KKK shoots and kills

[fatman]

The opposition to Prop 8 went wrong in several ways in CA, and the blame can be spread around quite evenly, even to the opponents of it and their choice in ads.  Be that as it may, it was heartening to see that the youth vote was in opposition to Prop 8, by a margin of (roughly) 2:1.  That enforces my belief that we will see equal rights, but it will take time, and probably a Supreme Court decision.  Constitutional Amendments can be repealed, it's even happened at the Federal level, so I don't hold a lot of stock in that.  Basically, I think that we (the gay community) need to sit back and take a moderate approach, and allow the effects of time and public favor roll in our direction.  That some people don't "get" the need for equal rights isn't surprising, most of the people that I know that are against gay marriage aren't religious in any sense of the word, but it's an ingrained prejudice rooted in what was once an enforced societal control.  It will take time to change that, and I think that we need to be patient.

An aside to sirs:  the point that XO made regarding the Florida law was the point that I was trying to make, and why I'm beginning to see the pro's of arguing in support of "gay marriage".  As you know, I'd support an alternative that supports civil unions with equal rights, but the laws in both FL and AZ (from what I understand) ban anything that gives anything close to equal rights re: marriage to same sex couples.  That makes it harder for me personally to compromise and kind of pushes me into taking a hard line position that I personally don't like taking.

[sirs]

And I thoroughly respect your POV and position, Fat, albeit with a disagreement disclaimer.  I was listening to an anti-8 supporter, pretty much argueing with a radio host (Larry Elder, who incidentally also voted against prop 8 ), going off on this Civil Rights tangent, when it isn't at all.  It's a moral tangent, an/or a cultural tangent, though I understand the tact in trying to claim it a civil rights issue. 

When Larry asked him what he'd want to tell the listeners who were in support of prop 8, he largely echoed your comments, Fat.  Then Larry simply asked if he still got all the equal rights he was just claiming to want, in a Domestic Partnership, under California Law, and he conceded, well...yea.

That summed it up pretty well for me

[BT]

That makes it harder for me personally to compromise and kind of pushes me into taking a hard line position that I personally don't like taking.

I don't understand why lawmakers overreach their mandate.

[richpo64]

This might be a better choice. Good thing Barry put down the pipe or he might be singing, " I was gunna run for president .... 

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=305vRNoofr8[/youtube]

[Xavier_Onassis]

Being as I am not gay, I don't care much whether the state approves a Civil Union which has all the elements of a marriage, ot they just approve Lesbian and gay marriages. The opposition favors neither, and many, if not most, would favor bringing back the anti-sodomy, anti-cohabitation laws under which Abraham Lincoln and his roomie could have been jailed for sharing a bed.
Amendment 2 here in Florida was, I understand, heavily funded by the Republican National Committee. I personally got three mailings from the pro-amendment people and only one from those who were against it. The justification for the RNC spending so much on it was to get out the vote, especially in favor of the Diaz Balart brothers (Fidel's first wife's nephews, really) and Ileana Ros-Lehtinan, another Cuban. They managed to hold onto their seats, the Diaz-Balarts with a huge smear campaiugn against Raul Martinez, the mayor of Hialeah.

I STILL fail to see why anyone heterosexual could possibly believe that a officially recognizing gay couples would change their own marriages in any way.

[sirs]

Call it whatever you want.  Civil Unions, Domestic Partnership, narriage, just don't call it marriage.  I STLL fail to see why this compromise has no traction with the rabid anti-8 contingent, though I do have my assumptions

[Xavier_Onassis]

How does calling it "marriage" make it more unacceptable?

Many marriages are not performed by a religious institution, and that does not seem to make Christian or Jewish weddings any less sacred to those who chose that path.

[sirs]

How does calling it "marriage" make it more unacceptable?

Because marriage is between a man and a woman.  You want something between a man and a man or a woman and a woman, simply call it something else

Again, you and your side demonstrate zip effort to compromise on this cultural & moral issue, which presents this whole arguement, not so much of about trying to supposedly facilitate equal rights, (that domestic partnerships & civil unions already can do), but to mandate an acceptance of what many consider an immoral lifestyle choice, with the attachment of marriage to the union.

Your true colors are unfortunately showing there, Xo

[BT]

The state simply needs to get out of the marriage business. Period.

[Plane]

The opposition to Prop 8 went wrong in several ways in CA, and the blame can be spread around quite evenly, even to the opponents of it and their choice in ads.  Be that as it may, it was heartening to see that the youth vote was in opposition to Prop 8, by a margin of (roughly) 2:1.  That enforces my belief that we will see equal rights, but it will take time, and probably a Supreme Court decision.  Constitutional Amendments can be repealed, it's even happened at the Federal level, so I don't hold a lot of stock in that.  Basically, I think that we (the gay community) need to sit back and take a moderate approach, and allow the effects of time and public favor roll in our direction.  That some people don't "get" the need for equal rights isn't surprising, most of the people that I know that are against gay marriage aren't religious in any sense of the word, but it's an ingrained prejudice rooted in what was once an enforced societal control.  It will take time to change that, and I think that we need to be patient.

An aside to sirs:  the point that XO made regarding the Florida law was the point that I was trying to make, and why I'm beginning to see the pro's of arguing in support of "gay marriage".  As you know, I'd support an alternative that supports civil unions with equal rights, but the laws in both FL and AZ (from what I understand) ban anything that gives anything close to equal rights re: marriage to same sex couples.  That makes it harder for me personally to compromise and kind of pushes me into taking a hard line position that I personally don't like taking.

I don't like you r strategy , mostly because it might work.

I would much rather see violent protest and lawsuits , use the courts to fight the people , make the struggle an institution itself.

The origional goal might just get lost in the shuffle.

[Knutey]

I don't like you r strategy , mostly because it might work.

I would much rather see violent protest and lawsuits , use the courts to fight the people , make the struggle an institution itself.

The origional goal might just get lost in the shuffle.
[/quote]

Sure let the straights beat up and kill the Gays like usual- Right , Plane?

[BT]

Sure let the straights beat up and kill the Gays like usual- Right , Plane?

Seems to people spoke at the ballot box, and some people seem to be having a hard time with the results.

[hnumpah]

Seems to people spoke at the ballot box, and some people seem to be having a hard time with the results.

It happens. See the US Civil War.

[BT]

It happens. See the US Civil War.

Of course it does. See the last 8 years.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Again, you and your side demonstrate zip effort to compromise on this cultural & moral issue, which presents this whole arguement, not so much of about trying to supposedly facilitate equal rights, (that domestic partnerships & civil unions already can do), but to mandate an acceptance of what many consider an immoral lifestyle choice, with the attachment of marriage to the union.

Your true colors are unfortunately showing there, Xo

====================================
I am proud that my true colors involve equal treatment for everyone, regardless of the antiquated religious bigotry of people who want to force inequality on others.

The government has no business enforcing morality in sexual matters between consenting adults. No one is trying to make the churches marry anyone, after all.

The state does have an obligation to provide marriages. As I said, I am all for calling it civil unions or whatever to assuage the stupid religious bigots, but the passage of Amendment 2 in FL shows that said ignoramuses want no rights at all for gays and lesbians. Civil Rights should not be subject to a vote, anyway. It might make sense to some to prevent morons from voting, and requiring an IQ test, but no one has advocated that.

The rightwing is just being hateful here.