Author Topic: on reflection  (Read 11696 times)

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Plane

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on reflection
« on: June 15, 2010, 10:54:07 PM »
We are the reflection. Even the moon itself is a reflection.

Anyway, that's enough.



All an eye can perceive is light , without perception we don't know anything is there.

Everything I know abut you I know from the glow of a screen , is what you are saying literally true?

Kramer

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Re: on reflection
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2010, 10:58:11 PM »
We are the reflection. Even the moon itself is a reflection.

Anyway, that's enough.



All an eye can perceive is light , without perception we don't know anything is there.

Everything I know abut you I know from the glow of a screen , is what you are saying literally true?

I wonder if Stevie Wonder wonders those types of thoughts?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 12:05:53 AM by Kramer »

Michael Tee

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Re: on reflection
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2010, 11:37:18 PM »
Take it one step further and you have pure solipsism - - the whole universe exists nowhere but inside my own head and once I die, that's the end of the whole ball of wax.

BSB

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Re: on reflection
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2010, 11:40:45 PM »
On the literally true side (from what I understand): The eye doesn't "see". It feeds information, measurements, shades, etc., back to the brain and the brain manufactures a picture based on that information.

A reflection of the moon in water: Metaphorical. You and I are like a reflection of the moon in water. How so? The reflection of the moon in a lake makes the moon appear to be there in the water, but of course it isn't, it's merely a reflection. What makes it appear though is a series of "conditions". The Buddhists call this "conditioned existence", also "emptiness".  If there are clouds, or the angle of the moon isn't right, or the phase doesn't allow for a reflection, etc., etc., the moon won't appear in the water of the lake.  The "conditions" weren't right.

You and I, the actual moon, mountains, trees, everything you see, feel, taste, think, and so on are like that reflection in that we only appear, exist, due to certain conditions. When those conditions change we no longer appear, exist. If the conditions that made the entire universe appear hadn't existed, there wouldn't be a universe. And if you believe in God, you can factor God into that.

So, we are a reflection in that we exist due to conditions. We aren't the solid phenomenon that we think we are. We don't exist on our on side only. We exist due to a series of other factors, or conditions. No different then the moons reflection in water.

Why might that understanding be important in the relief from suffering that is the point of Buddhism? That's up to you to figure out, or not, as you wish. 


Universe Prince

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Re: on reflection
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2010, 12:10:13 AM »

So, we are a reflection in that we exist due to conditions. We aren't the solid phenomenon that we think we are. We don't exist on our on side only. We exist due to a series of other factors, or conditions. No different then the moons reflection in water.


I don't agree. Our existence is not a trick of light and perception. Therefore we are not reflections. Just as the moon itself is not its reflection in the water. Saying we are like reflections in water because we exist due to a series of conditions, is a cute but largely meaningless trick of words.

Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Kramer

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Re: on reflection
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2010, 12:11:55 AM »
On the literally true side (from what I understand): The eye doesn't "see". It feeds information, measurements, shades, etc., back to the brain and the brain manufactures a picture based on that information.

A reflection of the moon in water: Metaphorical. You and I are like a reflection of the moon in water. How so? The reflection of the moon in a lake makes the moon appear to be there in the water, but of course it isn't, it's merely a reflection. What makes it appear though is a series of "conditions". The Buddhists call this "conditioned existence", also "emptiness".  If there are clouds, or the angle of the moon isn't right, or the phase doesn't allow for a reflection, etc., etc., the moon won't appear in the water of the lake.  The "conditions" weren't right.

You and I, the actual moon, mountains, trees, everything you see, feel, taste, think, and so on are like that reflection in that we only appear, exist, due to certain conditions. When those conditions change we no longer appear, exist. If the conditions that made the entire universe appear hadn't existed, there wouldn't be a universe. And if you believe in God, you can factor God into that.

So, we are a reflection in that we exist due to conditions. We aren't the solid phenomenon that we think we are. We don't exist on our on side only. We exist due to a series of other factors, or conditions. No different then the moons reflection in water.

Why might that understanding be important in the relief from suffering that is the point of Buddhism? That's up to you to figure out, or not, as you wish. 



Or imagine life, beyond life on earth, acquiring a new body and leaving the suffering behind. You still can get relief NOW in the understanding that in the future nirvana will be your next home. Just a different way to look at it.

BSB

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Re: on reflection
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2010, 12:39:25 AM »
"Saying we are like reflections.............................due to a series of conditions................trick of words"

Think so do you?

Move the moon out further away from the earth and the entire topography of the planet changes. Move it closer and it changes in a different way. Get cancer, a change in conditions, then tell me it's a trick of words. Change just an infinitesimal piece of your DNA and you are a different person.

Plane

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Re: on reflection
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2010, 01:22:33 AM »
Does DeCartes "I think therefore I am" apply?

Kramer

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Re: on reflection
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2010, 01:24:39 AM »
Does DeCartes "I think therefore I am" apply?

more like

I am, therefore I think

Plane

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Re: on reflection
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2010, 01:29:01 AM »
Does DeCartes "I think therefore I am" apply?

more like

I am, therefore I think


Oh, wouldn't it be nice if that were true!

Kramer

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Re: on reflection
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2010, 01:46:32 AM »
Does DeCartes "I think therefore I am" apply?

more like

I am, therefore I think


Oh, wouldn't it be nice if that were true!

I notice your question is missing a question mark.

BSB

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Re: on reflection
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2010, 02:10:24 AM »
>>Does De Cartes "I think" apply<<

Not to you.

Plane

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Re: on reflection
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2010, 06:26:54 AM »
>>Does De Cartes "I think" apply<<

Not to you.



Oh!

To the Quick!
To the Quick!

I am cut to the quick!

BSB

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Re: on reflection
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2010, 10:45:03 AM »
I learned a lot about you in this thread, Plane. Thank you.

Universe Prince

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Re: on reflection
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2010, 11:38:24 AM »

"Saying we are like reflections.............................due to a series of conditions................trick of words"

Think so do you?


I said so, didn't I?


Move the moon out further away from the earth and the entire topography of the planet changes. Move it closer and it changes in a different way. Get cancer, a change in conditions, then tell me it's a trick of words. Change just an infinitesimal piece of your DNA and you are a different person.


Yes, changes in conditions make situations different. That hardly makes us all like reflections in water. One could just as easily say that changes in conditions make us like birds or french fries or cancer cells or trees or space travel or relationships, or any of an endless list of things that can change based on conditions. It's cute and pseudo-profound to say we're all like the reflection of the moon on water, but it doesn't actually mean anything. It's a trick of words.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--