Author Topic: McChrystal fired.....Obama picks Petraeus for Afghanistan  (Read 11857 times)

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Christians4LessGvt

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Re: McChrystal fired.....Obama picks Petraeus for Afghanistan
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2010, 01:15:10 PM »
it happens.....I'm just glad Obama picked a great replacement...to me really the whole
episode is a plus and bad news for the Taliban to be facing Petraeus instead of McChrystal

In 1977, President Jimmy Carter fired General John Singlaub who was chief of staff of U.S.
forces in South Korea. General Singluab publicly criticized President Jimmy Carter's decision
to withdraw U.S. troops from the Korean peninsula. On March 21, 1977, Carter relieved him
of duty for overstepping his bounds and failing to respect the President's authority as
Commander-in-Chief.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_K._Singlaub

"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

R.R.

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Re: McChrystal fired.....Obama picks Petraeus for Afghanistan
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2010, 01:33:17 PM »
Petraeus is a great general. But will he continue his duties as cent com commander and take over the operations of Afghanstan? If so, he is being stretched too thin and Obama is asking too much from this great man.  Petraus really is bailing out the thin skinned Obama from disaster, and I hope Obama is very thankful. Obama has bad mouthed him before.

Henny

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Re: McChrystal fired.....Obama picks Petraeus for Afghanistan
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2010, 02:11:14 PM »
I think this is REALLY simple. McChrystal overstepped big time. NO Commander in Chief should take it. And I don't care who the Commander in Chief is - Bush, Obama, or other. There are also bigger ramifications of the kind of attitude that McChrystal displayed other than wounded "dignity" - there is the morale of the troops and the attitude of the soldiers out there doing their jobs. These things do trickle down.

once again obama's instincts are wrong. He should have left the general in place. his poll numbers will go further down. he's an idiot.

Now that's interesting - what IS more important here: Obama's poll numbers or the good of the mission?

Kramer

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Re: McChrystal fired.....Obama picks Petraeus for Afghanistan
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2010, 02:28:32 PM »
I think this is REALLY simple. McChrystal overstepped big time. NO Commander in Chief should take it. And I don't care who the Commander in Chief is - Bush, Obama, or other. There are also bigger ramifications of the kind of attitude that McChrystal displayed other than wounded "dignity" - there is the morale of the troops and the attitude of the soldiers out there doing their jobs. These things do trickle down.

once again obama's instincts are wrong. He should have left the general in place. his poll numbers will go further down. he's an idiot.

Now that's interesting - what IS more important here: Obama's poll numbers or the good of the mission?

to him his poll numbers. you have to remember he always does the opposite of what he should do. his dropping poll numbers are just the result of another bad decision. The general really didn't do anything wrong. tell me, what did he say that was so wrong? The mission is most important, that is why he should have left the general in place!

sirs

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Re: McChrystal fired.....Obama picks Petraeus for Afghanistan
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2010, 03:02:22 PM »
I'm going to have to side with Miss Henny on this one.  McChrystal is a far superior gent and man than Obama, but Obama is his CnC.  McCrystal is to either abide by his commanders decisions, or request a transfer, or resign if he truely doesn't support them.  Criticising the CnC, while still in charge, undermines both morale and objectives

I fully support and would believe McChrsytal's assessment and criticisms of Obama, Biden, etc.  But he needed to vent those words in another venue/format, outside of his roll as head of military operations, in Afghanistan.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Kramer

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Re: McChrystal fired.....Obama picks Petraeus for Afghanistan
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2010, 03:07:33 PM »
I'm going to have to side with Miss Henny on this one.  McChrystal is a far superior gent and man than Obama, but Obama is his CnC.  McCrystal is to either abide by his commanders decisions, or request a transfer, or resign if he truely doesn't support them.  Criticising the CnC, while still in charge, undermines both morale and objectives

I fully support and would believe McChrsytal's assessment and criticisms of Obama, Biden, etc.  But he needed to vent those words in another venue/format, outside of his roll as head of military operations, in Afghanistan.

you just have the hots for henny. That's OK.

sirs

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Re: McChrystal fired.....Obama picks Petraeus for Afghanistan
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2010, 03:08:27 PM »
Yea, that has to be it       ::)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: McChrystal fired.....Obama picks Petraeus for Afghanistan
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2010, 03:17:29 PM »
<<Petraeus is a great general. But will he continue his duties as cent com commander and take over the operations of Afghanstan? If so, he is being stretched too thin and Obama is asking too much from this great man.  Petraus really is bailing out the thin skinned Obama from disaster, and I hope Obama is very thankful. Obama has bad mouthed him before. >>

The comment that I read (I'm sorry I can't find the reference) is that this is actually a demotion for Petraeus because he will have to step down as commander of the overall area and just take charge of one part of the area, Afghanistan.

BT

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Re: McChrystal fired.....Obama picks Petraeus for Afghanistan
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2010, 03:26:03 PM »
Obama has problems with this mission in addition to his generals. He needs to reign in all the various departments that seem to be pulling in different directions, including State, his VP and his NSA.


Christians4LessGvt

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Re: McChrystal fired.....Obama picks Petraeus for Afghanistan
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2010, 04:05:32 PM »
this is actually a demotion for Petraeus because he will have to step down as commander of the overall area and just take charge of one part of the area, Afghanistan.

who cares?...he doesn't strike me as an ego-maniac.

"It's surprising how much you can accomplish if you don't care who gets the credit."
Abraham Lincoln
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Michael Tee

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Re: McChrystal fired.....Obama picks Petraeus for Afghanistan
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2010, 07:43:18 PM »
<<who cares?...he doesn't strike me as an ego-maniac.>>

That's good, cuz after the Afghans finish whipping his ass, at least he won't need to cry to his shrink about it.

sirs

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Re: McChrystal fired.....Obama picks Petraeus for Afghanistan
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2010, 07:49:38 PM »
Not-so-surprising where that buck seems to stop with Tee, when its a Democrat President
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: McChrystal fired.....Obama picks Petraeus for Afghanistan
« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2010, 09:05:52 PM »
Hypocrisy of the Left - A General Crisis
MICHAEL REAGAN 

Gen. Stanley McChrystal, who until today was the leader of U.S, and NATO forces in Afghanistan, has resigned in the wake of derogatory comments made by the general and his staff during an interview with Rolling Stone magazine.

One can only guess at this point why the general chose to publicly disclose his feelings on an array of topics in an on-the-record capacity to a journalist associated with this particular magazine, not one generally associated with thought-provoking foreign policy pieces. The president chose wisely in quickly replacing Gen. McChrystal with someone with impeccable credentials and a record of accomplishing military objectives that at first glance may seem to be unobtainable.

You may remember this man as Gen. David Petraeus, the former commander of forces in Iraq who crafted, implemented and led the famous surge that ultimately saved countless American and Iraqi lives. Interestingly, this is the same David Petraeus who faced the wrath of the uber-progressive MoveOn.org during that same timeframe. MoveOn launched a controversial ad entitled "Petraeus Betray Us," which drew the wrath of a majority of Americans who felt it wholly inappropriate to attack a United States general who was in the field leading American personnel into battle. At the time, 72 sitting United States senators agreed.

On September 20, 2007, Senator John Cornyn of Texas (R) offered Senate Amendment 2934, which set out to: "express the sense of the Senate that General David H. Petraeus, Commanding General, Multi-National Force-Iraq, deserves the full support of the Senate and strongly condemn personal attacks on the honor and integrity of General Petraeus and all members of the United States Armed Forces." The measure passed overwhelmingly with 72 "yeas" to 25 "nays" and 3 not voting.

It will not surprise many of you to see the likes of Hillary Clinton, Chuck Schumer or Harry Reid voting against a measure that supported the leader of our armed forces engaged in battle in favor of a progressive grassroots organization. But what should concern many of us is that then-Sen. Obama decided to seek political refuge by not casting a vote. Then-Sen. Joe Biden did the same.

Gen. McChrystal, despite his proud military record, exercised extremely poor judgment in allowing such dismissing comments about the Obama administration to be aired in a public forum. The president's choice to replace him is an understandable decision.

Less understandable is how President Obama can demand a respect he has been inconsistent in offering to others. In 2007, he was unwilling to stand up to the liberal elements of his party in defense of Gen. Petraeus. As he now calls on that same general to rescue him from the political firestorm flowing today and continue the surge in Afghanistan, I express only the greatest admiration for the honor and integrity of David Petraeus.

The war in Afghanistan stands at a crucial point as more American forces pour into the region. While I have nothing but confidence in Gen. Petraeus, the resignation of Gen. McChrystal is an unfortunate loss, and one symptomatic of the tension between the civilian and military dimensions of this effort. As President Obama and Gen. Petraeus move foward in this conflict, I hope the president will begin to take proactive steps to reconcile this divide, listen to the counsel of generals in the field, and increase coordination between all aspects of the fight in Afghanistan. That country, and ours, can afford no less.


Article

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Stray Pooch

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Re: McChrystal fired.....Obama picks Petraeus for Afghanistan
« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2010, 10:00:53 PM »
I'm going to have to side with Miss Henny on this one.  McChrystal is a far superior gent and man than Obama, but Obama is his CnC.  McCrystal is to either abide by his commanders decisions, or request a transfer, or resign if he truely doesn't support them.  Criticising the CnC, while still in charge, undermines both morale and objectives

I fully support and would believe McChrsytal's assessment and criticisms of Obama, Biden, etc.  But he needed to vent those words in another venue/format, outside of his roll as head of military operations, in Afghanistan.

Sirs, I think you hit the nail exactly on the head.

It is unfathomable to me how a person of Gen McChrystal's rank, experience and position could be foolish enough to lose his military bearing in this manner.  There is a danger in becoming too familiar with subordinates or superiors that all soldiers are taught to understand.  It is human nature to become lax in dsicipline around those you work with on a regular basis.  I used to call my company commander by his first name off-duty by his insistence, but I wasn't comfortable with it.  I knew that someday, in a careless moment, I might actually say, "Good Morning, Steve" in front of some visiting general.  In such a case, I wouldn't be the one in trouble - Steve would be. 

General McChrystal forgot that the Commander-in-Chief is not his buddy, his co-worker or even his boss.  The President is the Commander-in-Chief of all of the armed forces not by election, congressional approval or appointment but by Constitutional mandate.  The position of a General Officer is a temporary one, affected by military contingencies, realignment of forces, changes in strategies, shifts in history or politics, and many other factors.  In the time of President George Washington there was no war in Afghanistan, no CENTCOM, no NATO, nor any number of positions filled by General Officers today.  Similarly, there are several commands that existed even during my military career that are no longer there.  But from Washington to Obama, the Commander-in-Chief has always been there - the civilian authority placed over the military.  Bad-mouthing your immediate supervisor is a bad idea.  Bad-mouthing the very top level of all chains-of-command is inexcusable.  When you, yourself, are very near that top, it becomes far more serious.

McChrystal's impressive credentials and accomplishments do not mitigate his insubordination - they exacerbate it.  No officer of his calibre has any business doing what he would rightly court-martial any subordinate of his for doing.  It wasn't just poor judgement.  It was outright arrogance and incredible foolishness. 

MT is wrong to suggest that Obama should have fired him on the spot instead of speaking to him first.  Such a reaction would have been petty, undignified and decidely unpresidential.  When faced with such an insult on the world stage, reacting in a rash manner would have appeared sulking, petulant and whiny.  It would have been a sign of weakness, not strength.  Rather, summoning the general to him - as a subordinate should report to his superior - giving him an opportunity to explain himself and then rendering a decision is the more reasoned, more rational and more mature decision.  President Obama was probably seething, but controlling his actions and dealing with the general in private before taking measures is consistent with the proper way military people do business.  There was no doubt in my mind, nor in the General's, that his career was finished at the point these comments got out.  The White House in this case was nothing more than the woodshed.  But the proper procedures, consistent not only with the dignity of the general but more importantly the dignity of the President, needed to be followed.

Obama's actions in this situation were correct, his choice of a predecessor well-considered and executed, and the nation and military can move on now.  It was well done.
Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: McChrystal fired.....Obama picks Petraeus for Afghanistan
« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2010, 10:02:16 PM »
That's good, cuz after the Afghans finish whipping his ass, at least he won't need to cry to his shrink about it.

Michael I wouldn't count on any quick US withdrawl from Afghanistan!
(ps: how's that promise to close Gitmo workin out for ya?...lol)



Obama's choice suggests longer troop presence

By Daniel Dombey in Washington

June 24 2010

Barack Obama's decision to put David Petraeus, America's most celebrated serving general, in charge of
the war in Afghanistan lays groundwork for a longer troop presence in the country
, a senior military figure
told the Financial Times.

The comments by retired General Jack Keane, a leading figure behind the 2007-2008 surge in Iraq who remains
in contact with General Petraeus and General Stanley McChrystal, the previous Afghan commander, highlight
the complicated relationship between the US president and the generals running the war with which he is ever
more identified.

They also come at a time when there is increasing scrutiny of other divisions within Mr Obama's Afghan team,
which includes officials such as Karl Eikenberry, ambassador to Kabul, and Richard Holbrooke, the administration's
envoy to the region, both of whom experienced tensions with Gen McChrystal.

Speaking in the context of Mr Obama's promise to begin withdrawing troops from Afghanistan in July next year,
Gen Keane said: "If we are going to be successful, we will have to extend the political clock in Washington DC
and I don't know anyone who will be better able to do that than Petraeus, if indeed he is able to make the
progress we think he can make."

In congressional testimony last week, when he spoke in his outgoing capacity as head of US central command,
Gen Petraeus warned against rigid timelines. Asked whether the July 2011 date reflected his best personal,
professional judgment, he gave only what he described as a "qualified yes". A day later, after consternation
in the White House, he gave more full-throated support for the president's strategy.

The irony of Mr Obama's decision to replace Gen McChrystal with Gen Petraeus the second time he has dismissed
the commander in Afghanistan in 12 months is that although the president did so to safeguard "strict adherence
to the military chain of command and respect for civilian control", Gen Petraeus's own clout has become much greater
as a result.

"Petraeus was the most celebrated general we had since world war two before he stepped up and took this mission on
Afghanistan," said Gen Keane."Clearly it will enhance his reputation significantly and his ability to influence "that's the
positive aspect of it . . . it gives him influence in the conference room back in Washington DC and the halls of the Congress
of the US and I would also hope in the governments of our allies."

Officials hastened to dismiss any talk of a civilian-military divide. On Thursday, Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the joint
chiefs of staff, said he was "very supportive" of Mr Obama's decision on Gen McChrystal and described Gen Petraeus as
"fully in support" of Mr Obama's Afghanistan strategy. As head of US central command, Gen Petraeus helped shape that policy.

Nevertheless, Gen McChrystal's departure follows a series of incidents involving civilian-military tensions in recent years.
They include doubts within the military establishment about the relatively small force used for the Iraq war in 2003;
reservations in the Pentagon about the surge strategy championed by Gen Petraeus and George W. Bush, then president;
and a difference over policy on Iran, which led to the departure of Adm William Fallon, the previous head of CentCom, in 2008.

In this instance, however, there was no clear policy difference between Gen McChrystal and the administration; instead, the
magazine profile that forced his departure on Wednesday laid bare the tensions between Gen McChrystal's entourage and
figures such as Mr Holbrooke and Mr Eikenberry, as well as including disparaging comments about senior administration officials.

Many past and present military officials have described those remarks as insubordination and called for Gen McChrystal to go.

But there is now a renewed focus on the other, civilian members of the feuding Afghanistan team. "Those locker-room comments
that McChrystal and his staff were making are an indication that we don't have that unity of effort," said Gen Keane.

"The undercurrent was the cynicism about others who are part of this team who are maybe not making the same contribution."

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/132b9fd0-7fb9-11df-91b4-00144feabdc0.html
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 10:48:04 PM by ChristiansUnited4LessGvt »
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987