McChrystal fired.....Obama picks Petraeus for Afghanistan

[Plane]

Yes , the more I think about it the less I see any good alternative for President Obama.

You have it right SP the president did the right thing the right way and with the best grace as could be.

[Michael Tee]

<<MT is wrong to suggest that Obama should have fired him on the spot instead of speaking to him first.  Such a reaction would have been petty, undignified and decidely unpresidential.  When faced with such an insult on the world stage, reacting in a rash manner would have appeared sulking, petulant and whiny.  It would have been a sign of weakness, not strength.  Rather, summoning the general to him - as a subordinate should report to his superior - giving him an opportunity to explain himself and then rendering a decision is the more reasoned, more rational and more mature decision.  President Obama was probably seething, but controlling his actions and dealing with the general in private before taking measures is consistent with the proper way military people do business.  There was no doubt in my mind, nor in the General's, that his career was finished at the point these comments got out.  The White House in this case was nothing more than the woodshed.  But the proper procedures, consistent not only with the dignity of the general but more importantly the dignity of the President, needed to be followed.>>

I yield to your better judgment, Pooch.  When Obama announced that no decision would be made before he had spoken to McChrystal, my interpretation was that he was looking for a face-saving way to appease his right-wing critics and save McChrystal, so a lot of my anger was just sublimated disappointment in a sell-out position that (based on Obama's overall performance to date) I was certain was already a done deal.  I was pleasantly surprised to see that Obama in fact did not back down on this most crucial issuel

[Stray Pooch]

I yield to your better judgment, Pooch. 

Well, it's about damn time!

Now if I could only convince my kids!

When Obama announced that no decision would be made before he had spoken to McChrystal, my interpretation was that he was looking for a face-saving way to appease his right-wing critics and save McChrystal, so a lot of my anger was just sublimated disappointment in a sell-out position that (based on Obama's overall performance to date) I was certain was already a done deal.  I was pleasantly surprised to see that Obama in fact did not back down on this most crucial issuel

No, I didn't think he had much of a choice.  The issue had legs and was fast moving into crisis territory, and with the situation as hot as it  is over there (not to mention the political situation here) there was no percentage in trying to finesse it.  McChrystal came to the White House with a resignation in one hand and travel brochures in the other.  Maybe he can join Barak on the golf course, 'cuz he's gonna have plenty of time on his hands from here on out.

[Kramer]

I'm going to have to side with Miss Henny on this one.  McChrystal is a far superior gent and man than Obama, but Obama is his CnC.  McCrystal is to either abide by his commanders decisions, or request a transfer, or resign if he truely doesn't support them.  Criticising the CnC, while still in charge, undermines both morale and objectives

I fully support and would believe McChrsytal's assessment and criticisms of Obama, Biden, etc.  But he needed to vent those words in another venue/format, outside of his roll as head of military operations, in Afghanistan.

Sirs, I think you hit the nail exactly on the head.

It is unfathomable to me how a person of Gen McChrystal's rank, experience and position could be foolish enough to lose his military bearing in this manner.  There is a danger in becoming too familiar with subordinates or superiors that all soldiers are taught to understand.  It is human nature to become lax in dsicipline around those you work with on a regular basis.  I used to call my company commander by his first name off-duty by his insistence, but I wasn't comfortable with it.  I knew that someday, in a careless moment, I might actually say, "Good Morning, Steve" in front of some visiting general.  In such a case, I wouldn't be the one in trouble - Steve would be. 

General McChrystal forgot that the Commander-in-Chief is not his buddy, his co-worker or even his boss.  The President is the Commander-in-Chief of all of the armed forces not by election, congressional approval or appointment but by Constitutional mandate.  The position of a General Officer is a temporary one, affected by military contingencies, realignment of forces, changes in strategies, shifts in history or politics, and many other factors.  In the time of President George Washington there was no war in Afghanistan, no CENTCOM, no NATO, nor any number of positions filled by General Officers today.  Similarly, there are several commands that existed even during my military career that are no longer there.  But from Washington to Obama, the Commander-in-Chief has always been there - the civilian authority placed over the military.  Bad-mouthing your immediate supervisor is a bad idea.  Bad-mouthing the very top level of all chains-of-command is inexcusable.  When you, yourself, are very near that top, it becomes far more serious.

McChrystal's impressive credentials and accomplishments do not mitigate his insubordination - they exacerbate it.  No officer of his calibre has any business doing what he would rightly court-martial any subordinate of his for doing.  It wasn't just poor judgement.  It was outright arrogance and incredible foolishness. 

MT is wrong to suggest that Obama should have fired him on the spot instead of speaking to him first.  Such a reaction would have been petty, undignified and decidely unpresidential.  When faced with such an insult on the world stage, reacting in a rash manner would have appeared sulking, petulant and whiny.  It would have been a sign of weakness, not strength.  Rather, summoning the general to him - as a subordinate should report to his superior - giving him an opportunity to explain himself and then rendering a decision is the more reasoned, more rational and more mature decision.  President Obama was probably seething, but controlling his actions and dealing with the general in private before taking measures is consistent with the proper way military people do business.  There was no doubt in my mind, nor in the General's, that his career was finished at the point these comments got out.  The White House in this case was nothing more than the woodshed.  But the proper procedures, consistent not only with the dignity of the general but more importantly the dignity of the President, needed to be followed.

Obama's actions in this situation were correct, his choice of a predecessor well-considered and executed, and the nation and military can move on now.  It was well done.

If Obama had any class he'd turn in his resignation too. At least the General has a good excuse. He's been fighting wars for 9 years straight and only been with his wife for a a total of 30 days over that time period.

[sirs]

I'm going to have to side with Miss Henny on this one.  McChrystal is a far superior gent and man than Obama, but Obama is his CnC.  McCrystal is to either abide by his commanders decisions, or request a transfer, or resign if he truely doesn't support them.  Criticising the CnC, while still in charge, undermines both morale and objectives

I fully support and would believe McChrsytal's assessment and criticisms of Obama, Biden, etc.  But he needed to vent those words in another venue/format, outside of his roll as head of military operations, in Afghanistan.

Sirs, I think you hit the nail exactly on the head.

Well, obviously you must have the hots for Miss Henny then       

[Henny]

I think this is REALLY simple. McChrystal overstepped big time. NO Commander in Chief should take it. And I don't care who the Commander in Chief is - Bush, Obama, or other. There are also bigger ramifications of the kind of attitude that McChrystal displayed other than wounded "dignity" - there is the morale of the troops and the attitude of the soldiers out there doing their jobs. These things do trickle down.

once again obama's instincts are wrong. He should have left the general in place. his poll numbers will go further down. he's an idiot.

Now that's interesting - what IS more important here: Obama's poll numbers or the good of the mission?

to him his poll numbers. you have to remember he always does the opposite of what he should do. his dropping poll numbers are just the result of another bad decision. The general really didn't do anything wrong. tell me, what did he say that was so wrong? The mission is most important, that is why he should have left the general in place!

Here's the thing - bad attitudes are contagious. In the history of this country, there have been plenty of times where the military brass has not agreed with or even liked their Commanders-in-Chief, BUT when they start venting publicly, their entire team will feel it.

Let's look at it on a smaller scale. You work for a business - any business - and your immediate manager goes on and on about how the CEO of the company is wrong, doesn't have the right strategy, doesn't know what he's doing. Said manager's employees WILL be affected by that attitude. It causes bad morale. Bad morale results in poorer work.

Bring it back to Afghanistan. Bad morale could potentially result in sloppy work, and in Afghanistan that means potential death for young soldiers.

And there is the simple fundamental issue: Obama IS Commander in Chief. And I will state on record again, I don't care which president is in office, it doesn't matter if I like or agree with a certain president, this situation was absolutely intolerable for any CiC. McChrystal spouted off his big mouth without think, spoke ill about his boss to the media, to the American public and the world, and he deserved whatever he got.

[Henny]

I'm going to have to side with Miss Henny on this one.  McChrystal is a far superior gent and man than Obama, but Obama is his CnC.  McCrystal is to either abide by his commanders decisions, or request a transfer, or resign if he truely doesn't support them.  Criticising the CnC, while still in charge, undermines both morale and objectives

I fully support and would believe McChrsytal's assessment and criticisms of Obama, Biden, etc.  But he needed to vent those words in another venue/format, outside of his roll as head of military operations, in Afghanistan.

you just have the hots for henny. That's OK.

Funny, Kramer. Sirs has never been shy to respectfully disagree with me on anything before; I don't know why he would start now.

[Stray Pup]

Barring an Introductions forum I'll go ahead an introduce myself on the debate that led me to DebateGate.

Hi.  I'm Stray Pup:  Stray Pooch's son.  I'm 22, work at a hotel, if I had to choose a party I'd say Republican, although I don't necessarily bow to every policy the party puts forth. In other words I have a mind of my own.

Regarding this debate, I agree with my father word for word.  I realize this is a dangerous precedent to set, but it seems fairly straightforward to me.  This is not a debate where we need to be concerned about who is the "better man", whose side is more valid or anything like that. 

This is simple "word of law".  The man was a military official, it was his duty to uphold these customs and instead he completely ignored them.  I'm not without sympathy for him, I'm certainly not a fan of Obama, but still he is (whether we like it or not) the Commander-In-Chief and must be shown the proper respect.

FYI:  My dad has little room to talk.  Remember when that MP busted you for having the "Stupid Is As Clinton Does" Bumper Sticker, lol ?

[sirs]

Welcome Pup Master

[Stray Pooch]

Barring an Introductions forum I'll go ahead an introduce myself on the debate that led me to DebateGate.

Hi.  I'm Stray Pup:  Stray Pooch's son.  I'm 22, work at a hotel, if I had to choose a party I'd say Republican, although I don't necessarily bow to every policy the party puts forth. In other words I have a mind of my own.

Regarding this debate, I agree with my father word for word.  I realize this is a dangerous precedent to set, but it seems fairly straightforward to me.  This is not a debate where we need to be concerned about who is the "better man", whose side is more valid or anything like that. 

This is simple "word of law".  The man was a military official, it was his duty to uphold these customs and instead he completely ignored them.  I'm not without sympathy for him, I'm certainly not a fan of Obama, but still he is (whether we like it or not) the Commander-In-Chief and must be shown the proper respect.

FYI:  My dad has little room to talk.  Remember when that MP busted you for having the "Stupid Is As Clinton Does" Bumper Sticker, lol ?

That must have been some other father . . .

Welcome to the fray!

[Stray Pooch]

I'm going to have to side with Miss Henny on this one.  McChrystal is a far superior gent and man than Obama, but Obama is his CnC.  McCrystal is to either abide by his commanders decisions, or request a transfer, or resign if he truely doesn't support them.  Criticising the CnC, while still in charge, undermines both morale and objectives

I fully support and would believe McChrsytal's assessment and criticisms of Obama, Biden, etc.  But he needed to vent those words in another venue/format, outside of his roll as head of military operations, in Afghanistan.

Sirs, I think you hit the nail exactly on the head.

Well, obviously you must have the hots for Miss Henny then       

Well, geez, who WOULDN'T? 

[Stray Pup]

I'm going to have to side with Miss Henny on this one.  McChrystal is a far superior gent and man than Obama, but Obama is his CnC.  McCrystal is to either abide by his commanders decisions, or request a transfer, or resign if he truely doesn't support them.  Criticising the CnC, while still in charge, undermines both morale and objectives

I fully support and would believe McChrsytal's assessment and criticisms of Obama, Biden, etc.  But he needed to vent those words in another venue/format, outside of his roll as head of military operations, in Afghanistan.

Sirs, I think you hit the nail exactly on the head.

Well, obviously you must have the hots for Miss Henny then       

Well, geez, who WOULDN'T? 

So... mom knows you're on here, RIGHT? 

[Stray Pooch]

So... mom knows you're on here, RIGHT? 

Don't make me whack your nose with a newspaper, Pup! 

[Stray Pup]

So... mom knows you're on here, RIGHT? 

Don't make me whack your nose with a newspaper, Pup! 

Lol.  We're off to a promising start already.  Don't worry, we're protected by M.A.D. when it comes to telling secrets, .

[Stray Pooch]

So... mom knows you're on here, RIGHT? 

Don't make me whack your nose with a newspaper, Pup! 

Lol.  We're off to a promising start already.  Don't worry, we're protected by M.A.D. when it comes to telling secrets, .

Ooh, cold war reference.  Must be an army brat - lol!