Author Topic: on reflection  (Read 11694 times)

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Plane

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Re: on reflection
« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2010, 02:12:24 PM »
   I grew up on a cattle farm , you are speaking of my element.

   I think your idea is plausable , but not absolutely ....


    BsB must know as well as anyone that concepts of this nature are slippery and difficult .

Universe Prince

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Re: on reflection
« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2010, 01:29:15 AM »
From the link BSB provided:
         What is emptiness then? To understand the philosophical meaning of this term, let's look at a simple solid object, such as a cup. How is a cup empty? We usually say that a cup is empty if it does not contain any liquid or solid. This is the ordinary meaning of emptiness. But, is the cup really empty? A cup empty of liquids or solids is still full of air. To be precise, we must therefore state what the cup is empty of. Can a cup be empty of all substance? A cup in a vacuum does not contain any air, but it still contains space, light, radiation, as well as its own substance. Hence, from a physical point of view, the cup is always full of something. Yet, from the Buddhist point of view, the cup is always empty. The Buddhist understanding of emptiness is different from the physical meaning. The cup being empty means that it is devoid of inherent existence.

What is meant with non-inherent existence? Is this to say that the cup does not ultimately exist? - Not quite. - The cup exists, but like everything in this world, its existence depends on other phenomena. There is nothing in a cup that is inherent to that specific cup or to cups in general. Properties such as being hollow, spherical, cylindrical, or leak-proof are not intrinsic to cups. Other objects which are not cups have similar properties, as for example vases and glasses. The cup's properties and components are neither cups themselves nor do they imply cupness on their own. The material is not the cup. The shape is not the cup. The function is not the cup. Only all these aspects together make up the cup. Hence, we can say that for an object to be a cup we require a collection of specific conditions to exist. It depends on the combination of function, use, shape, base material, and the cup's other aspects. Only if all these conditions exist simultaneously does the mind impute cupness to the object. If one condition ceases to exist, for instance, if the cup's shape is altered by breaking it, the cup forfeits some or all of its cupness, because the object's function, its shape, as well as the imputation of cupness through perception is disrupted. The cup's existence thus depends on external circumstances. Its physical essence remains elusive.

Those readers who are familiar with the theory of ideas of the Greek philosopher Plato will notice that this is pretty much the antithesis to Plato's idealism. Plato holds that there is an ideal essence of everything, e.g. cups, tables, houses, humans, and so on. Perhaps we can give Plato some credit by assuming that the essence of cups ultimately exists in the realm of mind. After all, it is the mind that perceives properties of an object and imputes cupness onto one object and tableness onto another. It is the mind that thinks "cup" and "table". Does it follow that the mind is responsible for the existence of these objects? - Apparently, the mind does not perceive cups and tables if there is no visual and tactile sensation. And, there cannot be visual and tactile sensation if there is no physical object. The perception thus depends on the presence of sensations, which in turn relies on the presence of the physical object. This is to say that the cup's essence is not in the mind. It is neither to be found in the physical object. Obviously, its essence is neither physical nor mental. It cannot be found in the world, not in the mind, and certainly not in any heavenly realm, as Plato imagined. We must conclude that the objects of perception have therefore no inherent existence.

If this is the case for a simple object, such as a cup, then it must also apply to compound things, such as cars, houses, machines, etc. A car, for example, needs a motor, wheels, axles, gears, and many other things to work. Perhaps we should consider the difference between man-made objects, such as cups, and natural phenomena, such as earth, plants, animals, and human beings. One may argue that lack of inherent existence of objects does not imply the same for natural phenomena and beings. In case of a human being, there is a body, a mind, a character, a history of actions, habits, behaviour, and other things we can draw upon to describe a person. We can even divide these characteristics further into more fundamental properties. For example, we can analyse the mind and see that there are sensations, cognition, feelings, ideas. Or, we can analyse the brain and find that there are neurons, axons, synapses, and neurotransmitters. However, none of these constituents describe the essence of the person, the mind, or the brain. Again, the essence remains elusive.

This is better than the circular reasoning presented by BSB. This attempts to explain the meaning of the Buddhist idea of emptiness beyond the "because it is" comments BSB barely bothered to muster up.

That said, I still do not agree. For one thing, the author seems to conflate existence with essence. For another, while I don't claim Plato is correct, the author of the article discards Plato's idea without actually providing any reason why Plato was wrong. And he seems to move on to conclusions that I don't believe he has established. I understand the author is moving rapidly over an idea that is probably something about which books could be written. He says, however, "We must conclude..." and I do not see anything that actually requires his conclusion.

Possibly this is because I still don't "get it" yet. I don't mean to say the author is entirely wrong. But I believe that both practically and philosophically speaking, what he describes is better served by the ideas of mutability and interdependence, and possibly contingency. My problems with understanding the Buddhist idea of "emptiness" are, in essence (no pun intended), twofold. One, I think trying to use a single English word to hold what, as best as I can determine, is/are idiomatic meanings of a Sanskrit word, shunyata, is sort of like expecting the French word "mort" to hold all of the idiomatic English uses of the word "dead". It's only going to confuse the issue. Two, my philosophy is certainly more existentialist in nature than Buddhist. (Though I would not try to apply existentialism too literally as a label for my philosophical beliefs. So please don't start telling me I'm not an existentialist.) Which means my thinking is not at all in alignment with Buddhist thinking. So it may be that I'm not ever going to "get it". Though that doesn't mean I won't try or am unwilling to learn.

This post should not be taken as a full reply to the article at the other end of the link BSB provided. I wish simply to indicate that I have read it and thought about it. I see little point in saying more at this time.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

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Re: on reflection
« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2010, 02:17:32 AM »
Well ......

Is a cup a cup before any person calls it a cup?


Recently I invented something , what was it before I invented it ?


If I am driveing nails with it , is it still a cup or is it now a hammer?

Amianthus

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Re: on reflection
« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2010, 09:53:25 AM »
"What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Stray Pooch

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Re: on reflection
« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2010, 10:22:53 AM »
"What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."

"There is nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so."
Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

Henny

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Re: on reflection
« Reply #65 on: June 21, 2010, 01:07:15 PM »
BSB asked me to post this on his behalf:



Plane "If I am driveing nails with it , is it still a cup or is it now a
hammer?"

Very good, Plane. Now you're moving in the right direction.

"Last night a wooden horse neighed and a stone man cut capers" from a
Zen koan or poem

=================

UP

Stop accepting, rejecting, accepting, rejecting.................this is
right, this is wrong, this is right, this is
wrong..................grasping this, grasping that, holding onto this,
holding onto that.................................if you think this is
this and nothing else, if you think that is that and nothing else, your
mind is grasping.......grasping leads to
suffering/dissatisfaction..........emptiness is a means/tool to help you
stop grasping.........in the end, all of the Buddha's teachings are
about stopping suffering/dissatisfaction.........there is no
Buddhism.....there is no Buddha......... there is only you watching your
mind watch your mind.........mindfulness.........be mindful of your
thoughts, but don't grasp onto them.......a cup isn't a cup...it can be
a hammer............if you grasp at the concept of a cup, the next thing
you know you'll want another cup....this cup isn't good enough.........I
want a cup with my name in diamonds on it......then it's hey, I want
more diamonds......lets exploit all those dirt poor African kids and get
MORE diamonds.....but, a diamond doesn't have a self............it's
interdependent.....it's empty......why grasp onto it?............your
thoughts are interdependent also......why grasp onto them?.....why build
your house of them?.........they aren't solid.......they have no
separate self......they'll only fall apart later when conditions
change......think of all those thoughts you, everybody, had in the wake
of 9/11...........where are they now?......think of the world you,
everybody, constructed using those post 9/11
thoughts/concepts.........where is that world now?........it was a
conditioned world.........it had no independent self.......

If you were in a Zendo the master would sneak up behind you and whack
you with a stick.

UP, everybody does what you do. That's the problem. I'm no singling you
out.

BSB

Universe Prince

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Re: on reflection
« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2010, 11:19:51 PM »
Quote

grasping leads to suffering/dissatisfaction


I'm okay with occasional dissatisfaction. I don't look to be always satisfied or to avoid suffering altogether. I participate here, don't I? (bah-dum-chish) Seriously though, I don't mind being dissatisfied sometimes. That's part of life. Sure, it can be frustrating in the moment, but it is part of learning and part of life. It makes the moments of satisfaction all the more enjoyable.

Quote

..........emptiness is a means/tool to help you stop grasping.........in the end, all of the Buddha's teachings are about stopping suffering/dissatisfaction.........


I am not convinced all suffering and dissatisfaction should end. A lot of it, yes. All of it, no.

Quote

there is only you watching your mind watch your mind.........


Believe it or not, I get that. I have contemplated that before, and there is some truth to it.

Quote

............your thoughts are interdependent also......why grasp onto them?.....why build your house of them?.........they aren't solid.......they have no separate self......they'll only fall apart later when conditions change......think of all those thoughts you, everybody, had in the wake of 9/11...........where are they now?......think of the world you, everybody, constructed using those post 9/11 thoughts/concepts.........where is that world now?........it was a conditioned world.........it had no independent self.......


Yes. Things change. I change. Again, I'm okay with that. "they'll only fall apart later when conditions change..." No. They don't. Once upon a time in my life they might have. But I am less rigid in my thinking than I used to be. I am more adaptable. So my thoughts might change, but they won't fall apart. I seek understanding, so, to be perfectly honest, I expect my thoughts to change. My understanding is never complete.

Quote

If you were in a Zendo the master would sneak up behind you and whack you with a stick.


And I'd probably deserve it.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

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Re: on reflection
« Reply #67 on: June 21, 2010, 11:38:07 PM »
BSB asked me to post this on his behalf:



Plane "If I am driveing nails with it , is it still a cup or is it now a
hammer?"

Very good, Plane. Now you're moving in the right direction.

"Last night a wooden horse neighed and a stone man cut capers" from a
Zen koan or poem

=================

BSB


http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Zen-Buddhism-D-T-Suzuki/dp/0802130550

Quote
"Look at the dust riseing over the sea and hear the roar of waves over the land."


You know I am courious , without really having any goal. Is that reprehensible or laudable?