Author Topic: Warren Buffet  (Read 6964 times)

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Universe Prince

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Re: Warren Buffet
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2007, 02:55:32 AM »

How dare I consider Prince's sacred cow for the meating packing plant!


What sacred cow? You mean human rights?


The ability of the rich to play with their money is an incidental consideration in a fair tax system, while meeting basic needs and providing meaningful opportunity is (or should be) central.


Nonsense. There is nothing fair about taxing (forcibly and/or coercively taking money from) people to create social programs. Making social programs central to a fair tax system is therefore not possible.


Yet what astounds me about Prince is his readiness to impute motives (the "satisfaction" of envy impulses through punitive taxation, he says)


I have yet to see a proposal for a government program to help the poor that does not include some form of an argument about making the wealthy "pay their fair share".


but bristles like a porcupine at the notion that the rich, some of them at least, are just downright greedy, a fact which is a legitimate INCIDENTAL target of the average Joe's take on the matter.


Thank you for proving my point. The wealthy are greedy and therefore deserving of higher taxation as moral punishment. Taxation as punishment. Which, of course, is presented here as moral, when, in point of fact, it is not. Many people who consider taxing the rich at higher rates a moral thing to do like to think of it as some sort of Robin Hood action, taking from the rich and giving to the poor. What those people forget is that Robin Hood stole from the rich, the landowners and peers who were essentially the form of government that existed, because the taxes were too high, because the wealthy peerage were making their money by forcibly taking what rightfully belonged to others. The government taking more money is not the solution. The government leaving people alone and letting the people keep their money is the solution.

No, I do not bristle at the notion that some rich people are greedy. I know they are. Some folks major concern is how to keep making money because whatever they have is never enough. But no, that is not a legitimate target, incidental or otherwise, in the matter of taxes.

And frankly, if you're going to bring greed into this discussion, few things seem more greedy to me than to demand that other people be forced to pay more money to a program that you demand other people operate so that you don't have to do it. Lots of people talk about the greedy rich as having an "I've got mine so screw you" attitude. Demanding government tax the wealthy to take care of the poor is just as much of an "I've got mine so screw you" attitude. It says to me, "I'm not going to give up what I have to help the poor." It says to me, "make those other people do the work and support it because I'm not going to do it." That is greedy. That is selfish. That is a legitimate target in discussing the issue. That is the sacred cow we ought to be taking to the meat packing plant.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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BT

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Re: Warren Buffet
« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2007, 04:06:52 AM »
So it's not about the poor?

gipper

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Re: Warren Buffet
« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2007, 04:31:10 AM »
A little sophistication and common sense would go a long way in a discussion like this. Humans act while possessing multivariate, complex and sometimes conflicting thoughts and emotions. If we're responsible, vigilant and diligent, our reasons for choosing a certain course should be prioritized along the lines of fundamental principles, first, civic virtue, second, and efficacy, third, with our personal interests coinciding with those concerns but not dictating them. Now, of course, there are instances where straight interest-politics is played, and perhaps it is most of the time. But always not only should the effort be made to derive principle from interest, but in arguing the matter in the public forum, principle should predominate, if only because it's usually better (more effective) politics. Thus, the bare statement, "I want a tax break," for example, is more effective stated as, "I need relief so my kids can continue in college," drawing in a societal benefit in the sense that an educated populace, in the aggregate, makes for a strong citizenry.

Matching principle to interest is not the hard part. So often, the dispute lies with choosing (prioritizing) the principles themselves, as in this instance where we all seem to agree that poverty and true economic want (how do you define the latter?) should be ameliorated. Prince puts the highest premium, however, not on alleviating want but on maximizing freedom. I, on the other hand, am inclined to sacrifice some of the prerogatives of liberty for an effective program (which I won't define or describe) of aid and remediation. This latter statement presupposes efficacy, and extends beyond government-run programs to private programs into a coherent whole that can actually get the job done. How to do all this is a separate discussion or a stage of this discussion not yet reached -- at which time I'll defer to Michael or JS because that is not my forte.

Universe Prince

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Re: Warren Buffet
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2007, 05:08:20 AM »

Prince puts the highest premium, however, not on alleviating want but on maximizing freedom.


What you're missing is that I believe maximizing freedom will, in part, result in a better alleviation of want. You seem to think I've made some sort of separation between helping people and protecting liberty. This is not the case. Helping people is the premium, maximizing liberty is merely an aspect of that, as is giving aid to people in need. I don't see alleviating want and personal liberty as mutually exclusive. I see them as two of many interwoven parts of helping humans survive, succeed and flourish. And somewhere along the way, I've lost much of my patience for dealing with the, imo, myopic and immature notion that one must always be sacrificed for the other. Probably because too often someone insists I must be valuing the one over the other because that is all their limited perspective allows them to consider.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

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Re: Warren Buffet
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2007, 05:11:03 AM »

So it's not about the poor?


So what is not about the poor?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BT

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Re: Warren Buffet
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2007, 05:20:06 AM »

Quote
So what is not about the poor?

Why should we do that? Why exemptions and deductions for dependents?  Why is it inherently unfair for everyone to pay their equal share based on a percentage of income?

Because I think too many people "feel" guilty that "the poor" should pay anything even remotely close % wise to what "the rich" pay.  So, as Prince accurately opined, those that have this guilt complex can then relieve some of that by way of manipulating the tax code, so that everyone goes to help "the poor", while they can feel better about keeping as much money for themselves.

sirs

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Re: Warren Buffet
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2007, 11:01:57 AM »
So it's not about the poor?

Not directly, but more so indirectly.  You'll note that more and more of "the poor" are paying less & less in income taxes, but continung to have a say (at least from a state level) on voting for programs that continue to require the taxation of "the rich" (ironically having been removed from the burden by having been relegated to paying very little, if any Federal income tax), to pay for the next well intentioned social program.  CA is starting to make that a guiding governmental principal it would seem.  So, I'm going along with Prince that this is more to do about the guilt many have for the monies they may have, yet feel more inclined for everyone else to "pay their fair share", before they'll voluntarily add more into their taxes payed
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Warren Buffet
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2007, 11:43:33 AM »
Taxes are by their nature not fair, just as diseases, earthquakes, volcanos, botulism and fottfungi are unfair. This does not mean that they are avoidable. If we wish to live in communities rather than in isolation, we will have a government and that government will have expenses.

I suppose Sirs would be happiest if we were to impose the government of H.L. Hunt's "Utopia" called Alpaca, in which the more taxes you paid, the more votes you got. Michael Bloomberg could possibly outvote half the state of West Virginia, perhaps.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BT

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Re: Warren Buffet
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2007, 11:47:05 AM »
Quote
So, I'm going along with Prince that this is more to do about the guilt many have for the monies they may have, yet feel more inclined for everyone else to "pay their fair share", before they'll voluntarily add more into their taxes payed

So the government is in the business of selling indulgences?

Maybe we are a theocracy after all.


sirs

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Re: Warren Buffet
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2007, 12:28:28 PM »
Quote
So, I'm going along with Prince that this is more to do about the guilt many have for the monies they may have, yet feel more inclined for everyone else to "pay their fair share", before they'll voluntarily add more into their taxes payed

So the government is in the business of selling indulgences?

Many, including some in here, are likely very much advocating such, even if not conciously.  Especially if it alleviates their guilt




"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Warren Buffet
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2007, 12:51:28 PM »
Is installing a floor , a level of poverty no one shall be below, more or less the point?


Is installing a ceiling , a level of affluence no one shall rise above ,desireable?

sirs

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Re: Warren Buffet
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2007, 01:13:30 PM »
I suppose Sirs would be happiest if we were to impose the government of H.L. Hunt's "Utopia" called Alpaca, in which the more taxes you paid, the more votes you got.

Actually I'm happiest, when the tax system is applied fairly as best to EVERYONE.  Both a Flat tax and National Sales tax have such a foundation.  How you went from taxes to # of votes, I have no clue, but the idea might have some merit.  Care to expand on your idea?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Amianthus

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Re: Warren Buffet
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2007, 01:24:51 PM »
How you went from taxes to # of votes, I have no clue, but the idea might have some merit.  Care to expand on your idea?

http://dallas.bizjournals.com/dallas/stories/2000/09/25/editorial3.html
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

sirs

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Re: Warren Buffet
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2007, 02:19:55 PM »
So, Xo would appear to be supporting the notion that if one is taxed substantially higher than someone else, then perhaps as a result they should also have a higher vote count they can apply.  Now, if we were to tax folks fairly, where EVERYONE "Pays their fair share", then everyone would have an equal vote. 

And Xo supports the former?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Warren Buffet
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2007, 02:24:24 PM »
Quote
Many, including some in here, are likely very much advocating such, even if not conciously.  Especially if it alleviates their guilt

I am confused about the feeling guilty in the first place.