Author Topic: The New Old German Problem  (Read 3645 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Old German Problem
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2010, 05:31:37 PM »
A meaningless stat without comparative data from other EU governments.  If it IS out of line, it probably means corruption - - non-productive drones on the payroll, whose "work" is accepted on a total-hours basis into the GDP, just like the work of a seafarer, farm or hotel worker.

I eagerly await your report.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Old German Problem
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2010, 10:03:18 PM »
<<I eagerly await your report.>>

I have no interest in building your argument.  You are the one who introduced the stat totally out of context.  I neither agree nor disagree with the conclusion that you drew from it, I merely point out how the stat alone, out of context, means nothing.

If you think so little of the statistic that you yourself introduced into the argument that you aren't prepared to place it in context, where it might have some significance, don't expect ME to do your work for you.  All I can say is, "Nice half-assed argument, where's the rest of it?"

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Old German Problem
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2010, 10:43:53 PM »
Mexico also has a large purportion of its workforce in government .

This is a problem the USA is picking up and I am participateing in .


WE civil servants do pay taxes , but would a snake eating its own tail really last a long time?

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Old German Problem
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2010, 12:00:51 AM »
I have no interest in building your argument.  You are the one who introduced the stat totally out of context.  I neither agree nor disagree with the conclusion that you drew from it, I merely point out how the stat alone, out of context, means nothing.

I beg to differ; you are the one who introduced "percent of GDP" as a valid comparison for industries in a country. I just pointed out that the major industry in Greece appears to be civil service, using your source and criteria.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Old German Problem
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2010, 10:27:54 AM »
<<I beg to differ; you are the one who introduced "percent of GDP" as a valid comparison for industries in a country.>>

I don't know what specific post of mine you are referring to, but I do think "percent of GDP" is a valid comparison for "industries in a country," i.e., if the forest products industry is 13 percent of a nation's GDP and medical instrumentation is 0.3% of GDP, then one could expect forest products to be more significant than medical instrumentation in that nation's economy in general - - i.e., that a world-wide slump in demand for forest products would be a lot more devastating in more areas of the national economy than a world-wide slump in demand for medical instrumentation, etc.

But I don't think you were referring to the role of government as opposed to other industries within the Greek economy, I thought your intent was to demonstrate where Greece was out of step with other national economies in the EU.  If that was your point, then your argument is still deficient without the comparative figures from the other national economies.  In effect, you've said that I use factor X in determining issue Y, and then you attempted to use factor X to determine issue Z, based on my initial approval of factor X for a totally different issue.


Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Old German Problem
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2010, 11:13:19 AM »
But I don't think you were referring to the role of government as opposed to other industries within the Greek economy, I thought your intent was to demonstrate where Greece was out of step with other national economies in the EU.

Obviously not. If that's information you're interested in, feel free to look up the figures. I was pointing out that the largest "industry" in Greece is civil service.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Old German Problem
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2010, 08:14:49 PM »
But I don't think you were referring to the role of government as opposed to other industries within the Greek economy, I thought your intent was to demonstrate where Greece was out of step with other national economies in the EU.

Obviously not. If that's information you're interested in, feel free to look up the figures. I was pointing out that the largest "industry" in Greece is civil service.

I think that it has to also be pointed, out that the Government doesn't produce any GNP without removeing it first from somewhere elese.

This isn't obvious to everyone.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Old German Problem
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2010, 10:16:02 PM »
<<Obviously not. If that's information you're interested in, feel free to look up the figures. I was pointing out that the largest "industry" in Greece is civil service.>>

So that is necessarily bad?  Why?

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Old German Problem
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2010, 10:23:11 PM »
<<Obviously not. If that's information you're interested in, feel free to look up the figures. I was pointing out that the largest "industry" in Greece is civil service.>>

So that is necessarily bad?  Why?
ouroboros



How long can a reptile live by consumeing its own tail?

I consider the arrangement to be severely limited in duration.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Old German Problem
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2010, 11:14:15 PM »
Sorry but I don't see that analogy between eating one's own tail and a government that produces 40% of the GDP.

My original question was, what's necessarily bad about a government producing 40% of the national GDP, and I'd still like to see a straight answer to the question, with or without an analogy about eating tail.  Every government produces some part of the GDP, so what is so bad about 40%?

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Old German Problem
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2010, 11:16:09 PM »
Sorry but I don't see that analogy between eating one's own tail and a government that produces 40% of the GDP.

My original question was, what's necessarily bad about a government producing 40% of the national GDP, and I'd still like to see a straight answer to the question, with or without an analogy about eating tail.  Every government produces some part of the GDP, so what is so bad about 40%?

What do you mean by "produce" then?

Especially in this instance.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Old German Problem
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2010, 11:42:08 PM »
<<What do you mean by "produce" then?>>

Well, you certainly raise some interesting questions about GDP.  Anyone who produces 40% of the gross domestic product produces 40 % of the total value of all goods and services produced in the country in a year.  So "produce" means the production of goods or services.

Someone once pointed out that if an oil tanker spills a billion gals. of oil and it costs $50 billion to clean up the mess, then that $50 billion is counted in the GDP just the same as if it were $50 billion worth of ball bearings or $50 billion worth of brain surgery or lawnmowers or anything else more productive than cleaning up after a mess.  So that GDP can be a pretty rough measure of a country's productivity or standard of living.

If a government produces 40% of GDP, that production would take the form of market value of government services (mostly) plus whatever the government manufactures - - so it's output as regulatory services, metrics (like the national census,) social services (ensuring the flow of funds to the underprivileged, the unemployed, the disabled,) education, research, policing etc.  In a socialist state, more of the GDP is government output (and taxpayer funded) and in a less socialist state, more of the GDP is privately produced and (to the huge, often obscene, profit of the producers) consumer-funded. 

The consumers, unlike the taxpayers, have very little oversight over their providers, and so can expect to get regularly fucked in the ass by them, as in fact has occurred with clockwork regularity in your own country and continues as we speak.  To add insult to injury, when, as happens more often than not in capitalist countries, the capitalist owners also manage to "own" not only the means of production but the "government" as well, they not only get to fuck the consumers up the ass on a regular basis, but to add insult to injury, can actually expect the taxpayers to bail them out whenever they run their "businesses" into the ground.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Old German Problem
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2010, 11:45:22 PM »
So "Produced " need not mean that any new value was created ?


What if the entire economy was government?

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Old German Problem
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2010, 12:08:08 AM »
<<So "Produced " need not mean that any new value was created ?>>

No, and that's one of the problems with a too-slavish adherence to GDP as a measure of economic progress.  Oil spill clean-ups add nothing.  (Although philosophically, they could be considered a necessary part of every country's oil industry.)  Billions of dollars are spent advertising or marketing Corn Flakes as against Grape Nuts or Wheaties - - WTF do those dollars really add to the economy?  If $100 billion worth of cigarettes are produced, that goes into the GDP, as does the whole medical effort to fight the cancers created by them.


<<What if the entire economy was government?>>

That was the U.S.S.R., to all practical purposes.  That was the original Israeli kibbutz too.  You lack the stimulus of competition.  That is a problem that the Communists have never solved satisfactorily, except to compromise on the principles of Communism and award special status to "Hero of the Soviet Union," "Hero of Labour," etc.  "Hero Factory."  "Hero Collective Farm."  But theoretically, the government could produce a lot of services and products better and cheaper than private industry - - there is no profit motive pushing up prices, cutting corners on quality, etc.  In the 1930s, the GDP of the U.S.S.R. was rising faster than that of any other industrialized country.  I think they were better Communists in those days.  Purer, closer to the Communist ideals.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The New Old German Problem
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2010, 05:21:18 AM »
<<So "Produced " need not mean that any new value was created ?>>

No, and that's one of the problems with a too-slavish adherence to GDP as a measure of economic progress.  Oil spill clean-ups add nothing.  (Although philosophically, they could be considered a necessary part of every country's oil industry.)  Billions of dollars are spent advertising or marketing Corn Flakes as against Grape Nuts or Wheaties - - WTF do those dollars really add to the economy?  If $100 billion worth of cigarettes are produced, that goes into the GDP, as does the whole medical effort to fight the cancers created by them.


<<What if the entire economy was government?>>

That was the U.S.S.R., to all practical purposes.  That was the original Israeli kibbutz too.  You lack the stimulus of competition.  That is a problem that the Communists have never solved satisfactorily, except to compromise on the principles of Communism and award special status to "Hero of the Soviet Union," "Hero of Labour," etc.  "Hero Factory."  "Hero Collective Farm."  But theoretically, the government could produce a lot of services and products better and cheaper than private industry - - there is no profit motive pushing up prices, cutting corners on quality, etc.  In the 1930s, the GDP of the U.S.S.R. was rising faster than that of any other industrialized country.  I think they were better Communists in those days.  Purer, closer to the Communist ideals.
Worse at fudging the books.

There is a real problem with Incest , and a problem with closed systems.

You notice it as the children of Communists being less comitted than their fathers , I notice it as reality creeping into the picture.

There was never any hope that Communism would escape its fate , except that it change its basic nature and stop being a monopoly of everything. The US had a period of monopolistic trusts which ended in an era of public disgust and anti trust legislation, we are near a simular phenominon where we are learning again that we should avoid haveing business too big to fail.