Author Topic: "Being Gay is Immoral" says Top General  (Read 4491 times)

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The_Professor

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"Being Gay is Immoral" says Top General
« on: March 13, 2007, 11:00:37 AM »
Pace says U.S. not well served by policy that 'says it is OK to be immoral'
The Associated Press
Updated: 9:29 a.m. ET March 13, 2007
WASHINGTON - A gay advocacy group Tuesday demanded an apology from the Pentagon’s top general for calling homosexuality immoral.

In a newspaper interview Monday, Marine Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, had likened homosexuality to adultery and said the military should not condone it by allowing gays to serve openly in the armed forces.

“General Pace’s comments are outrageous, insensitive and disrespectful to the 65,000 lesbian and gay troops now serving in our armed forces,” the advocacy group Servicemembers Legal Defense Network said in a statement on its Web site.

The group has represented some of the thousands dismissed from the military for their sexual orientation.

Pace made his remarks in an interview Monday with the Chicago Tribune. He was responding to a question about the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy that allows gays and lesbians to serve if they keep their sexual orientation private and don’t engage in homosexual acts.

Pace said he supports the policy, which became law in 1994 and prohibits commanders from asking about a person’s sexual orientation.

“I believe homosexual acts between two individuals are immoral and that we should not condone immoral acts,” Pace was quoted as saying in the newspaper interview. “I do not believe the United States is well served by a policy that says it is OK to be immoral in any way.”


Based on upbringing
Pace, a native of Brooklyn, N.Y., and a 1967 graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy, said he based his views on his upbringing.

“As an individual, I would not want (acceptance of gay behavior) to be our policy, just like I would not want it to be our policy that if we were to find out that so-and-so was sleeping with somebody else’s wife, that we would just look the other way, which we do not. We prosecute that kind of immoral behavior,” he said.

The newspaper said Pace did not address concerns raised by a 2005 government audit that showed some 10,000 troops, including more than 50 specialists in Arabic, have been discharged because of the policy.

“Don’t ask, don’t tell” was passed by Congress in 1993 after a firestorm of debate in which advocates argued that allowing homosexuals to serve openly would hurt troop morale and recruitment and undermine the cohesion of combat units.

Rep. Martin Meehan, D-Mass., has introduced legislation to change the ban. Meehan introduced a similar bill in 2005 that eventually attracted 122 co-sponsors, including Republican Chris Shays of Connecticut and Independent Bernard Sanders of Vermont.

John Shalikashvili, the retired Army general who was Joint Chiefs chairman when the policy was adopted, said in January that he has changed his mind on the issue since meeting with gay servicemen.

“These conversations showed me just how much the military has changed, and that gays and lesbians can be accepted by their peers,” Shalikashvili wrote in a newspaper opinion piece.

Comfortable with gays?
He also cited a new Zogby poll, commissioned by the Michael D. Palm Center at the University of California at Santa Barbara, of 545 U.S. troops who served in Iraq and Afghanistan. Three quarters said they were comfortable around gay men and lesbians; 37 percent opposed allowing gays to serve openly; 26 percent said they should be allowed, and 37 percent were unsure or neutral.

Of those who said they were certain that a member of their unit was gay or lesbian, two-thirds did not believe it hurt morale, according to the poll published in December.

Shalikashvili said he expected fierce debate over gays in the military this year as Congress considers President Bush’s call for expanding the size of the Army, which is stretched thin by wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.


URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17590518/


Plane

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Re: "Being Gay is Immoral" says Top General
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2007, 07:03:35 PM »
Of those who said they were certain that a member of their unit was gay or lesbian, two-thirds did not believe it hurt morale, according to the poll published in December.
[][][][][][]][][][][][][][][][][]


Only a third of our Armed service would loose morale?

kimba1

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Re: "Being Gay is Immoral" says Top General
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2007, 07:15:12 PM »
might be too late.
the one discharged from the past are usually the most able of service men.
relaxing the rules now .
might not be enough to strengthen our numbers
the damage maybe too much to get gays into the military in any satisfactory number.
ironic thing is nobody ever said gays make bad soldiers
but now they`re finally talkes of letting them in.

Plane

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Re: "Being Gay is Immoral" says Top General
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2007, 07:30:47 PM »
might be too late.
the one discharged from the past are usually the most able of service men.
relaxing the rules now .
might not be enough to strengthen our numbers
the damage maybe too much to get gays into the military in any satisfactory number.
ironic thing is nobody ever said gays make bad soldiers
but now they`re finally talkes of letting them in.



If we got every single one of them back , and lost the third that would feel hurt with them , would this come out even?

kimba1

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Re: "Being Gay is Immoral" says Top General
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2007, 08:32:03 PM »
I don`t think any of the 3rd would admit saying feeling hurt.
in terms of strength and ability.
it`s actually unknown if it`s even
pretty much every single data about gays say their better soldiers than hetero
note not a single gay bash has ever been done by a single unarmed person
usually in packs or armed with something.


Michael Tee

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Re: "Being Gay is Immoral" says Top General
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2007, 09:42:34 PM »
It's hilarious.  These guys make a lifetime career out of maiming and killing their fellow human beings and decide that being gay is immoral.  Why am I not more impressed by the gravity of their moral judgments? 

Lanya

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Re: "Being Gay is Immoral" says Top General
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2007, 09:51:02 PM »
 Is having pre-marital sex immoral?  Is any extra-marital sex immoral? 
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Plane

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Re: "Being Gay is Immoral" says Top General
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2007, 09:53:44 PM »
Is having pre-marital sex immoral?  Is any extra-marital sex immoral? 

Yes
Yes

And the Mlitary can kick you out for either of these more easily than for homosexuality.

Stray Pooch

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Re: "Being Gay is Immoral" says Top General
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2007, 11:17:24 PM »
The interesting thing about this story is how it puts first amendment and personal freedom issues against military standards of conduct.

General Pace made a comment with which I agree.  I believe homosexuality is immoral.  Gay groiups who call for an apology are insisting that the General change his opinion.  That's nonsense.  He has every right to hold that opinion and to express it.

On the other hand, General Pace runs the risk of violating AR 600-2 (if my memory serves and the reg number hasn't changed) which contains the Army Standards of Conduct.  Soldiers are generally prohibitted from expressing political opinions while in uniform or while identifying themselves as military.  This is why soldiers can be disciplined for attending political rallies in uniform - and why those low-lifes in the Super Bowl commercial should be prosecuted.  General Pace does have, by virtue of his position, the authority to make policy statements.  In that regard, he probably hasn't broken any rules - since his statements accurately reflect (or at least do not contradict) Army policy. 

But it is likely that homosexuality will soon be legal (and therefore effectively irrelevent) in the military.  Once that happens,  such comments as General Pace made would be subject to the same restrictions as any other political speech.  Of course, a soldier can voice a disagreement with a policy, but he can't do so in public in such a manner as would make it appear he was endorsing an idea in an official capacity.  Clearly, a statement like the one General Pace made after lifting the ban would make him subject to dismissal. 

Those are the extremes.  Right now it is perfectly acceptable to condemn homosexual activity.  After lifting the ban, it would not be.  But there is a gray area - and this is significant for General Pace given the strong possibility that Hillary may be elected next year and has flatly pledged to lift the gay ban.  A soldier today who expressed the idea that blacks or women or other minorities were inferior would be considered unfit to lead.  Part of each soldiers evaluation is whether or not they support equal opportunity.  Obviously, it is difficult to fairly lead or evaluate someone who you consider inferior by nature.  There are, of course, some people who can hold a prejudice but not allow it to affect their leadership.  But they are very few and far between.  How can General Pace be considered fit to command if he condemns the activities of what would be a legal minority?  Should Army policy change, General Pace might well be professional enough to set aside his personal views and lead with honor.  But even if that is the case, many who would be called to serve below him might justly feel that they could not trust him.  Anytime someone who is gay got into trouble, the issue of Pace's comments would come into play.  (Is Pace discipling this soldier because of an infraction or a lifestyle?)  This compromises Pace's ability to lead.

In the end I admire Pace's forthrightness, but I question whether his comments were wise.  I doubt if he has broken any rules, but he may have ended his effective career.
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Plane

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Re: "Being Gay is Immoral" says Top General
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2007, 12:13:50 AM »
  Well summed up Stray Pooch.


  I suppose then, that General Pace will be a part of the 33% reduction in strength that will experience when the  Armed force integrates homosexuality fully.

Lanya

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Re: "Being Gay is Immoral" says Top General
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2007, 12:25:17 AM »
Is having pre-marital sex immoral?  Is any extra-marital sex immoral? 

Yes
Yes

And the Mlitary can kick you out for either of these more easily than for homosexuality.


I wonder if there are more people in the military having extramarital sex, straight people I mean,  than gay.  And if that's the case, why didn't he mention the straight fornicators and how they're offensive and immoral?  Surely are more numerous, no? 
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Plane

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Re: "Being Gay is Immoral" says Top General
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2007, 12:27:30 AM »
Is having pre-marital sex immoral?  Is any extra-marital sex immoral? 

Yes
Yes

And the Mlitary can kick you out for either of these more easily than for homosexuality.


I wonder if there are more people in the military having extramarital sex, straight people I mean,  than gay.  And if that's the case, why didn't he mention the straight fornicators and how they're offensive and immoral?  Surely are more numerous, no? 


Of course they are , but he does not have to ask and they do not have to tell.

Stray Pooch

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Re: "Being Gay is Immoral" says Top General
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2007, 01:22:34 AM »
Adultery is a crime in the military.  But "adulterers" are not an identifiable group.  Nobody goes around lobbying to make adulterous marriage (oxymoron?) legal or to give adulterers the right to adopt children.  Adulterers do not claim to be "born" adulterous, or that there is a genetic component to adultery.  People do not identify themselves as "adulterers" like gay people identify themselves as gay.  Adulterers do not claim to be a specially protected class.

Homosexuality is considered a lifestyle.  By most of its practioners, it is considered an integral part of who they are.  Adulterers do not make such claims.  A married person may have a one-time affair or a one night stand when they are drunk or something and then never return to the activity.  The same, in fact, may be said for a gay or lesbian fling.  An otherwise straight person might get drunk or curious and experiment.  Most of those people would not call themselves gay. 

The difference between the immoral ACTS of an adulterer and the immoral ACTS of a homosexual are negligible.  But the choice to identify oneself as gay and actively seek gay relationships is, in itself, immoral.    Of course, in fairness, there are some who life an "adulterous" lifestyle in the same way.   But as a general rule "adultery" is an act - not a lifestyle.

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Plane

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Re: "Being Gay is Immoral" says Top General
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2007, 01:38:51 AM »
But "adulterers" are not an identifiable group.  Nobody goes around lobbying to make adulterous marriage (oxymoron?) legal or to give adulterers the right to adopt children.  .





   Could this be the next big thing?

Stray Pooch

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Re: "Being Gay is Immoral" says Top General
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2007, 01:41:36 AM »
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070314/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/military_gays

No apology from Gen. Pace for gay stance

By PAULINE JELINEK, Associated Press Writer

 
WASHINGTON - The        Pentagon's top general said Tuesday he should not have voiced his personal view that homosexuality is immoral and should have just stated his support for the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy in an interview that has drawn criticism from lawmakers and gay-rights groups.

The written statement by Marine Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, did not apologize for his stance on homosexuality. In a newspaper interview Monday, Pace likened homosexual acts to adultery and said the military should not condone it by allowing gays to serve openly in the armed forces.

After a flurry of condemnation Tuesday, Pace issued a statement acknowledging that the Defense Department's "don't ask, don't tell" policy on gays is a sensitive subject and said: "I should have focused more on my support of the policy and less on my personal moral views."

The military lets gay men and lesbians serve if they keep their sexual orientation private. Commanders may not ask, and service members may not tell. More than 10,000 troops, including more than 50 specialists in Arabic, have been discharged since        President Clinton signed it into law in 1994.

In an interview with the Pentagon Channel, the military's in-house television station, Defense Secretary Robert Gates declined to answer a question on his opinion of the policy but made what seemed to be a mild rebuke of Pace.

"Now look, you know I think personal opinion really doesn't have a place here," Gates said. "What's important is that we have a law, a statute that governs 'don't ask, don't tell.'"

He added: "That's the policy of this department, and it's my responsibility to execute that policy as effectively as we can. As long as the law is what it is, that's what we'll do."

In an interview Monday with the Chicago Tribune, Pace was asked about the policy. He said he supports it, that it allows gays to serve and that it does not make "a judgment about individual acts."

He also said: "I believe that homosexual acts between individuals are immoral and that we should not condone immoral acts. I do not believe that the armed forces of the United States are well served by saying through our policies that it's OK to be immoral in any way."

Lawmakers of both parties criticized Pace's remarks.

"We need the most talented people; we need the language skills. We need patriotic Americans who exist across the board in our population," said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (news, bio, voting record), D-Calif. "We don't need moral judgment from the chairman of the Joint Chiefs."

Sen. John Warner (news, bio, voting record), R-Va., one of Congress' most respected authorities on military matters and a former Navy secretary, said, "I respectfully but strongly disagree with the chairman's view that homosexuality is immoral."

Also chastising Pace was Rep. Martin Meehan, D-Mass., who has introduced legislation repealing the policy.

"Our military is struggling to find and keep the soldiers we need," Meehan said of the strain caused by fighting two wars. "We are turning away good troops to enforce a costly policy of discrimination."

In a sign of how politically sensitive the issue remains, Democratic leaders have yet to schedule debate on Meehan's bill.

White House spokesman Tony Snow said        President Bush "has always said that the most important thing is that we ought not to prejudge one another. But when it comes to government policy, it's been in place for a long time and we will continue to execute it according to the letter of the law."

Presidential contender Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record), R-Ariz., who spoke to reporters outside a fundraiser in Beverly Hills, Calif., said Pace "should be given a chance to explain himself." Asked for his own view on homosexuality in the military, McCain said he believes the "don't ask, don't tell" policy is "successful and should be maintained."

Pace, a native of New York City, and a 1967 graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy, said in the interview that he based his views on his upbringing.

"As an individual, I would not want (acceptance of gay behavior) to be our policy, just like I would not want it to be our policy that if we were to find out that so-and-so was sleeping with somebody else's wife, that we would just look the other way, which we do not. We prosecute that kind of immoral behavior," he said, according to the audio and a transcript released by his staff.

Two gay advocacy groups strongly condemned Pace's remarks.

"General Pace's comments are outrageous, insensitive and disrespectful to the 65,000 lesbian and gay troops now serving in our armed forces," said the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, which has represented some of the thousands dismissed from the military for their sexual orientation.

"Their sexual orientation has nothing to do with their capability to serve in the U.S. military," said Luis Vizcaino, spokesman for the gay rights group Human Rights Campaign.

"Don't ask, don't tell" was passed by Congress after a firestorm of debate in which it was argued that allowing homosexuals to serve openly would hurt troop morale and recruitment and undermine the cohesion of combat units
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