Author Topic: Hugo Chavez's implosion continues in Venezuela!  (Read 4501 times)

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Plane

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Re: Hugo Chavez's implosion continues in Venezuela!
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2010, 04:08:50 PM »
<<Under communism there was full employment working all the time in the people's enterprises at the cost of their own labour. >>

Yeah.  Working for the people, not for the capitalists.


You mean the state which falsely calls itself the people.

The people are not allowd any choice so how can the state be called the people?

sirs

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Re: Hugo Chavez's implosion continues in Venezuela!
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2010, 04:22:37 PM »
Bingo.  Tee himself already conceded a tier level of elites who would largely dictate what "the people" need, want, will do, say, ignore, etc., while the actual people are largely working for the state and those elites who determine who "the people" and the state are

At least in a Capitalist economy, people are free to opt out of one enterprise, and consider another.  The evils of communism largely removes even that choice
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Hugo Chavez's implosion continues in Venezuela!
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2010, 07:26:01 AM »
<<You mean the state which falsely calls itself the people.>>

"Falsely," my ass.

<<The people are not allowd any choice so how can the state be called the people?>>

You gotta be kidding.  They made their choice in the Revolution.   If the Revolutionary Government fails to serve the people, another Revolution can kick them out.

Amianthus

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Re: Hugo Chavez's implosion continues in Venezuela!
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2010, 08:25:08 AM »
If the Revolutionary Government fails to serve the people, another Revolution can kick them out.

Unless the first Revolutionary Government acts quickly enough to have them deemed "enemies of the people" and lined up against the wall before the next Revolution kicks them out.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Hugo Chavez's implosion continues in Venezuela!
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2010, 09:21:56 AM »
They made their choice in the Revolution. 

No they didn't.....most Cubans probably were not even alive when Castro took over.
Regular free and open elections are vastly superior for people making their choices instead of a revolution.
Regular free and open elections are good things.....revolutions not so much.
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Plane

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Re: Hugo Chavez's implosion continues in Venezuela!
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2010, 10:51:37 AM »
<<You mean the state which falsely calls itself the people.>>

"Falsely," my ass.

<<The people are not allowd any choice so how can the state be called the people?>>

You gotta be kidding.  They made their choice in the Revolution.   If the Revolutionary Government fails to serve the people, another Revolution can kick them out.


That is rediculous.

Even so there is an American History answer for it.
 John Hancock wanted the term of the Presidency to be a lifetime appointment , and it was Benjaman Franklin who explained to him the problem with that.

That if the people could not elect new leadership they could assasinate the old leadership.

Understanding the sense of this John Hnacock (who probly hoped to be a president) withdrew his objection to a relitively short presidential term.

Any leader unwilling to admit that his entire nation can produce more tha one competant leadership is insulting the people and is makeing his own assissination needfull.


 Your admission that Communism is so inflexable that it requires new revolution anytime the old revolution gets tired justifies my assertion that the Communist system is primitive compared to the more developed systems of the World.

Also that it is rediculous to claim that a choice made of the people two ro three generations ago can pretend to be the peoples choice forever.

Michael Tee

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Re: Hugo Chavez's implosion continues in Venezuela!
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2010, 01:18:55 PM »
<<Unless the first Revolutionary Government acts quickly enough to have them deemed "enemies of the people" and lined up against the wall before the next Revolution kicks them out.>>

Yeah, the Czarist government tried it but it didn't work.  The South Vietnamese puppet government tried it, but it didn't work.  When all the people are united against the government, doesn't matter how many individuals the government can hunt down and kill, El Pueblo!  Unido!  Jamas sera vencido!

Plane

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Re: Hugo Chavez's implosion continues in Venezuela!
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2010, 01:27:08 PM »
<<Unless the first Revolutionary Government acts quickly enough to have them deemed "enemies of the people" and lined up against the wall before the next Revolution kicks them out.>>

Yeah, the Czarist government tried it but it didn't work.  The South Vietnamese puppet government tried it, but it didn't work.  When all the people are united against the government, doesn't matter how many individuals the government can hunt down and kill, El Pueblo!  Unido!  Jamas sera vencido!


The number realy really doesn't matter, the casualtys arn't counted so much as covered . If you had to kill most of the people to preserve the revolution so be it! The revolution is of much greater import than a person , or any number of persons , or the people.

Michael Tee

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Re: Hugo Chavez's implosion continues in Venezuela!
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2010, 01:29:19 PM »
<<Any leader unwilling to admit that his entire nation can produce more tha one competant leadership is insulting the people and is makeing his own assissination needfull.>>

I don't think Fidel ever claimed that he was the only person in the whole nation competent to lead.  He was only one of five or six comandantes originally, albeit the top one, and I think he would have admitted that the others could also lead.  He just happened to be the best and the others all wanted his leadership.  He certainly proved himself worthy of their confidence over the years.


<<Your admission that Communism is so inflexable that it requires new revolution anytime the old revolution gets tired justifies my assertion that the Communist system is primitive compared to the more developed systems of the World.>>

It's an admission that Communism has a huge problem with the issue of succession, one that has never been solved.  Never did I claim that Communism was a perfect solution to anything, that it had no problems of its own.

<<Also that it is rediculous to claim that a choice made of the people two ro three generations ago can pretend to be the peoples choice forever.>>

In Cuba's case it happens to be the truth.  The people do not want to return to the banana republic status imposed on them by American hegemony.  They don't want to be another Guatemala or Honduras.  If they ever want out of Communism they can revolt as their gusano cousins in Miami keep urging them to do.  Too bad the gusanos won't set foot on the island to lead the revolt - - they know better than anyone else does what kind of reception the Cuban people would prepare for them.  They still remember the Bay of Pigs.

Michael Tee

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Re: Hugo Chavez's implosion continues in Venezuela!
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2010, 01:34:34 PM »
<<Regular free and open elections are vastly superior for people making their choices instead of a revolution.>>

How would you know?  Every one of America's elections for decades has been nothing but a phony charade between Tweedle-Dum and Tweedle-Dee candidates who stand for the same basic things and quarrel over nothing.  I can't remember when America held an election where both candidates weren't selected in advance by the military-industrial complex and their bankers.  Ever since the defeat of Henry Wallace in the 1948 elections, American voters were never given a real choice about anything, except for issues like abortion, church-state separation,  or other social issues, which the military-industrial complex doesn't really give a shit about.

sirs

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Re: Hugo Chavez's implosion continues in Venezuela!
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2010, 01:38:56 PM »
Yea, so much better for someone to be place himself in charge by military fiat (read, MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX), vs people having the freedom to choose their leader.  Good lord, what were we thinking?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Hugo Chavez's implosion continues in Venezuela!
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2010, 01:39:26 PM »
<<Any leader unwilling to admit that his entire nation can produce more tha one competant leadership is insulting the people and is makeing his own assissination needfull.>>

I don't think Fidel ever claimed that he was the only person in the whole nation competent to lead.  He was only one of five or six comandantes originally, albeit the top one, and I think he would have admitted that the others could also lead.  He just happened to be the best and the others all wanted his leadership.  He certainly proved himself worthy of their confidence over the years.


<<Your admission that Communism is so inflexable that it requires new revolution anytime the old revolution gets tired justifies my assertion that the Communist system is primitive compared to the more developed systems of the World.>>

It's an admission that Communism has a huge problem with the issue of succession, one that has never been solved.  Never did I claim that Communism was a perfect solution to anything, that it had no problems of its own.

<<Also that it is rediculous to claim that a choice made of the people two ro three generations ago can pretend to be the peoples choice forever.>>

In Cuba's case it happens to be the truth.  The people do not want to return to the banana republic status imposed on them by American hegemony.  They don't want to be another Guatemala or Honduras.  If they ever want out of Communism they can revolt as their gusano cousins in Miami keep urging them to do.  Too bad the gusanos won't set foot on the island to lead the revolt - - they know better than anyone else does what kind of reception the Cuban people would prepare for them.  They still remember the Bay of Pigs.

Cuba has exiled a huge number of gusanos. If I were Cuban I would start thinking that  gusano ment intelligent or ment couragious .

If the US were to exile so many it would be like emptying California into Canada , how is this a good idea?

The Cuban system deserves the description "primitive" because it has no advantages over a benevolent monarchy .

There are lots of countrys with more advanced systems , systems that do not make their minoritys endure abuse , insult and exile. These are problems that have been historicly solved, there is no need of invention.

Plane

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Re: Hugo Chavez's implosion continues in Venezuela!
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2010, 01:45:15 PM »
<<Regular free and open elections are vastly superior for people making their choices instead of a revolution.>>

How would you know?  Every one of America's elections for decades has been nothing but a phony charade between Tweedle-Dum and Tweedle-Dee candidates who stand for the same basic things and quarrel over nothing.  I can't remember when America held an election where both candidates weren't selected in advance by the military-industrial complex and their bankers.  Ever since the defeat of Henry Wallace in the 1948 elections, American voters were never given a real choice about anything, except for issues like abortion, church-state separation,  or other social issues, which the military-industrial complex doesn't really give a shit about.

You haven't been paying much attention at all have you ?

Communists and Socialists are indeed allowed to offer themselves as canadates but those choices bear precious little appeal to the common man.

Scientific polling has allowed the major partys to understand very well what the people care about and don't. Both partys are busy trying to lead while they also follow these polls. The government is constantly copeing itself to the will of the people . If this is bad it is the fault of the people who seem to demand nothing less.

Michael Tee

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Re: Hugo Chavez's implosion continues in Venezuela!
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2010, 01:58:07 PM »
<<Cuba has exiled a huge number of gusanos. >>

Socialism is not for everyone.  For those who think that they can do better as individuals in a war of each against all, the U.S.A. is a perfect fit.  Somebody should check up on these gusanos every ten years to see how they did.  Some did become wealthy and for them, with values like theirs (selfishness and greed,) moving to the U.S.A. was definitely the right move.  Since everyone can't get rich (who would wash their cars if they did?) I think most of the gusanos made the wrong choice, although some may undoubtedly feel good about having made the choice and taken their best shot at it.

<<If I were Cuban I would start thinking that  gusano ment intelligent or ment couragious .>>

What if it did?  There are plenty of intelligent and courageous men and women who supported the Revolution, and NONE of them were motivated by greed or selfishness.  

<<If the US were to exile so many it would be like emptying California into Canada , how is this a good idea?>>

What's the difference?  If you are building a society based on the ethic of cooperation, collective effort and sharing, and you lose a bunch of greed-driven, selfish narcissists, who gives a shit?  The Revolution is better off without them, and it's cheaper than shooting them.

<<The Cuban system deserves the description "primitive" because it has no advantages over a benevolent monarchy .>>

Funny, that's a question I've often asked myself - - what's the difference between Fidel and a more-or-less benevolent monarch?  Elections would probably be better IF.  If you had an intelligent, well-informed electorate and no special interests were allowed to interfere in the elections with dirty tricks, lies, false promises, etc.  Given the example of the U.S. federal elections, I'd say that they are no match for a benevolent monarchy, despite the succession problems of the monarch.

<<There are lots of countrys with more advanced systems , systems that do not make their minoritys endure abuse , insult and exile. These are problems that have been historicly solved, there is no need of invention.>>

Nothing's been "historically solved" - - the U.S.-style phony elections between Tweedle-Dum and Tweedle-Dee candidates only serve to mask the problem of rule by special interests.  Elections in general were better in 4th-Century Athens than in the U.S.A. and might still work in small communities where everyone knows everyone else.  They sure as hell have huge problems in a country of 300 million  where dozens of millions of dollars are required even for a Senatorial campaign, let alone a Presidential.  Don't pretend that you have solved your problems while the Communists haven't solved theirs.  That's bullshit.

Plane

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Re: Hugo Chavez's implosion continues in Venezuela!
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2010, 02:08:18 PM »
I do not have to claim that we have solved our problems completely .

I am only claiming that we have solved them better.


For example OUR gusanos can join the opposition party and need neither to be shot nor exiled .

If the major leage party out of power is not diffrent enough, there are dozens of custom made minor partys . None of these need execution of exile either.

In Cuba the class in power must preserve its advantage by constant destruction of veriety and diversity , this is a certain sign of primitiveness.