

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2006, 02:03:22 AM »
Good Bush propaganda.  First couple of paragraphs - - ridicule neocons who baled on the war.  They're an easy target, 'cause everybody hates 'em now:  the liberals always hated them and the conservatives hate 'em for not singing the "stay the course" hymn any more.  Make 'em sound like fickle, feather-brained idiots - - "second and third thoughts" and to make sure everyone understands just how perfidious these guys really are, throw in (a) that they backed the overthrow of Saddam as far back as 1998, (b) their present doubts are "apparently in hindsight" (hindsight is always a BAD thing to conservatives, who, once having formed an opinion are expected to hold it to their dying day,) and of course (c) that they are "self-serving" (critics of the government always have an agenda - - it is only the Bush administration whose motives are pure and above reproach.)

Classic example of "attack the messenger."  Notice, class, not a single word so far about how things are going in Iraq, whether America was "lied into" the war or not, how the killing of over half a million Iraqis can possibly be a good thing for Iraq.  No - - just the perfidy, the frivolity, the selfishness of the doubting neo-cons.  What little bastards they are.  Why we should hate them.

But it's even worse than we thought:

<<Americans themselves have made the same dramatic about-face. They once approved of the war by a 70 percent majority. Three years later, they think it was a mistake by almost the same wide margin. >>

Holy shit!  It's not just the doubting neo-cons.  It's the American people themselves!!!  Those ungrateful bastards!!!  They're just as fickle and volatile as those fucking neo-cons.  How DARE they?  Just because their tax money and their children's life-blood runs down the tubes, WHAT on God's green earth gives them the God-damn fucking right to change their minds after three years of lies, broken promises, empty boasts, bullshit and still more lies???

The explanation, apparently, is quite simple.  It seems that the American people (and their "pundits")  - - have been "following the pulse of the battlefield."  In other words, they have been watching the news instead of listening to their Leader's version of it.  But the news is focused on unimportant trivialities like bombing and killing and torturing and disappearing and human bodies turning up in grotesquely tortured and mutilated condition all over Baghdad and Baqouba and Basra and all those other places starting with a "B" and you never get any really, really serious news out of Iraq like, I mean the TomKat wedding and the new crop of Christmas blockbusters.

But then - - SUDDENLY - - just as the writer gets to this crucial point about how the fickle and capricious American people in their unfathomable stupidity are obsessing over "the pulse of the battlefield" - - - WHOOOOSH!  the guy loses interest in the subject and as capriciously as any fucking neocon, turns on a dime:

<<But forget that "gotcha" Beltway buzz. >>

In other words, having administered a severe thrashing to not only the doubting neo-cons but to the American people themselves AND "their" pundits - - basically for having changed their minds about Iraq after listening to three years of government lies and bullshit about it - - we're not gonna talk about THAT any more. 

In other words, "I finished trashing the messengers.  Why do we need to talk about their message now?"

So the guy, basically, having turned up nothing (except a lot of venomous ad hominem innuendo) against the doubting neo-cons and the 70% of Americans who don't support their (the author's and Bush's) war, now has broached a new subject:  "bringing democracy to Iraq."

And here's where I knock it off and turn in for the night.

BT

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2006, 02:27:43 AM »
I don't think that was the point of his column at all.

Quote
But the same general mess in the Middle East will still confront Bush's and Rumsfeld's successors.

What mess? The same mess we have had a hand in maintaining for many decades.

Quote
Whatever one thinks of our mistakes after Saddam was toppled, those three facts remain central to American foreign policy. Saudi subsidies to jihadists, Pakistani sanctuary for them, and Egyptian propaganda are all symptoms of these dictatorships hedging their bets - hoping their bought terrorists don't turn on them for their own failures and illegitimacy.

Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri will still connive to bring the new caliphate to Afghanistan, Iraq and beyond. And they won't be stopped by either cruise missiles or court subpoenas, but only by a resolute United States and Middle Eastern societies that elect their own leaders and live with the results.





And you,  like the majority American people are quite content to put the problem off until another day.

That was the point. You chose to miss it.

Sweet dreams.

Universe Prince

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2006, 02:32:58 AM »

And long after the present furor over Iraq dies down, the idea of trying to help democratic reformers fight terrorists, and to distance America from failed regimes that are antithetical to our values, simply will not go away.

That tough idealism will stay - because in the end it is the only right and smart thing to do.
 

We will not achieve that idealism until we stop trying to make it happen by military force. And stopping that is the right and smart thing to do.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BT

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2006, 02:36:33 AM »
Quote
We will not achieve that idealism until we stop trying to make it happen by military force. And stopping that is the right and smart thing to do.

You present your opinion as if it were fact.
Can you not point to one instance where conflicts in ideology were solved at the point of a bayonet?

I can.


sirs

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2006, 11:53:52 AM »
Great article Bt.  Blows the mindsets of folks like Tee, Brass, Dowd, Krugman, etc., right out of the water with 1 big common sense salvo.     8)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2006, 12:19:37 PM »
<<Great article Bt.  Blows the mindsets of folks like Tee, Brass, Dowd, Krugman, etc., right out of the water with 1 big common sense salvo.  >>

It was actually a very silly article.  I read it through and it's just recirculated mishmash of Bernard Lewis, stay-the-course propaganda to perpetuate the fruits of an illegal invasion and occupation. 

Unfortunately, I only had time enough to demolish the first few paras, relatively easy work because they contained no substance at all and consisted of nothing more than purely ad hominem attacks on different types of critics of the Bush administration.   

It has just enough skill to masquerade as "deep thinking," which is why shallow minds like yours embrace it with such enthusiasm.  "1 big common sense salvo"  LMFAO. Common sense tells you that these people are not going to live together in peace unless one of them establishes a dictatorship over all of them, which brings you right back to Saddam Hussein or the next Saddam Hussein.  Meaning that 600,000 Iraqis died for nothing, thanks to Bush. 

sirs

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2006, 12:53:03 PM »
It was actually a very silly article.  ..... Common sense tells you that these people are not going to live together in peace unless one of them establishes a dictatorship over all of them, which brings you right back to Saddam Hussein or the next Saddam Hussein.  Meaning that 600,000 Iraqis died for nothing, thanks to Bush. 

This coming from the fella that believes Bush would have sat on 911 if he knew, that our Militatry is 1 big muderous thug militia, minus any widespread facts to prove it, that the vast majority Iraqi deaths are currently at the hands of Muslim terrorists & insurgents, and that polling of Iraqis demonstrated how taking out Saddam was crucial, regardless the cost.  I think we all know where the "silliness" is coming from, I'm afraid
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2006, 01:26:36 PM »
Crap.

The fact is that the US has done all it could. It removed Saddam and his followers and it has established that there were no WM D's.

The US cannot install, implant or otherwise impose any sort of political system on Iraq. In Japan and Germany in 1945, there had been a parliamentary system previously. Iraq was a corrupt monarchy and a poorly run colony prior to the conquest by the Juniorbushies and the imposition of some really silly Neocon ideas by some totally incompetent neocom flakes.

Powell said, "You break it, you own it". But it's a lot worse than that. The US did break Iraq, but has neither the knowhow not the people to fix it. It is as though Iraq was a broken refrigerator with the directions printed in Arabic, and the US was a crew of loggers, armed with axes, hammers and chocker cables and instructions in English.

Only Iraqis can rectify the ghastly mess that exists now. All an extended US permanence can do is to get themselves killed and win the jeers of the rest of the planet. 

The People's Republic has a far better chance of reforming Tibet to the approval of all than the US could reform Iraq to the approval of even a few.

Juniorbush has turned the fishtank into bouillabaisse and no one will be able to resurrect the mess, certainly not him.

That asshole James Baker came down here to FL to FL and stole the election for Juniorbush and put his utterly incompetent useless ass on the throne. I find it entirely ironic that now the same Family Fakir Baker has now been appointed to pull Juniorbush's gonads out of the vise.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2006, 01:46:12 PM by Xavier_Onassis »
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2006, 01:31:05 PM »
Crap.
The fact is that the US has done all it could. It removed Saddam and his followers and it has established that there were no WMD's.


You may be right Hoof.  There may me no more we can do.  "May" being the operable word, since it also implies maybe not.  And given your track record on what you're right about vs what you're not, leads me to believe you're wrong on this one as well.  It remains a moral obligation, especially in light of the successes that have occured (and of coure go largely un-reported), and for those who have lost their lives in this battle, that we make the best effort we can at helping to bring about the freedom, that Humans are inheirently entitled to, now that we are there.  NOT that that was the reason we went into Iraq (In case prince glances over this), simply that we do need to help fix it, now that we're there.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2006, 01:58:30 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

domer

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2006, 03:45:04 PM »
With the advantage of hindsight, any politician who says our invasion of Iraq was "worth it" would not live in fear of losing votes but rather of when he would be released from the mental institution. The matter is that clear. Yet, to his eternal discredit, Bush will not admit a mistake but does instead bumble from shifting rationale to shifting rationale to shield himself and his advisers from anything close to a day of reckoning.

To be sure, the task of "rehabilitating Iraq" was implied in the very decision to invade: one cannot overturn a totalitarian government without being morally and politically obligated to get the country up and running again, preferably in the "right" direction. Yet, this aspect of the MANDATES OF INVASION were either virtually ignored and/or horribly mangled in execution, such that, beyond our and the "free Iraqis'" reach, there is now not only an insurgency, which lamentably was never foreseen, but also a raging civil war of a virulence and degree the observer can judge for him- or herself.

This brings us to our present moment. The WMD that didn't exist have been neutralized. The menace Saddm represented has been replaced with the menace that Iran has become, for, historically, Iraq countered Iran's influence in the region when a strong, functioning (if brutal and rebellious) regime held sway in Baghdad. Machiavelli, the prophet of realpolitik, perhaps, would swoon at the geo-political ineptitude of Bush's gambit.

That brings us to the question of democracy in Iraq, which supplanted our original goals. It goes beyond rebuilding a war-torn nation and the impulse to leave a better situation, a better government, in our wake (which could be something considerably less than democracy; see Jordan, for example). It graduates the military exercise into a grand, geo-political scheme -- the spread of democracy -- which, unfortunately, decoupled from the necessary task of reconstruction after a war, that is, standing alone as an aim in itself, is unprecedented in the annals of world "diplomacy." How do we Find the "will of the people," ignoring "conventional" means of expression such as civil war, in the "fabricated" (under US direction) elan of a plebiscite, which rightly or wrongly does not represent the balance of power in the country, as evidenced by the blood in the streets and the reigning chaos?

That is our present situation, and it is horrendous. As Obama says, there are no good options. NOW WE CAN BEGIN OUR ANALYSIS.

BT

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2006, 05:12:16 PM »
Quote
With the advantage of hindsight, any politician who says our invasion of Iraq was "worth it" would not live in fear of losing votes but rather of when he would be released from the mental institution. The matter is that clear.

Another opinion masked as fact. And i disagree.

Is a peaceful Middle Eastern Region worth the price we are currently paying in blood and treasure?

I would think so. Probably worth it at twice the price.

The alternative of allowing Israeli's to be driven into the sea and the country driven from existence seems to be the price we are unwilling to pay. and i opine rightfully so.




domer

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2006, 05:57:42 PM »
Rather than issuing a blind call, accurate or not, about the need to save Israel, why not address the morality and justice of the situation from a nonpartisan perspective? Can Israel make a compelling case that its vision for the future in that region should proceed undisturbed, or, obversely, can the Palestinians demonstrate a true moral and "legal" injury that is now redressable in face of years of open "adverse possession" of the coveted land by the Israelis?

Michael Tee

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2006, 06:30:31 PM »
<<This coming from the fella that believes Bush would have sat on 911 if he knew . . . >>

Yes, particularly since the PNAC lay out the need to invade a major Middle Eastern nation, and speculated that "only a new Pearl Harbor" could provide the justification, it's not unthinkable that Bush would have let the WTC attacks proceed had he been given advance knowledge.  You have produced no evidence at all to the contrary and since we're both speculating on a hypothetical, but I with the advantage that Bush's past actions, mainly lying whenever it suits him, prove that he is unscrupulous, amoral and unethical, I would say that my speculation is just as valid as yours.  Although since Bush is also a world-class coward, he'd have to be pretty damn sure that his advance knowledge would never surface before he dared to ignore a predicted attack.  It's a reasonable hypothetical, although it's also open to argue that his cowardice would have prevented him from taking the Big Risk for PNAC.
 

<<that our Militatry is 1 big muderous thug militia . . .>>

rape, torture, murder, cover-up . . . what are they, the acts of a small band of Christian saints?  Oh no!  I forgot!  They're the acts of "a few bad apples" who happen to surface just about anywhere the U.S. conducts its military operations and who somehow enjoy miraculous immunity from any kind of prosecution except for a few unfortunate scapegoats at the very lowest levels of the chain of command.

<< . . . minus any widespread facts to prove it>>

"widespread" in this context means that they aren't an army of thugs unless every soldier in every unit in every theatre of operations has personally committed at least one act of torture, murder or rape

<< . . . that the vast majority Iraqi deaths are currently at the hands of Muslim terrorists & insurgents . . .>>

who by some sheer coincidence having nothing at all to do with the American invasion somehow mysteriously appeared in its wake;

<< and that polling of Iraqis demonstrated how taking out Saddam was crucial, regardless the cost.  >>

The fact that you can't point to one such poll is of course immaterial.  It's sufficient that you can imagine such a poll, and (in conservative minds at least) your point is irrefutably proven.

<<I think we all know where the "silliness" is coming from, I'm afraid>>

Believe me, sirs, it was never in doubt.  But thank you for opening your mouth again and again so that none of us can forget.

BT

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2006, 12:46:22 AM »
Quote
Rather than issuing a blind call, accurate or not, about the need to save Israel, why not address the morality and justice of the situation from a nonpartisan perspective?

Define nonpartisan.

If you are alluding to a dem-rep split i would submit that support for Israel is bi-partisan.

Ensuring the existense of Israel is the line in the sand.