Religious freedom

[sirs]

Why should parents have to put up with a teacher in a public school teaching their child a religion they might not believe in? .......

Wo H.  Where did that question come from?  Students are indoctrinated about the religion of mother earth and global warming all the time.  Many are indoctrinated about how "taxing the rich" is a good thing to help the poor and the children with bigger and more elaborate government programs all the time.  Yet, I don't recall anyone here claiming that teachers should be allowed to teach their students in a public school that they should become Christian, or Hindu, or whatever.  Where'd you get that idea anyway?  My question was specific to allowing students to pray when they want & where they want, to gather together like minded students if they want to discuss their religion, for a teacher or student, on their own time, like lunch, leading a bible study perhaps, open to anyone that WANTS to come (read not forced)

Notice the common denominator.....those that WANT to, and by no means, forced to

[Xavier_Onassis]

If you forbid a religious practice in a place or a circumstance are you not making " law respecting an establishment of religion" just as congress is forbidden to do?\

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Yeah sure.

If I forbid someone from building a scaffold to "bury the dead in the sky", on my front lawn, a la Cheyenne religious practice on my front lawn, I am not violating any law. Nor is the City of Malibu Beach violating a law to forbid me from having rotting corpses on the same scaffold.

To ban all religious ceremonies and trappings is the only way to be neutral.

[hnumpah]

Notice the common denominator.....those that WANT to, and by no means, forced to

Sure. I saw how that worked when I was in school. We had a girl whose family was atheist, and who did not participate in the morning prayer or the pledge of allegiance to the flag. Sure, she was allowed not to participate, and sat quietly while everyone else went about bowing their heads, then standing for the pledge. She was ostracized and whispered about by the rest of the class, and spent her free time alone and without friends.

Schools are for teaching children what they need to get along in the world. Religion should be taught at home or in the church. That way you can be sure your child is taught according to your own beliefs.

[Amianthus]

She was ostracized and whispered about by the rest of the class, and spent her free time alone and without friends.

I know religious kids that spent "free time alone and without friends" - nature of the beast. Cliques gang up on individuals who refuse to submit to everything they demand. Has happened since before we evolved to our current form; it has been observed in many other species.

[sirs]

She was ostracized and whispered about by the rest of the class, and spent her free time alone and without friends.

I know religious kids that spent "free time alone and without friends" - nature of the beast. Cliques gang up on individuals who refuse to submit to everything they demand. Has happened since before we evolved to our current form; it has been observed in many other species.

Precisely.  What we have here is nothing to do with the notion of teachers trying to turn kids into Christians on the Public dollar, counter the Establishment clause to the 1st amendment, but everything to do with the PC induced "we can't offend anyone" dren. 

Strange, how I'm offended everytime I hear how a student led Bible study is prevented from meeting on their own time, between classes.  Strange how Christians are now largely ostracized, and must embrace the diversity of intolerance on school grounds.  Cliques are as common to school life as pop quizes.  The only difference here is the idea that someone exercising their 1st amendment rights to discuss & practice their own religion, might offend others.  So, best we offend the Christians, or any other like-minded group, that would like to come together and simply discuss their religion, possibly even....*gasp*....pray

[hnumpah]

What we have here is nothing to do with the notion of teachers trying to turn kids into Christians on the Public dollar...

Bullshit. Who do you think led the prayers, the Bible readings, and the pledge?

If a bunch of kids wants to get together and go to a teacher or other school official and set up a Bible study or prayer meeting at school, in private, on their own time, I don't have any problem with that. My problem is with the adults taking it on themselves to set it up, and 'inviting' everyone to join in.

'Diversity of intolerance'? What the fuck are you talking about? Nah, nevermind.

[Plane]

If you forbid a religious practice in a place or a circumstance are you not making " law respecting an establishment of religion" just as congress is forbidden to do?\

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Yeah sure.

If I forbid someone from building a scaffold to "bury the dead in the sky", on my front lawn, a la Cheyenne religious practice on my front lawn, I am not violating any law. Nor is the City of Malibu Beach violating a law to forbid me from having rotting corpses on the same scaffold.

To ban all religious ceremonies and trappings is the only way to be neutral.

Nurality may not always be the best choice.

I don't want to argue against your right to choose what religous events occur on your own land , or what the City government might choose to allow in the city. Priviate persons and city governments are not Congress.
The first admendment clearly prohibits Congress from establishment or religion and also prohibits Congress from hindering the free exercise there of.

What is the justifacation for forbidding other levels of government , and other types of government from Religious involvement?

[sirs]

What we have here is nothing to do with the notion of teachers trying to turn kids into Christians on the Public dollar...

Bullshit. Who do you think led the prayers, the Bible readings, and the pledge?

And who was mandated by the government, or even the school for that matter, to listen, learn, and believe??  This might shock you H, but I was in school way back when (having just turned 40something), I recited the pledge, and at NO time did I believe I was in Sunday School, listening to sermons, or having to acknowledge my Christianity.  At no time was I being made to act or be a Christian.  I was learning math, english, history, science, etc, without any attempt either direct or indirect to apply Christianity to those subjects.

No, what you have here is, with the cover of supposed seperation of Church & State, and teachers enforcing their religion on their captive audience, is political correctness running amuck, and how dare we might offend someone for actually hearing the word God, or *gasp* watching others pray.  Oh, the horror

My problem is with the adults taking it on themselves to set it up, and 'inviting' everyone to join in.

How you made my point so well.  Thanks.  Oh, and the "celebrating diversity of intolerance" is simply the push to suppress Christianity, or any other religion for that matter, within the Public arena, because it dares to offend those that don't believe, or makes them feel "uncomfortable"  Others might even be speaking about them, behind their backs.  egads

[hnumpah]

And who was mandated by the government, or even the school for that matter, to listen, learn...

What choice does a kid have when they are forced to sit in the classroom while this is going on? They may not have to believe, but they should not feel pressured by their teachers or other students to have to participate.

And I'm fifty-something - the prayers and Bible readings were still going on when I was in school, with the latter generally over the intercom system. Hard to get away from it when there's a loudspeaker on every corner and the principal is on.

I don't give a rat's ass what religion anyone practices, or whether they pray in public or not. I doubt you'd be so smug about it if it were Mohammed or Mustafa reading the Quran in class to your kids, and leading prayers to Allah.

[sirs]

And who was mandated by the government, or even the school for that matter, to listen, learn...

What choice does a kid have when they are forced to sit in the classroom while this is going on? They may not have to believe, but they should not feel pressured by their teachers or other students to have to participate.

Choice is kid can choose NOT to pledge anything.  Choice is kid can choose not to participate in any prayer.  Point being no one is FORCING them to do anything or believe anything.  Or do you wish to show us examples of public school tests & quizes (outside of actual theology classes of course) that included answers specifically including God, Christ, or scripture reading.  I can tell you right up front, I NEVER had any test in Public School that required my writing down God or Jesus, to validate what my belief system was, or needed to be

And I'm fifty-something - the prayers and Bible readings were still going on when I was in school, with the latter generally over the intercom system. Hard to get away from it when there's a loudspeaker on every corner and the principal is on.

Yea, AND?  As I said, I lived it too.  At NO TIME was there ANY effort to make ANYONE believe ANYTHING outside of what 2+2 was

I don't give a rat's ass what religion anyone practices, or whether they pray in public or not. I doubt you'd be so smug about it if it were Mohammed or Mustafa reading the Quran in class to your kids, and leading prayers to Allah.

If I were living in Syria, I most certainly would expect such.  Here, I live in America, where the Constitution is SUPPOSED to give us freedom of religion.  Difference being, there you'd be mandated/required to pray, to read, and to believe.  Not the case in America.  Here, we simply have a vocal minority going apesnot over being subjected to simply hearing the word Jesus, or seeing someone actually pray, while in Public School.  And heaven forbid, daring to put up a manger scene.  That's riot causing action

[Stray Pooch]

I know of no posters in any school advocating a gay lifestyle, by the way.

You don't visit many schools, I take it.  Try hanging out in pretty much any Massachusetts High School.  I'm not making that accusation up.  I've seen what organizations like the Gay-Straight Alliance and the so-called "Human Rights Squad" posted with my own eyes.  I remember the first one I saw at Ayer High School (or it may have been North Middlesex Regional - my kids attended different ones because Massachusetts - God Bless 'em - has School Choice).  It was about a famous Jazz singer (whose name is right on the tip of my aging brain but simply refuses to pop out - stupid fifty!) who was a lesbian and how proud people should be to gay.  Yet in that same school system, my son's class was told to write an essay stating who their heros were.  They were specifically told they were not allowed to choose religious heros.  That's nonsense.

[sirs]

Yet in that same school system, my son's class was told to write an essay stating who their heros were.  They were specifically told they were not allowed to choose religious heros.  That's nonsense.

Good frickin gravy        It most certainly is, Pooch

[Plane]

I know of no posters in any school advocating a gay lifestyle, by the way.

You don't visit many schools, I take it.  Try hanging out in pretty much any Massachusetts High School.  I'm not making that accusation up.  I've seen what organizations like the Gay-Straight Alliance and the so-called "Human Rights Squad" posted with my own eyes.  I remember the first one I saw at Ayer High School (or it may have been North Middlesex Regional - my kids attended different ones because Massachusetts - God Bless 'em - has School Choice).  It was about a famous Jazz singer (whose name is right on the tip of my aging brain but simply refuses to pop out - stupid fifty!) who was a lesbian and how proud people should be to gay.  Yet in that same school system, my son's class was told to write an essay stating who their heros were.  They were specifically told they were not allowed to choose religious heros.  That's nonsense.

Would the Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King Jr. count as a religious hero?

[Stray Pooch]

[Would the Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King Jr. count as a religious hero?

The very question my son asked.  (This was rather courageous, too, because the teacher was a wonderful African-American lady he really loved.)  He was told that Dr. King was not a "religious figure" but just a figure who happened to be religious.  I can actually understand that.  It's kind of the same way I feel about Mitt.  But Dr, King was, in fact, the REVEREND Dr. King.   He started his work, like Christ, in the churches (though in Christ's case it was the synagogues.)  That differentiation aside, however, if my son wanted to say Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith or "My Sunday School teacher" what difference would it make?  The question was about religion - it was about who the kids looked to as examples.   This teacher, as I said, was a great teacher and very nice person, but she was as liberal as the day is long and couldn't see past her PC nose.

[BT]

Why should parents have to put up with a teacher in a public school teaching their child a religion they might not believe in? Why should a child of, say, Buddhist or Hindu or even (gasp!) atheist parents feel like some sort of outcast

I'm sorry , which amendment is it that says citizens must be sensitive to the feelings of others?

I know it isn't the first because that simply says there shall be no established religion as in the Chirch of England nor should the govt interfere with religious expression.