Author Topic: Israelis cleverly wreck their rapport with the Turks.  (Read 12891 times)

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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Israelis cleverly wreck their rapport with the Turks.
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2010, 02:27:38 PM »
Nice to know that Pirates, of all stripes, have someone on their side
=====================================================
I am pretty sure that the Israeli commandos in question do not identify with Jean LaFitte, Blackbeard, or the current Somali pirates. They no doubt consider themselves to the Chosen Pirates of Elohim/Adonai/Jehovah or perhaps they just like to stomp the Hell out of others. Perhaps they are not even the sort of guys that enjoy saying Arrrrrrrr! or having their timbers shivered.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Israelis cleverly wreck their rapport with the Turks.
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2010, 02:31:40 PM »
I'm also pretty sure there were armed Islamic Jihadists on those floatillas, that had no presence other than facilitate conflict with Israeli commandos
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Israelis cleverly wreck their rapport with the Turks.
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2010, 02:58:26 PM »
I'm also pretty sure there were armed Islamic Jihadists on those floatillas, that had no presence other than facilitate conflict with Israeli commandos

In which case sending the commandos was a singularly BAD idea. Now see what has happened: the Egyptians have opened the border at Raffah, and Israeli looks like sh*t and fell in it.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Israelis cleverly wreck their rapport with the Turks.
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2010, 03:20:36 PM »
Judgement call on the part of the Israelis.  Point being, this was more than just some simple "humanitarian" mission, since even you have conceded the presence of these armed Jihadists.  My guess is that minus the armed Arab militants on board, there'd have been no skirmish, no bloodshed, no death.

As much as the Palestinians might want such, dare I say, "obviously" not what the Jihadists want.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: Israelis cleverly wreck their rapport with the Turks.
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2010, 06:01:17 PM »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Israelis cleverly wreck their rapport with the Turks.
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2010, 06:30:13 PM »
The blockade has no legal standing. No one has any right to board an unwilling ship on the high seas.
Yeah sure.....

Israel's Actions: Entirely Lawful

By Dr. Alan M. Dershowitz

Jun 2nd, 2010

While the international community has, once again, ganged up on Israel, one thing is for certain: the legality of Israel's actions in stopping the Gaza flotilla is not open to question. What Israel did was entirely consistent with both international and domestic law. In order to understand why Israel acted within its rights, the complex events at sea must be deconstructed:

First, there is the Israeli blockade of Gaza, which included a naval blockade. Recall that when Israel ended its occupation of Gaza, it did not impose a blockade. Indeed it left behind agricultural facilities in the hope that the newly liberated Gaza Strip would become a peaceful and productive area. Instead Hamas seized control over Gaza and engaged in acts of warfare against Israel. These acts of warfare featured anti-personnel rockets, nearly 10,000 of them, directed at Israeli civilians. This was not only an act of warfare, it was a war crime. Israel responded to the rockets by declaring a blockade, the purpose of which was to assure that no rockets, or other material that could be used for making war against Israeli civilians, was permitted into Gaza. Israel allowed humanitarian aid through its checkpoints. Egypt as well participated in the blockade. There was never a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, merely a shortage of certain goods that would end if the rocket attacks ended.

The legality of blockades as a response to acts of war is not subject to serious doubt. When the United States blockaded Cuba during the missile crisis, the State Department issued an opinion declaring the blockade to be lawful. This, despite the fact that Cuba had not engaged in any act of belligerency against the United States. Other nations have similarly enforced naval blockades to assure their own security.

The second issue is whether it is lawful to enforce a legal blockade in international waters. Again, law and practice are clear. If there is no doubt that the offending ships have made a firm determination to break the blockade, then the blockade may be enforced before the offending ships cross the line into domestic waters. Again the United States and other western countries have frequently boarded ships at high sea in order to assure their security.

Third, were those on board the flotilla innocent non-combatants or did they lose that status once they agreed to engage in the military act of breaking the blockade? Let there be no mistake about the purpose of this flotilla. It was decidedly not to provide humanitarian aid to the residents of Gaza, but rather the break the entirely lawful Israeli military blockade. The proof lies in the fact that both Israel and Egypt offered to have all the food, medicine and other humanitarian goods sent to Gaza, if the boats agreed to land in an Israeli or Egyptian port. That humanitarian offer was soundly rejected by the leaders of the flotilla who publicly announced:

"This mission is not about delivering humanitarian supplies, it?' about breaking Israel?s siege on 1.5 million Palestinians". (AFP May 27, 2010.)

The act of breaking a military siege is itself a military act, and those knowingly participating in such military action put in doubt their status as non-combatants.

It is a close question whether "civilians" who agree too participate in the breaking of a military blockade have become combatants. They are certainly something different than pure, innocent civilians, and perhaps they are also somewhat different from pure armed combatants. They fit uncomfortably onto the continuum of civilianality that has come to characterize asymmetrical warfare.

Finally, we come to the issue of the right of self defense engaged in by Israeli soldiers who were attacked by activists on the boat. There can be little doubt that the moment any person on the boat picked up a weapon and began to attack Israeli soldiers boarding the vessel, they lost their status as innocent civilians. Even if that were not the case, under ordinary civilian rules of self defense, every Israeli soldier had the right to protect himself and his colleagues from attack by knife and pipe wielding assailants. Less there be any doubt that Israeli soldiers were under attack, simply view the accompanying video and watch, as so-called peaceful "activists" repeatedly pummel Israeli soldiers with metal rods. Every individual has the right to repel such attacks by the use of lethal force, especially when the soldiers were so outnumbered on the deck of the ship. Recall that Israel's rules of engagement required its soldiers to fire only paintballs unless their lives were in danger. Would any country in the world deny its soldiers the right of self defense under comparable circumstances?

Notwithstanding the legality of Israel's actions, the international community has, as usual, denounced the Jewish state. In doing so, Israel's critics have failed to pinpoint precisely what Israel did that allegedly violates international law. Some have wrongly focused on the blockade itself. Others have erroneously pointed to the location of the boarding in international waters. Most have simply pointed to the deaths of so-called peace activists, though these deaths appear to be the result of lawful acts of self-defense. None of these factors alone warrant condemnation, but the end result surely deserves scrutiny by Israeli policy makers. There can be little doubt that the mission was a failure, as judged by its results. It is important, however, to distinguish between faulty policies on the one hand, and alleged violations of international law on the other hand. Only the latter would warrant international intervention, and the case has simply not been made that Israel violated international law.

http://frontpagemag.com/2010/06/02/israels-actions-entirely-lawful-2/
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 06:32:29 PM by ChristiansUnited4LessGvt »
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Israelis cleverly wreck their rapport with the Turks.
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2010, 07:05:12 PM »
Screw Dershowitz. He is a shill, a walking Debkafile.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BSB

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Re: Israelis cleverly wreck their rapport with the Turks.
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2010, 07:22:03 PM »
I don't know what the big surprise is here. Rightly or wrongly, everybody should know by now that if you rocket Israel they'll send in the tanks. If you ignore their warnings about breaking a blockade they'll send in their Seals. If you f___ with them they'll f___ you back. It's real simple. They're not shy about any of this.



Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Israelis cleverly wreck their rapport with the Turks.
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2010, 07:55:03 PM »
And that is precisely why they are doomed to another 60 years of conflict.

I am just tired of these assholes doing it on MY nickle.

Most Americans have as much to do with Palisrael as they do with Transdinestria. Let 'em fling rocks at each other.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Israelis cleverly wreck their rapport with the Turks.
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2010, 08:01:04 PM »
Xo does have a small leg to stand on here.  Small, but appropriate.  Israel has enough force and hardware, that they can largely take care of themselves.  Let our alliance with them be largely trade oriented, vs any subsidizing of them.  If they wish to purchase military arms and training from us, no problem, and vice versa. 

If someone does try to go to war with them, THEN we would do what we'd do for any other allie, we support them, as long as the provocation to war wasn't completely ethically & morally out of line.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: Israelis cleverly wreck their rapport with the Turks.
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2010, 08:05:07 PM »
What's that you say??  sirs conceded a point, albeit a small one??  But....but....he NEVER concedes anything.  Or so we're told       ;)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Israelis cleverly wreck their rapport with the Turks.
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2010, 10:49:19 PM »
I don't see why the US needs to be an ally of Israel, either. Let them defend their own damn selves. They are too cocky and prone to bullying everyone else.

I would not think that they need to me any greater ally than Malta or Slovakia. They aren't Canada, after all. Israel has never joined the US in any of its excessive military adventures. They DID teach the Salvadorean and Argentine generals how to torture people for a spell, though.

I guarantee you, that if the US decided to end one penny of aid, AIPAC, the Israeli Lobby would accuse the US of building another Auschwitz.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Israelis cleverly wreck their rapport with the Turks.
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2010, 11:09:24 PM »
Your unsubstantiated opinion is duely noted.  Especially as it relates to democratically free countries that warrant support and our alliance in time of war, vs those that aren't
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 11:11:34 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Israelis cleverly wreck their rapport with the Turks.
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2010, 11:12:01 PM »
What happened on the flotilla that wasn't planned by the organisers of the flotilla?


Theater?

sirs

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Re: Israelis cleverly wreck their rapport with the Turks.
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2010, 11:13:11 PM »
The Jihadists got what they wanted
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle