"An American Tragedy"

[gipper]

As a literary classic, Theodore Dreiser's novel (above-named) writs the fates of ordinary people in compelling terms along the lines of age-old, traditional tragedy. Their flaws operate in the circumscribed arena in which they live. How much more range -- and destructive potential -- do tragic flaws have in other men, great men, whose range of reach expands beyond the horizon and back? "Otherwise good men" is a key phrase. The LBJ of the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act was, tragically, the same LBJ of, "Hey, hey, LBJ. How many kids have you killed today?" He was caught by the intermesh of history, its circumstance and a personal history he couldn't rise above, in my view. I draw a close parallel in this regard to G.W. Bush.

[Lanya]

What benificent civil rights or other meaures did GW Bush author and push for that you view as having the same effect on daily lives of millions of citizens of this country? 

[Plane]

 In what way does George Bush share in the defecincies of LBJ?

I don't get the simularity.

[Plane]

What beneficent civil rights or other measures did GW Bush author and push for that you view as having the same effect on daily lives of millions of citizens of this country? 

LBJ managed to cooperate with Congessiona Republicans who were pushing a Civil Rights bill.

Has a recent congress produced such an opportunity?

I hope that President Bush will be remembered for his attempts to rescue Social Security at the time that it collapses.

I hope that NCLB starts working better , there has been no better program put forward and we desperately need something.

Tax cuts are endangered , and it is now accepted that tax cuts produced increased employment and increased tax receipts , we will all miss this when it is gone.

LBJ didn't have to fight opponents that were so intrangedent.

[Lanya]

Oh my, what a ferocious fight it has been on the President's part. For all of...January, February, March, April, May, June, July and part of August he's fought them tooth and nail.  And they've given into him time after time.   

What didn't he pass when his party held the majority status?   Abortion wasn't outlawed.  Social Security wasn't changed.   Puff the magic dragon, all hot air.

[The_Professor]

What beneficent civil rights or other measures did GW Bush author and push for that you view as having the same effect on daily lives of millions of citizens of this country? 

LBJ managed to cooperate with Congessiona Republicans who were pushing a Civil Rights bill.

Has a recent congress produced such an opportunity?

I hope that President Bush will be remembered for his attempts to rescue Social Security at the time that it collapses.

I hope that NCLB starts working better , there has been no better program put forward and we desperately need something.

Tax cuts are endangered , and it is now accepted that tax cuts produced increased employment and increased tax receipts , we will all miss this when it is gone.

LBJ didn't have to fight opponents that were so intrangedent.

Has President Bush helped Social Security? Perhaps I missed it.

[gipper]

The one thing I take away from this thread -- thus far -- is that Lanya again proves herself to be the unregenerate, partisan bitch of fable for her total, purposeful misreading of the heart of a magnanaimous thought, denying with her last ugly breath that there could be anything tragically noble about a man serving out his second term as president, this time with 52% of the vote. He is not the ogre of your dreams (or your forbidden desires): he is a man who rose to a great position at what proved to be a crucial time, was unmatched for it, tried manfully (within his limits) and failed miserably. Like Johnson. The Civil Rights Act etc. were just illustrations of goodness in the face of a far worse fuck-up, not by any means intended to be read (other than by a political hack of no intellectual distinction) as a judgment on GWB's character, the point of the comments (along with Johnson's).

[Michael Tee]

<<The Civil Rights Act etc. were just illustrations of goodness in the face of a far worse fuck-up . . . >>

JUST illustrations of goodness?  I certainly hope there weren't too many of those.  Seriously, domer, I thought the whole  point of your mentioning the CRA and VRA was to show that despite what you persist in calling the "fuck-up" of the Viet Nam War (Jane Fonda and many others called it what it was, not a mistake but a crime) there was a lot of good that came out of LBJ's administration.  Wherein lay what you termed the "tragedy."

<< . . . not by any means intended to be read (other than by a political hack of no intellectual distinction) as a judgment on GWB's character . . . >>

Oh please - - once you initiated the comparison between LBJ and Bush, how could anyone help comparing the positive accomplishments of the Johnson administration with the non-stop fuck-ups, unrelieved by any positive accomplishments whatsoever, of the Bush administration?  I'm not sure you appreciate the full significance of this clown - - the guy, already known as someone who lied to SEC investigators, with the help of a thoroughly corrupted Supreme Court, steals the election, "negligently permits" (this is the most favourable possible interpretation anyone could possibly put on his role in 9-11) the most devastating outside attack in history on U.S. soil, steals a second election, lies the country into a disastrous war, commits the most outrageous war crimes and atrocities, including torture and murder, since Viet Nam, publicly defends his right to torture, allows the City of New Orleans to fall into the ocean and still has about 16 1/2 months left in his term of office.  I wasn't going to mention wiretapping U.S. citizens without warrants, stem cells, Terry Schiavo, tax cuts for the rich, Alberto Gonzalez, "Bring It On," "Mission Accomplished," Jack Abramson and all the rest of it, but what the hell . . .

Usually when one speaks of tragedy, one has to have a tragic figure in mind, great in many respects but tragically flawed in one.  Whatever else he might be, Bush is NOT a tragic figure, any more than a turd at the bottom of a toilet bowl is a flawed work of art.  He's an all-too-typical southern or south-western American politician of the late 20th century of the Republican persuasion - - a figurehead for the very sinister forces which ultimately will do America in.

I guess you think Lanya earned the "unregenerate partisan bitch of fable" accolade because she punctured your high-flying little balloon, but it was a low blow nevertheless.  Why does a perfectly legitimate and politely voiced disagreement with what you said have to spark such a poisonous spray of venom?  But thanks for yet another example of what's wrong with today's Democrats - - Democrats like you don't even see the irony in the fact that you're using "unregenerate partisan" as the ultimate insult.  There is something afoot in your country that is far worse than "partisanship," my friend.

[The_Professor]

Oh my, what a ferocious fight it has been on the President's part. For all of...January, February, March, April, May, June, July and part of August he's fought them tooth and nail.  And they've given into him time after time.   

What didn't he pass when his party held the majority status?   Abortion wasn't outlawed.  Social Security wasn't changed.   Puff the magic dragon, all hot air.

I unfortunately concur with much of this. More progress on abortion should have been achieved. And, contrary to Plane' posting,
I see that President Bush has done nothing positive about either Social Security or Medicare; they both bleed heavily and he still steals out of the SS fund and places IOUs back (earlier Presidents did this, but still...). In fact, I see very little progress at all, other than his veto of fetal stem cell research.

[Michael Tee]

<<In fact, I see very little progress at all, other than his veto of fetal stem cell research.>>

That ain't progress, Professor, that's retrogression.

[The_Professor]

That's YOUR view, my Northern misguided friend.

Perhaps you don't get enough sun up there; the cold has partially frozen your brain....

[Michael Tee]

Nice theory, Professor, except right now it's about 86 degrees outside and the ice in my pool is all melted. 

[gipper]

The art of overkill -- Michael's forte -- is on full display in his previous post to me here. These wackos (much o the time), which clearly includes Lanya as well, have to be chastened or expurged before we enter a critical election phase. But as the lines are now drawn in this post, the segment of the "reality spectrum" appears as it should to the independent observer, the internecine Democratic agony over killing our own (Bush and his followers) or making peace for unity and progress's sake in the face of a palpable set of external threats.

[Plane]

Rush Limbaugh has mny times challenged his listeners to point to the monuments raised to honor the great moderates of history.


Being such a natural miuddle of the roader and middlefinder may be what hampers President Bush from makeing his name immortal but there also needs to be oppurtunity and press.


President Polk expanded our borders a lot during his administration , but his addition to our territory did not win for him as much accolade as one would suppose , he nearly doubbled our land and didn't make it to Rushmore. He was a hard workng President , but not a self promoter.

Preident Bush , if he has his way, will have freed moe people from bondage than Lincon , by a factor of six.

Still no biggie. He would not have done so much if not for Osama and his goad.

[Michael Tee]

domer, the only people who ought to be "expurged" from the Democratic Party prior to entering "a critical election phase" are you and your DLC ilk who stick your heads in the sand, firmly convinced that if you can label Bush as a moderate or middle of the roader, then your own attempts at compromise make you also a middle of the roader, just like Bush only more so, and that somehow this will entitle you to an electoral win.

This is the worst kind of head-in-the-sand thinking.  First of all, YOU ALREADY TRIED IT in 2004 and you failed.  You need to offer the electorate an alternative and not an echo.  Buying into the Bush gang's current rationale for staying in Iraq (Reasons.v3.0) ("We're just here to stabilize the situation long enough for them to form a stable self-governing society capable of maintaining its own security") is NOT offering any alternative.  "I've got a BETTER way of getting them to a stable self-governing society faster" is not an alternative because it's based on a false premise.  Worse still, the false premise that it's based on is the Republicans' false premise, not even your own.   Even worse, the promise itself is a lie, because everyone knows that NOBODY has a way, let alone a better way, to make these people agree on a stable self-governing society able to maintain its own security.  The people know that you're in a quagmire even if the Republicans and the Democrats like to pretend otherwise.

See, the public KNOWS that the reasons Bush gives for being in Iraq are a crock and a lie.  The first reasons were a crock and a lie, the second reasons were a crock and a lie, and the third (current) reasons are a crock and a lie.  So will the fourth, fifth and sixth reasons for being in Iraq be a crock and a lie.  And the sad thing is, the public KNOWS all this.  Knows it without being told.  Knows it because they had to figure it out for themselves.  So they are NOT going to vote for you if you are just shining them on with the same-ol' same-ol'.  The anti-war votes that helped put the Democrats into majority positions in the House and the Senate are feeling betrayed already.

Guys like you are the death-knell of the Party.  Lanya at least promises a new direction.  Whether she can pull it off or not is another story.  She herself, in this thread or another one, told BT what the problem was in terms of people with a motive and a need to vote Democratic, who nevertheless are likely to sit out yet another election.  The challenge is for her to get those people off their asses.  She at least can offer them something new, a new direction.  People like you wouldn't stand a hope in hell, because you stand for everything that's wrong with the Party and wrong with the system that ain't - - if you can have anything to do with it - - ain't gonna change anytime soon.