Author Topic: on reflection  (Read 11695 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

BSB

  • Guest
Re: on reflection
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2010, 12:30:16 PM »
UP, I'm not to sure you can digest shunyata, emptiness, as quickly as you claim to have and then judge it to be wanting, a trick of words, pseudo, etc. But if you're comfortable doing that then that's fine with me.

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: on reflection
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2010, 04:15:46 PM »
I did not claim to have digested anything quickly. This isn't the first time I've encountered the idea that everything is insubstantial or "empty" of inherent existence. I do not agree with that idea. And yes, I do think it amounts to a trick of words. I do (to a degree) get that the idea is supposed to lead to spiritual insight and peace. Perhaps I misunderstand it in some way, but I do not agree with the idea as I have seen it explained.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BSB

  • Guest
Re: on reflection
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2010, 04:39:32 PM »
>>>> "empty" of inherent existence. I do not agree with that idea. <<<<

Inherent in terms of permenent, or having a seperate self, yes, the Buddhists don't buy that. Anyway, I was just explaining it a litte, no obligation required on the part of the reader. Soooo, tell we meet again then.


Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: on reflection
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2010, 07:18:17 PM »
I learned a lot about you in this thread, Plane. Thank you.


?


I hope that wasn't all .

I won't ever be sure that I caught on.

Stray Pooch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 860
  • Pray tell me, sir, whose dog are you?
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: on reflection
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2010, 10:00:06 PM »
" . . . a trick of words . . ."

I think that exact phrase has been applied to Anselm's ontological argument for the existence of God.  But I'm not sure that such a criticism is any more substantial than the thing it critiques. 

There is, I think, a measure of the abstract in all existence.  Some people call it spiritual, some metaphysical, some the Gospel, the Tao or simply the mystical.   Science allows us to view, measure and verify the concrete, physical substance of nature.  But if we remove all of that which is physical, what is left?  We know that science offers us physical explanations for things like feelings, thoughts, emotions and such.  But what are the things themselves?  If I say I'm in love with my wife, some will cite hormonal reactions, some will measure my heart rate or blood pressure increase (or decrease) when I am near her.  Some will insist that the emotional, erotic or asthetic reactions I feel are based on these physical responses to the stimulus of her presence.  Others will argue that the feelings themselves produce the physical reactions.  But none of these approaches will actually define the thing itself. 

If there is a spiritual substance, how can we define it or measure it in a physical way?  Whether we are discussing the existence of God, the power of magic, some paranormal force or the oneness of the universe we are discussing a reality that (if it exists at all) cannot be defined in real (physical) terms.  The best we can do is use our physical senses and communications capabilities to express ideas.  That's good enough to discuss, say, a tree because we all perceive trees consistently.  (To remove an objection, what I see as a tree might look to me like what you see as a frog, but we will see all trees or frogs the same way individually.)  But while for practical, physical reasons we all know what a tree is, I would argue that nobody ever sees a tree itself.  We see the reflection of light off of a tree, not the tree itself.  We feel the reaction of our nereves to contact with the bark of the tree - not the bark itself.  We hear the vibration of our inner ear caused by the wind rustling the leaves - not the wind or the leaves themselves.  But outside of a biology class, which seeks only the concrete, or a discussion like this, which seeks only the abstract, we don't give much thought to the existence of the tree when someone shouts "WATCH OUT FOR THAT TREE!"  But the idea of a tree, a frog or a person - that which, removed from the physical, or the spiritual, simply exists - that cannot be defined as an absolute truth.  Not yet, at least, not on this plane of existence.

I'm not trying to define BSB's concept (though it sure sounds like it, doesn't it?).  I wouldn't know where to begin - since I make no claim to understand it in the first place.  My point isn't whether we are real or a reflection (or memorex for that matter).  I'm really actually sticking to my original point, about the term "trick of words."   Words are pretty much all we have to discuss any concept higher than maybe "big, scary thing behind you!"  Words are a trick in themselves.  Every idea we have is expressed in words, which can have many meanings and denotations and connotations and nuances (oh that word!).  If this were not so we wouldn't have thousands of Christian sects all reading the same Bible and coming up with wildly divergent doctrines or thousands of lawyers reading a short document written over two centuries ago and making a damn fine living arguing about what it all means.   But words are completely inadequate to express the most profound ideas.  That's why everyone relates to the phrase "Words fail me."  They often do. 

So if the only tool BSB has to try to express a deeply profound personal concept is words, he has no choice but to use an imperfect instrument to describe a perfect ideal.  To convey even a portion of such an ideal with words requires all the tricks one can force out of them.  I understand that feeling.  I cannot begin to describe what I mean when I say "I love my wife" or "I know that my redeemer lives."  Words fail me.  If conveying those sorts of ideals must be done with words, than calling something a "trick of words" is not a disqualification of its meaning. 

Anselm's argument fails when other "tricks of words" are applied to it.  Yet it expresses something that, in spite of its own imperfection, is nevertheless perfect - and true.
Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: on reflection
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2010, 11:57:01 PM »
Sci Am magazine this month has a good article about time.

Is the nature of time an illusion we are forced to perceive by the nature of our existance?


Fun to play with , but the nature ofour existance being necessacery to our existance , we are gonna be stuck with the illusion as our reality .


Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: on reflection
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2010, 01:30:38 AM »
Yes, Pooch, words can be tricky things. But a difference of understanding and what I'm calling a trick of words are not the same thing.

This sentence is not true. That is a trick of words. To say we are all like the reflection of the moon on water because conditions change things is little better.

Yes, St. Anselm's philosophical "proof" of God may well be considered a trick of words. But then I wasn't defending that. All I did was express my disagreement with BSB's comments about humans being or being like reflections of the moon in water.

I am reminded of the movie "Mystery Men". The character of the Sphinx had all these sayings. "He who questions training, only trains himself at asking questions." "When you can balance a tack hammer on your head, you will head off your foes with a balanced attack." Tricks of words. That something superficially seems profound does not mean it actually is profound.

I agree that saying something of a deep and truly profound nature is sometimes difficult with the words we have. But sometimes it's not the words that fail us, but rather our vocabularies. When we say 'love' every time we mean 'like very much' and use 'very' every time we mean 'more than a little' and use 'awesome' when we mean 'very good' we ruin our vocabularies. When we try to express true awe or true love, our words fail us because we have cheapened them to the point of being almost meaningless. And when we use word tricks to attempt to replicate being profound, we serve only to muddy the notion of what is and is not profound.

As I said before, perhaps I misunderstand in some way the concept BSB tried to communicate. But his statements are not my first exposure to the idea. So I'm not trying to pick on BSB. I'm saying I disagree with what he said. And I know what he said seems like it should be profound. I do not believe it is. I think it amounts to a trick of words. The meaning isn't profound. The meaning is (and I know this is somewhat ironic to say) empty.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BSB

  • Guest
Re: on reflection
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2010, 01:50:30 AM »
People, there's nothing to agree or disagree with. Emptiness is a fact. Everything exists because of other things that exist. No part of the whole can exist without the whole.

The problem is we aren't wired to see it that way. That realization isn't important to our survival. In fact, having everything appear to be separate was good for our survival if for no other reason then it worked. But, it's a false assumption. There isn't a reputable scientist in the world today that wouldn't tell you that emptiness is scientificly accurate.

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: on reflection
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2010, 01:59:01 AM »

Emptiness is a fact. Everything exists because of other things that exist.


How does "everything exists because of other things that exist" equal "emptiness"?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BSB

  • Guest
Re: on reflection
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2010, 02:04:20 AM »
That's what shunyata, emptiness, means UP. It means everything is inderdependent. Nothing exists on its own.

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: on reflection
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2010, 02:04:37 AM »

having everything appear to be separate


What does that even mean?


There isn't a reputable scientist in the world today that wouldn't tell you that emptiness is scientificly accurate.


Then show me the scientific proof.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BSB

  • Guest
Re: on reflection
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2010, 02:07:49 AM »
The proof? You can start with Darwin.


Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: on reflection
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2010, 02:08:12 AM »

That's what shunyata, emptiness, means UP. It means everything is inderdependent. Nothing exists on its own.


'Everything is interdependent' and 'emptiness' do not have the same meaning. You might as well be telling me 'fishsticks' means 'everything is made of atoms'.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: on reflection
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2010, 02:10:03 AM »

The proof? You can start with Darwin.


Really? Darwin mentions shunyata? I'm skeptical.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BSB

  • Guest
Re: on reflection
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2010, 02:14:14 AM »
Lol, Darwin is about the enviorment shaping what's in it.

You said you understood emptiness. It doesn't appear like you understand any of it.