Author Topic: Ooops  (Read 8837 times)

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Amianthus

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Re: Ooops
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2006, 10:47:16 AM »
So what?

Well, that was the claim that was made.

Humans are a significant cause of global warming. If humans act to diminish their contributions to global warming, then it will be less intense.

No study has shown that humans are a "significant cause" of global warming, either. The Vostok ice core samples show that CO2 levels have periodically spiked upwards from before human industry - before human agriculture, even.

« Last Edit: November 28, 2006, 10:53:14 AM by Amianthus »
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Ooops
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2006, 11:38:36 AM »
What a purty graph! I know I am impressed!

So, you believe that humans have nothing to do with global warming?
How about the disappearing of the  ozone layer?

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Amianthus

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Re: Ooops
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2006, 12:04:15 PM »
So, you believe that humans have nothing to do with global warming?

When did I say that?

I said that we're not the sole, or even a significant, source of trace greenhouse gases. I never said that we didn't contribute at all. Many volcanos produce, in one large eruption, the amount of greenhouse gases that humans produce over a period of time. There are other natural sources of greenhouse gases as well.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

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Re: Ooops
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2006, 06:34:46 PM »
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleid=0CD49ECD-E7F2-99DF-3CAAC6A116763415


Since 1978 chemists at the University of California, Irvine, have been collecting air in 40 locations from northern Alaska to southern New Zealand. Using gas chromatography, the scientists have measured the levels of methane--CH4--in the lowest layer of our atmosphere. Although not nearly as abundant as carbon dioxide--CO2--methane remains the second most important greenhouse gas, both because each molecule of CH4 in the atmosphere traps 23 times as much heat as carbon dioxide and it helps create more ozone--yet another greenhouse gas--in the atmosphere. During the two decades of measurements, methane underwent double-digit growth as a constituent of our atmosphere, rising from 1,520 parts per billion by volume (ppbv) in 1978 to 1,767 ppbv in 1998. But the most recent measurements have revealed that methane levels are barely rising anymore--and it is unclear why.


"The trends of major man-made sources such as rice fields and cattle have greatly slowed down over the last two decades," notes physicist Aslam Khalil of Portland State University. "As these--rice and cattle--were once big sources, their lack of continued increase would then cause atmospheric methane to stop increasing as well."



" Nor does it predict whether that trend will continue. "There is no reason to believe that methane levels will remain stable in the future," Simpson says. "For example, in the future methane levels could increase as a result of increased natural gas and energy use, climate change feedbacks and/or  ...."


" "Over the long term, CO2 emissions will determine the rate and severity of climate change," says NOAA's Ed Dlugokencky. "Slower growth in CH4 buys us some time to find ways to reduce CO2 emissions." "
« Last Edit: November 28, 2006, 06:37:17 PM by Plane »

Plane

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Re: Ooops
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2006, 06:40:36 PM »
Almost all of the systems that have been looked at are in positive feedback ... and soon those effects will be larger than any of the effects of carbon dioxide emissions from industry and so on around the world," he added.

Scientists say that global warming due to carbon emissions from burning fossil fuels for power and transport could boost average temperatures by up to 6C by the end of the century causing floods, famines and violent storms.

But they also say that tough action now to cut carbon emissions could stop atmospheric concentrations of CO2 hitting 450 parts per million -- equivalent to a temperature rise of 2C from pre-industrial levels -- and save the planet.

Lovelock said temperature rises of up to 8C were already built in and while efforts to curb it were morally commendable, they were wasted.

"It is a bit like if your kidneys fail you can go on dialysis -- and who would refuse dialysis if death is the alternative. We should think of it in that context," he said.

"But remember that all they are doing is buying us time, no more. The problems go on," he added.


http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa003&articleID=74A338894D9BEDBC6DDF6746BEFE1245

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Ooops
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2006, 06:57:28 PM »
It would be convenient if we could offset the CO2 emissions with CH4 emissions.

So, if we fly to Europe on a jet, and this causes a huge amount of Co2 e,miossions, we can make up for it by eating beans for 43 0days and farting more than usual.

I don't think this is true, but it should be.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Ooops
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2006, 07:06:38 PM »
Global Warming Mug
The animated gif you're looking at now says it all--fill this mug with hot liquid and watch the coastal paradises of the U.S. sink beneath the waves like so much half-baked climate-change contrarianism. No more effective demonstration of the seriousness of sea levels rising has been conceived, nor could it be. Now drink your coffee.

$12

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=F800CBE7-E7F2-99DF-34D20E586BBF26E3&pageNumber=3&catID=4



Plane

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Re: Ooops
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2006, 07:08:57 PM »
It would be convenient if we could offset the CO2 emissions with CH4 emissions.

So, if we fly to Europe on a jet, and this causes a huge amount of Co2 e,miossions, we can make up for it by eating beans for 43 0days and farting more than usual.

I don't think this is true, but it should be.



CH4 is even worse than CO2 but the rise of CH4 has stopped increaseing , we don't know why .

This article goes on to state that lots of Methane will be released if the tundra warms up , produceing a cascade effect warming the earth at an accellerated rate.

sirs

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Re: Ooops
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2006, 12:23:54 AM »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Diane

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Re: Ooops
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2006, 11:41:45 AM »
Crane,

sorry this has taken so long.  I notice that there was no comment on the hole in the ground and moral fiber of New Orleans... so I will take that as an agreement.

I also appreciate your words regarding Florida and Jeb Bush.  To this I would like to add... 
You are right he has taken lots of photo opps - but most of them are on site in the thick of it and I do appreciate that.
You are also correct about the evacuation fiasco... most people that die in Florida hurricanes are for health reasons and traffic accidents.
One thing you didn't mention that I believe bears note is the fact that new construction has much more stringent rules as to elevation and wind tolerance.  Anything built after August 2002 is more likely to suffer a Cat 3 with merely a shingle or two loss.  I have also seen elevation requirements go up considerable since June 2006.


Diane

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Re: Ooops
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2006, 11:46:31 AM »

[/quote]

Good lord.  You run down any involvement in government saving Americans in New Orleans and then praise Jeb for handling hurricane emergencies well.  Guess we know where you stand.

Plus you go with "Blame the victim."  Good one.  The stupid ole poor folk, just too damn stupid to start hoofing it northward.  Hell, they had three days warning!  Get on the road.  Drag grandma out of her bed.  Get on the highway and run!
[/quote]

HAHA... are you happy now?  You got to judge me... yippee.

You are too willing to give people a pass, Brass... you would fast end up in trouble if you had a government to run. 

Scientists Prove It: Nobody Likes a Freeloader

By Ker Than
LiveScience Staff Writer
posted: 06 April 2006
02:01 pm ET
 
 

Nobody likes a freeloader. Social parasites live off the work of others, and a society infested with too many of them falls apart.

Given the chance, most people will punish moochers with "freeloader fines," even if it means taking a financial hit themselves, a new study finds.

Researchers at the University of Erfurt in Germany recruited 84 students to play a game in which they were given the choice of joining a group that punished freeloaders or one that didn’t.

The students were given 20 units of fake money, which they could trade in for real cash after the experiment. Players could hoard their money or contribute to a group pot. At the end of the game, the pot was increased by about two thirds and then divided equally among all the players, regardless of their contributions.

After contributions were made, the amount that each player donated was made known to other team members. In the group that allowed punishment, players could fine freeloaders three units, but it meant being docked one unit themselves.

The game was repeated thirty times. After each round, players had the option of remaining in their current group or switching to the other one.

Going into the first round, nearly two thirds of the students chose the punishment-free group. After the 30th round, however, the group that punished freeloaders was by far more popular; only a few stragglers were left in the punishment-free group.

The finding supports the idea that institutions able to police themselves foster cooperation between their members and out-compete institutions that let freeloaders go unpunished, the scientists say.

The study, led by Ozgur Gurerk, is detailed in the April 7th issue of the journal Science.
 
http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/060406_punish_moochers.html

It is people like you that make it okay to do nothing.

Plane

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Re: Ooops
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2006, 02:07:32 PM »
http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/060406_punish_moochers.html



I love this , could this exercise be a required class in colledge?


Would it be civics?

Diane

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Re: Ooops
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2006, 03:15:57 PM »
http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/060406_punish_moochers.html



I love this , could this exercise be a required class in colledge?


Would it be civics?

It should be... more a division (off shoot) of poli sci. 

There was an interesting article on the 'Golden Rule'  that was pretty interesting and would explain the lack of said rule in large cities.   If 'reap what you sow' has meaning, one can only presume that the problems with crime and apathy in large cities is the lack of being held accountable to your peers. 

sirs

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Re: Ooops
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2006, 03:44:54 AM »
Don't Believe the Hype
Al Gore is wrong. There's no "consensus" on global warming.


BY RICHARD S. LINDZEN
Sunday, July 2, 2006
 

According to Al Gore's new film "An Inconvenient Truth," we're in for "a planetary emergency": melting ice sheets, huge increases in sea levels, more and stronger hurricanes, and invasions of tropical disease, among other cataclysms--unless we change the way we live now.

Bill Clinton has become the latest evangelist for Mr. Gore's gospel, proclaiming that current weather events show that he and Mr. Gore were right about global warming, and we are all suffering the consequences of President Bush's obtuseness on the matter. And why not? Mr. Gore assures us that "the debate in the scientific community is over."

That statement, which Mr. Gore made in an interview with George Stephanopoulos on ABC, ought to have been followed by an asterisk. What exactly is this debate that Mr. Gore is referring to? Is there really a scientific community that is debating all these issues and then somehow agreeing in unison? Far from such a thing being over, it has never been clear to me what this "debate" actually is in the first place.

The media rarely help, of course. When Newsweek featured global warming in a 1988 issue, it was claimed that all scientists agreed. Periodically thereafter it was revealed that although there had been lingering doubts beforehand, now all scientists did indeed agree. Even Mr. Gore qualified his statement on ABC only a few minutes after he made it, clarifying things in an important way. When Mr. Stephanopoulos confronted Mr. Gore with the fact that the best estimates of rising sea levels are far less dire than he suggests in his movie, Mr. Gore defended his claims by noting that scientists "don't have any models that give them a high level of confidence" one way or the other and went on to claim--in his defense--that scientists "don't know. . . . They just don't know."

So, presumably, those scientists do not belong to the "consensus." Yet their research is forced, whether the evidence supports it or not, into Mr. Gore's preferred global-warming template--namely, shrill alarmism. To believe it requires that one ignore the truly inconvenient facts. To take the issue of rising sea levels, these include: that the Arctic was as warm or warmer in 1940; that icebergs have been known since time immemorial; that the evidence so far suggests that the Greenland ice sheet is actually growing on average. A likely result of all this is increased pressure pushing ice off the coastal perimeter of that country, which is depicted so ominously in Mr. Gore's movie. In the absence of factual context, these images are perhaps dire or alarming.

They are less so otherwise. Alpine glaciers have been retreating since the early 19th century, and were advancing for several centuries before that. Since about 1970, many of the glaciers have stopped retreating and some are now advancing again. And, frankly, we don't know why.

The other elements of the global-warming scare scenario are predicated on similar oversights. Malaria, claimed as a byproduct of warming, was once common in Michigan and Siberia and remains common in Siberia--mosquitoes don't require tropical warmth. Hurricanes, too, vary on multidecadal time scales; sea-surface temperature is likely to be an important factor. This temperature, itself, varies on multidecadal time scales. However, questions concerning the origin of the relevant sea-surface temperatures and the nature of trends in hurricane intensity are being hotly argued within the profession.

Even among those arguing, there is general agreement that we can't attribute any particular hurricane to global warming. To be sure, there is one exception, Greg Holland of the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colo., who argues that it must be global warming because he can't think of anything else. While arguments like these, based on lassitude, are becoming rather common in climate assessments, such claims, given the primitive state of weather and climate science, are hardly compelling.

A general characteristic of Mr. Gore's approach is to assiduously ignore the fact that the earth and its climate are dynamic; they are always changing even without any external forcing. To treat all change as something to fear is bad enough; to do so in order to exploit that fear is much worse. Regardless, these items are clearly not issues over which debate is ended--at least not in terms of the actual science.

A clearer claim as to what debate has ended is provided by the environmental journalist Gregg Easterbrook. He concludes that the scientific community now agrees that significant warming is occurring, and that there is clear evidence of human influences on the climate system. This is still a most peculiar claim. At some level, it has never been widely contested. Most of the climate community has agreed since 1988 that global mean temperatures have increased on the order of one degree Fahrenheit over the past century, having risen significantly from about 1919 to 1940, decreased between 1940 and the early '70s, increased again until the '90s, and remaining essentially flat since 1998.

There is also little disagreement that levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere have risen from about 280 parts per million by volume in the 19th century to about 387 ppmv today. Finally, there has been no question whatever that carbon dioxide is an infrared absorber (i.e., a greenhouse gas--albeit a minor one), and its increase should theoretically contribute to warming. Indeed, if all else were kept equal, the increase in carbon dioxide should have led to somewhat more warming than has been observed, assuming that the small observed increase was in fact due to increasing carbon dioxide rather than a natural fluctuation in the climate system. Although no cause for alarm rests on this issue, there has been an intense effort to claim that the theoretically expected contribution from additional carbon dioxide has actually been detected.

Given that we do not understand the natural internal variability of climate change, this task is currently impossible. Nevertheless there has been a persistent effort to suggest otherwise, and with surprising impact. Thus, although the conflicted state of the affair was accurately presented in the 1996 text of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the infamous "summary for policy makers" reported ambiguously that "The balance of evidence suggests a discernible human influence on global climate." This sufficed as the smoking gun for Kyoto.

The next IPCC report again described the problems surrounding what has become known as the attribution issue: that is, to explain what mechanisms are responsible for observed changes in climate. Some deployed the lassitude argument--e.g., we can't think of an alternative--to support human attribution. But the "summary for policy makers" claimed in a manner largely unrelated to the actual text of the report that "In the light of new evidence and taking into account the remaining uncertainties, most of the observed warming over the last 50 years is likely to have been due to the increase in greenhouse gas concentrations."

In a similar vein, the National Academy of Sciences issued a brief (15-page) report responding to questions from the White House. It again enumerated the difficulties with attribution, but again the report was preceded by a front end that ambiguously claimed that "The changes observed over the last several decades are likely mostly due to human activities, but we cannot rule out that some significant part of these changes is also a reflection of natural variability." This was sufficient for CNN's Michelle Mitchell to presciently declare that the report represented a "unanimous decision that global warming is real, is getting worse and is due to man. There is no wiggle room." Well, no.

More recently, a study in the journal Science by the social scientist Nancy Oreskes claimed that a search of the ISI Web of Knowledge Database for the years 1993 to 2003 under the key words "global climate change" produced 928 articles, all of whose abstracts supported what she referred to as the consensus view. A British social scientist, Benny Peiser, checked her procedure and found that only 913 of the 928 articles had abstracts at all, and that only 13 of the remaining 913 explicitly endorsed the so-called consensus view. Several actually opposed it.

Even more recently, the Climate Change Science Program, the Bush administration's coordinating agency for global-warming research, declared it had found "clear evidence of human influences on the climate system." This, for Mr. Easterbrook, meant: "Case closed." What exactly was this evidence? The models imply that greenhouse warming should impact atmospheric temperatures more than surface temperatures, and yet satellite data showed no warming in the atmosphere since 1979. The report showed that selective corrections to the atmospheric data could lead to some warming, thus reducing the conflict between observations and models descriptions of what greenhouse warming should look like. That, to me, means the case is still very much open.

So what, then, is one to make of this alleged debate? I would suggest at least three points.

First, nonscientists generally do not want to bother with understanding the science. Claims of consensus relieve policy types, environmental advocates and politicians of any need to do so. Such claims also serve to intimidate the public and even scientists--especially those outside the area of climate dynamics.
Secondly, given that the question of human attribution largely cannot be resolved, its use in promoting visions of disaster constitutes nothing so much as a bait-and-switch scam. That is an inauspicious beginning to what Mr. Gore claims is not a political issue but a "moral" crusade.
Lastly, there is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition. An earlier attempt at this was accompanied by tragedy. Perhaps Marx was right. This time around we may have farce--if we're lucky.


http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008597

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: Ooops
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2006, 04:03:19 PM »


"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle