Nightmare

[domer]

Valor is the better part of discretion in this instance. The outcome in Iraq could be so portentous that we will be living under its shadow for the rest of the century. Thus, it is better to speak up -- again -- than to  contemplate disaster unchallenged.

We are in a fix, folks, created and exacerbated by the very president of the United States. The haven in the Middle East we had envisioned in our fear-stoked glee, me included, has turned into a black hole of ancient hatreds, collapsing on itself. And we are caught there, in two damning senses: our troops are in the middle of a foreign civil war, more virulent by the day, and our hopes for a pivot against the radical, violent elements in the Muslim world are turning out to be our nightmares. Vicious hatred and instability in Iraq has already destroyed our dreams of an influential democratic citadel being born in the lap of our enemies. The violence and instability could be -- has every indication of being -- combustible and contagious, posed to spread throughout the region. This would be the most acute aspect of our nightmare: a resurgent and radicalized heart-of-Islam inflamed against the US and the West, casting a long shadow down the century and poisoning the world we share.

As an interlude I again will point out that many questions have yet to be answered, indeed some have yet to be asked, for which, since they are forward-looking and predictive, are one part speculation and one part reliable analysis.

Try as we may at this holiday season to wrap this package securely, there will always be innumerable loose ends by its very nature. And we Americans accentuate the problem by hoping, in turns, in two general camps, that the problem "just go away," or on the flip-side of the coin, "we're gonna fight to the bitter end," whatever that may be.

Internal American politics forms this divide -- in a time we should be driving towards consensus and national strength through unity -- with Democratic-Republican fault lines extending back to the Sixties, with liberal-conservative chasms growing with every outrage and retrenchment. IF we have a chance to salvage Iraq, we will self-defeat it by our petty domestic politics, as evidenced quite clearly on thisboard.

[BT]

This:

IF we have a chance to salvage Iraq, we will self-defeat it by our petty domestic politics, as evidenced quite clearly on thisboard.

preceded by this:

We are in a fix, folks, created and exacerbated by the very president of the United States.

And you dare lecture on partisanship?

[Mucho]

You want a nightmare? I will give you a nightmare. It is becoming clearer & clearer that Bush is so obsessed with his failure in Iraq that he will never be able to admit it. He was given a "graceful" alternative by the guy that made him Pres and he even shit on that. It wont be long before the lunatic nukes Iraq. It will probly be Anwar province first and then Baghdad if even that does not work. He might get most of our troops out of Baghdad before so as to not further pissoff an already pissed of electorate. (Not that he really cares about THAT either) Then we will read from the RW Frootloops in here that not only was he right, bur he shoulda done it looong ago. And remember, you heard it first here first.

[domer]

I don't see a disconnect between those two statements. The touchstone we should use is the TRUTH. Try it.

[Mucho]

I don't see a disconnect between those two statements. The touchstone we should use is the TRUTH. Try it.

Dome, They havent tried that so far. Why should they start now?

[BT]

The touchstone we should use is the TRUTH. Try it.

When you are ready to offer suggestions let me know. All i see is handwringing and blame-gaming so far.

Commute Saddams sentence? What is this- the Stockholm syndrome? Since when is it our call to overturn the Iraqi courts. And what good comes of it? You really think the Shiites will have a Kumbaya moment with the very people that kept them down for decades?

[domer]

Consensus starts with the acknowledgement that truth is king. Further, objectively speaking, Bush mangled this whole issue horribly. Aside from its value as truth and the principles it inculcates to guide our behavior, it is clear beyond cavil that a significant part of the electorate cannot forgive Bush for his incompetence, and won't budge from that intransigence, which thwarts all efforts to unite, until, artfully and deftly, he acknowledges his screw-up, cleans the slate, and, with new nodes of influence, proceeds to salvage the fucking situation.

The Saddam idea is an example of thinking outside the box. While a remote antidote, its rational, conceivable way of easing tensions, which the Shi'ite statesmen among the Iraqis should consider.

[sirs]

Consensus starts with the acknowledgement that truth is king. Further, objectively speaking, Bush mangled this whole issue horribly. Aside from its value as truth and the principles it inculcates to guide our behavior, it is clear beyond cavil that a significant part of the electorate cannot forgive Bush for his incompetence, and won't budge from that intransigence, which thwarts all efforts to unite, until, artfully and deftly, he acknowledges his screw-up, cleans the slate, and, with new nodes of influence, proceeds to salvage the fucking situation.

So basically nothing can be accomplished until Bush does some form of major media mea culpa?  Is that all that's holding us back from victory in Iraq, Domer?

[domer]

Certainly not. It would only be the first step in a newly-conceived policy, imbued with the truth, that he would have to embrace and implement to LEAD (study the concept) us out of this nightmare.

[BT]

Aside from its value as truth and the principles it inculcates to guide our behavior, it is clear beyond cavil that a significant part of the electorate cannot forgive Bush for his incompetence, and won't budge from that intransigence, which thwarts all efforts to unite, until, artfully and deftly, he acknowledges his screw-up, cleans the slate, and, with new nodes of influence, proceeds to salvage the fucking situation.

The electorate spoke when they elected Dem majorities. And that dem majority has the tools to bring the Iraq saga to a premature end. Judging by the tone of your posts, i get the sense that you don't think they have the balls to do it. And on that,  i agree.

[sirs]

Certainly not. It would only be the first step in a newly-conceived policy, imbued with the truth, that he would have to embrace and implement to LEAD us out of this nightmare.

1st step?......so you are saying that Bush must "come clean" and claim he screwed up as a "1st step", to this newly conceived policy, right?

[domer]

A Congressional end to this war would not be an optimal resolution, the target we should be aiming at. For better or worse, Bush remains the commander-in-chief. The better way -- better than unilateral Congressional action -- is to persuade Bush to see all sides, and then to develop a policy he can LEAD the nation to follow, authentically -- not another instance of governing from the margins.

[BT]

A Congressional end to this war would not be an optimal resolution

Why not?

That's why they were elected.

 

[Lanya]

Should Congress simply cut off funds for the war, with all that entails, or should they simply impeach the president (with all that THAT entails) and replace him with someone who CAN lead?  If, as I gather you're saying, he can't lead and won't lead.   You're saying it devolves upon Congress to lead, right?   
If that is what you are saying, what's wrong with Bush? Is he incapacitated, incompetant, what?

Because I'm sure you aren't suggesting that the President do nothing just to make the Congress have to deal with his mess.  Are you?

[BT]

Neither Bush nor I believe that a premature withdrawal from Iraq is in the best interests of this country. So why would he do something he doesn't believe in?


However the dems made Iraq and immediate withdrawal the centerpiece of their campaign. so they think premature withdrawal is the best thing to do.

Apparently that was just some people talking.

Who in their right minds would expect dem politicians to be true to their campaign promises or have the courage of their convictions.

The simplest way to end the war is to withdraw authorization through the war powers act and set a date certain to end funding.

The whole world is watching!