Author Topic: "...grasping a quagmire from the jaws of victory"  (Read 1860 times)

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sirs

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"...grasping a quagmire from the jaws of victory"
« on: January 18, 2007, 03:55:59 PM »
This was such an intriguing concept, I though I'd give Domer center stage in explaining it

Taking Bush out of the equation, tell us how we were apparently "so close" to victory in Iraq.  Where & when did this take place?  What was the situation on the ground at the time we nearly had victory?

And if it's impossible to remove Bush from the equation, you can still demonstrate to us where we had gotten so close, before he mucked it up, right?

Oh, I almost forgot.  What is domer's definition of "victory"?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2007, 05:37:27 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: "...grasping a quagmire from the jaws of victory"
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2007, 03:05:04 AM »
Perhaps the predominat versions of "victory" are more elegantly portrayed in this toon

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: "...grasping a quagmire from the jaws of victory"
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2007, 01:19:59 PM »
So domer, would you mind providing us your articulate 2cents to this question?  This inquiring mind would like to know.  Perhaps others would as well.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2007, 01:39:20 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

domer

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Re: "...grasping a quagmire from the jaws of victory"
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2007, 01:42:02 PM »
Sirs, you echo, not think, and your whole tone is insulting. You pronounce "your" views as if there is some hidden, magical sense to them, which you guard like a virgin's honor, but in fact there is none, never has been and never will be.

"Grasping a quagmire from the jaws of victory" very openly refers to the time Saddam's government (and statue) fell. Had there been enough troops deployed to the theater, and the right kinds, and had an insurgency been anticipated, as it should have been, then there was a good chance that the sacking of the museum and the consequent sense of lawlessness would not have developed into guerilla warfare: the dissident opposition arming itself and going to ground in a death-struggle occasioned, as much as anything, by early administration botching of the dictates of the "reconciliation" they so desperately seek now.

Rather than dwell on that, try addressing these questions, which I pose in good faith from another thread: 

The way it appears to me, the politics in Iraq are headed for a resolution sympathetic to Shiite interests (in the worse case scenario, a frank Islamic Republic under al-Sadr) and hostile to Sunni interests, especially former Baathist interests. But in between, are there players in sufficient numbers capable of swinging the balance of power in the country to a more inclusive, reconciling model?

Perhaps th Kurds could act as brokers in this regard. But do they have any interest or capacity to do so? It would seem that their main interest is in protecting their own autonomous enclave, which they want to preserve through eventual independence or autonomy in a loose federation. Beyond the Kurds, are there any groups strategically situated to act as both a buffer and a catalyst for a more inclusive politics, that is without offering themselves as targets in their own right in the present civil war? Are the secularists numerous enough to offer ideas of resonating importance? (It would seem not.) How about Christians or other "exaggerated minority" groups? (Ditto.) What about "the believer but not the true believer" Muslims, both Sunni and Shiite, who might constitute that moderate core?

As to the latter, branching out beyond religious strictures, are the cultural bonds of religion too great to undergo a successful reconciliation? Indeed, do tribal loyalties supplant religion as the organizing principle for many? Indeed, what are the ideas in Iraq vying for preeminence as the "foundational or core principles" around which everything can organize?

Any comments? These are very basic concerns. The whole enterprise of reconciliation, which has to proceed if Iraq is to end this long night of the soul short of catastrophe, depends on these answers, or answers to ones of similar ilk.

Plane

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Re: "...grasping a quagmire from the jaws of victory"
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2007, 01:48:27 PM »
Were there Iraqis courageous enough to act out their ethnic and racial hatreds during Saddams regime ?

sirs

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Re: "...grasping a quagmire from the jaws of victory"
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2007, 01:54:12 PM »
....snip....

Your articulance, despite the overt condescending arrogance, is appreciated.  Especially in the form of "practicing what you preach", specifically the query I posed, while you sit there and type "Rather than dwell on that, try addressing these questions, which I pose in good faith from another thread".  Pot, meet Kettle
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

domer

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Re: "...grasping a quagmire from the jaws of victory"
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2007, 02:09:14 PM »
Bush's dream of a "reconciled Iraq," which is portrayed in the last panel at the top of the cartoon, depends entirely on the questions I've just posed, or ones similar. The prevailing wisdom, the great weight of authority, seems to believe, at least now, that Bush's dream simply cannot come to fruition in anywhere near the shape or timeframe Bush's fantasies expect, if ever. If there were a time this vision could have come to pass, which very many doubt, then that time surely has passed with the hardening of positions. Nonetheless, I think it is important to ponder, which I do with the (introductory) set of questions I pose.

This view of Bush's vision is based on hard facts, not speculation. Juxtaposed, the Democrats' push for a staged withdrawal and an alternate, yet-to-be-defined strategy to accomplish our national goals in the region and the world are the rational, not the speculative alternative. You can decide to scrap the lemon that doesn't run right before you decide on the ride that's going to take you to your destination. And this is especially so when the jalopy is in great danger of veering off the road and crashing, with your family members in it, in or out of uniform.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: "...grasping a quagmire from the jaws of victory"
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2007, 11:37:22 PM »
Juniorbush will get his surge. If a surge will bring victory as this simplistic toon says, then he will get his victory. The Democrats will not prevent the surge, because they can't.

The asshole cartoonist apparently thinks that if the Mighty Surge works, then the Democrats have some way or some motive for sabotaging it.

Somehow, he thinks that the Democrats should be the only political party in history that should simply lay down and quit, even after the opposition has presided over the lamest eight years in recent history. What a major dolt.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."