Author Topic: Opponent denies calling Clinton ugly  (Read 24979 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: Opponent denies calling Clinton ugly
« Reply #90 on: October 29, 2006, 09:36:56 PM »
<<They started using it ("states' rights") after the 2000 election. When the Supreme Court handed down a verdict they didn't like, all of sudden, Florida should have had the right to decide for itself. It's been used a few times since. Lanya has posted a number of articles using the term, as has Terra.>>

I remember that, but it's irrelevant to this discussion.  They weren't using it as a code word to attract racist voters, they were using it in a post-mortem legal analysis of the 5-4 partisan split in the Supreme Court as to whether irregularities in the Florida vote (which a wide majority of the judges agreed had occurred) should be rectified by the Florida state courts or by the Supreme Court itself.

 When the Supreme Court decided that it would "fix" the irregularities itself (by handing the election to Bush in a purely political decision) the Democratic legal analysis faulted the Court's conservative majority, in all other matters a staunch defender of states' rights, for departing from its own previously staked out legal position for partisan benefit.  "States' rights" in this context was not code word for holding back civil rights, it was a value-neutral description of the majority's former position, abandoned when abandoning it gave the electoral victory to Bush.

BT

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Re: Opponent denies calling Clinton ugly
« Reply #91 on: October 29, 2006, 09:42:44 PM »
Quote
"States' rights" in this context was not code word for holding back civil rights,

So are you saying one needs a decoder ring to determine the meaning of codewords like "states right"?  Is it only code for oppress the blacks when uttered by Republicans and always used in context of a loftier purpose when uttered by Dems?

Seems like a silly argument to me. How about we just agree that states rights is code for issues better handled at the local level and stop this racist nonsense here and now.





sirs

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Re: Opponent denies calling Clinton ugly
« Reply #92 on: October 29, 2006, 09:56:19 PM »
I gave a list with Reagan, Lott, Macacawitz, Thurmond, the Republican National Committee, with appropriate cites from magaines and other sources; how many guys does it take to make this a laundry list?  I never said I'd track down every single one.

Reagan was a racist??  Because he spoke at Bob Jones University?  THAT's your evidence?  The completely inane references of selected soundbites again, and your conclusion that Lott wasn't really apologetic??  Thurmond is about as close as you can get, though Byrd was the more racist of those 2, and he gets a pass from you.  Double standard alive and well, I see.  And the reason you're not going to pull out any other examples of this supposed laundry list of GOP racists is the simple fact you keep pulling out the same ones, as if that paints the rest of the party.  Maybe in that alternate reality you live in, where if Bush knew, and Bush lied us into war, does that work.  In this reality, we still require facts vs implied innuendo

My documented quote of Ken Mehlmann apologizing last year to the NAACP for the Southern Strategy means what?  He apologized for something that never happened?  He apologized to the NAACP for something that did not affect blacks?

It means 1 person apologized for any wrong doing that may have affected Blacks adversely

I never claimed the South was "completely" racist.  The switch from the Solid South to a Republican South after the adoption of the Southern Strategy (with the one exception of Jimmy Carter's victory, exlpainable by the fact that this was a Southern candidate) was fact enough for me.  Those racist Southerners who fought the Democratic Party's turn to racial equality sure as hell went somewhere when they left the Democratic Party, and I think the Republican successes and the disappearance of the Solid South explain exactly where they went.

See that?  Perfect example of what I'm talking about.  Complete hypothetical conjecture on your part, with then making said conclusion of this overt racism that still supposedly permeates the south.  No facts, just pure opinion

Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, Baghram Base, other desert bases, multiple renditions, secret prisons . . . nah, that's not widespread.  It's comical - - EVERY time a new allegation of torture crops up, it's another "isolated case" of "bad apples" for which no heads ever roll.  A few low-ranking scapegoats get to serve a few years in the slammer and this is evidence of massive top-down condemnation.  

And here again, another perfect example, pointing out where abuses have occured, AND WERE CONDEMNED, with those responsible being prosecuted, yet this is your "fact" of our government condoning when not advocating torture and abuse from the top down.  At least your consistent.  What is this now, strike 4?

None of which exists - - he lied.  Said there were WMD which constituted immediate mortal danger to the US and none were found.  Said that Saddam had not accounted to the U.N. for all his WMD, and Saddam had.  He lied.  Plain and simple.  How can you deny that?

Because the facts, and a plethora of conclusions by various Bi-partisan committees & investigations, that actually LOOKED at all the facts declared otherwise  That's how

That's why I also supplied you with plenty of facts.

Funny, we're still waiting.  You'll wake us when you present them vs your conclusions based on your perceptions of what is, is

I could keep on embarrassing you with your lies and ineptitude all day, sirs, but I don't have the time, unfortunately.  I'm going to do you a favour and call it a day.  

I'm afraid Tee, the only one you're embarrasing is yourself.  But at leastit's been entertaining.  Good time to stop, though I see that Ami, Bt, & Plane have been wiping up the rest of your dren.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Opponent denies calling Clinton ugly
« Reply #93 on: October 29, 2006, 10:44:13 PM »
<<Reagan was a racist??  Because he spoke at Bob Jones University? >>

Close, but no.  Because he authorized the Justice Department to back the racist university's appeal to have its fed funding restored notwithstanding its racist prohibitions on inter-racial dating.  Because he made states' rights the cornerstone of his campaign speech, which he launched from the very site where white racists had murdered three civil rights workers in the 1960s, sending a powerful coded messages to white racists that he had come to their home base to support what they supported.  The rest of your rant is not worth addressing, so I will be as brief as I can.   It's the same old shit repeated now for about the tenth time which is pure bullshit.  Trent Lott is a racist because he regretted publically on at least two occasions that the nation rejected Strom Thurmond as President as well as because of his association with the Conservative Citizens' Councils.  There is no defence for Byrd, but one racist relic in the Democratic Party does NOT equal half a dozen in the Republican.  The Republican National Committee published racist TV commercials in Tennessee.  Bob Dornan, Republican Congressman in California, denounced a radio-show critic as "a treasonous little Jew."  I don't have time for this.  I can't recall all the examples I gave previously, I am not going to republish everything I already posted.  You don't like it, too bad.

<<It means 1 person apologized for any wrong doing that may have affected Blacks adversely>>

Well, that "one person" was the representative of the RNC speaking in his official capacity to the NAACP.  So it means the RNC apologized, not "one person." 

<<Complete hypothetical conjecture on your part, with then making said conclusion of this overt racism that still supposedly permeates the south.  No facts, just pure opinion>>

An opinion based on facts and attempting to explain the facts is a theory.  You saw my theory.  You can call a theory pure opinion if you want, but that doesn't invalidate the theory.  You invalidate the theory by (1) showing facts which don't fit the theory or (2) offering an alternative theory which explains the facts better than the first one does.  You have done neither.  So my theory (not mine, actually, but the theory of a lot of people who study the situation) still stands.  Sorry.

<<another perfect example, pointing out where abuses have occured, AND WERE CONDEMNED, with those responsible being prosecuted, yet this is your "fact" of our government condoning when not advocating torture and abuse from the top down. >>

It is the mickey-mouse nature of the penalties, the fact that they are exclusively reserved for the lowest ranks and the fact that the tortures are still continuing (the President having refused to agree to any legal limitation of his power to torture, Cheney denying that waterboarding even constitutes torture) that all add up to the conclusion that torture is in fact condoned.
 
<<At least your consistent.  What is this now, strike 4?>>

Ball 4, actually.  I walk to first base.

<<Because the facts, and a plethora of conclusions by various Bi-partisan committees & investigations, that actually LOOKED at all the facts declared otherwise  That's how>>

Bullshit.  He engineered a whitewash and the Democrats went along with it because they also authorized the war on the basis of his lies and don't want to admit how easily they were fooled.

<<Funny, we're still waiting [for facts supporting my position]>>

You're not waiting for anything.  You're lying again.  Pretending that I haven't supplied you with any facts when you know God-damned well that I have.

<<I'm afraid Tee, the only one you're embarrasing is yourself.  But at leastit's been entertaining.  Good time to stop, though I see that Ami, Bt, & Plane have been wiping up the rest of your dren.>>

I was actually wiping the floor with Ami, and more or less holding my own with the other two, but I can see that this kind of trash talking must have some therapeutic value for you, so I won't really dispute it.  Shout it out, sirs.



« Last Edit: October 29, 2006, 10:48:35 PM by Michael Tee »

Amianthus

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Re: Opponent denies calling Clinton ugly
« Reply #94 on: October 29, 2006, 11:06:04 PM »
I was actually wiping the floor with Ami,

ROFLMAO

Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Opponent denies calling Clinton ugly
« Reply #95 on: October 29, 2006, 11:27:29 PM »
<<So are you saying one needs a decoder ring to determine the meaning of codewords like "states right"?  Is it only code for oppress the blacks when uttered by Republicans and always used in context of a loftier purpose when uttered by Dems?>>

I don't know where the silly talk about "decoder rings" comes from, but any word's meaning depends on context, obviously.  "I got my ring on the weekend!"  (He proposed to me and gave me an engagement ring.)  "Why don't you give me a ring next week sometime?" (Call me.)  "Does one need a decoder ring to . . . ?>>  (decoder ring)

Of course if Democratic politicians began making speeches in the Deep South explaining how from now on they were going to defend states' rights just like they did in the 30s and 40s and 50s, this would be a coded reference to helping the cause of white racists.

In the context of the debate over the Supreme Court decision, the Democrats used "states' rights" as a description of a legal position formerly held by the conservatives on the court and abandoned in this one particular case for obviously partisan reasons.

Your insistence that the phrase be allowed only one and the same context for both Democrats and Republicans is every bit as silly as suggesting that if a Republican says "ring" in the context of an engagement ring, no Democrat can use "ring" in the context of a telephone call.  The context of a word or phrase has always and will always affect or contribute to its meaning in that context, and no amount of enforced political correctness will ever change that.

<<Seems like a silly argument to me. How about we just agree that states rights is code for issues better handled at the local level and stop this racist nonsense here and now.>>

States' rights was historically the coded rallying cry chosen by the Republican Party to implement its Southern Strategy and was the key topic of Reagan's 1980 campaign kickoff speech delivered in Philadelphia, Mississippi, the site of the murder of the three civil rights workers in the 1960s.  As much as Republicans want to whitewash that history, it is fact and the speech was fact and the reference in the speech to states' rights was fact.  None of that will go away.

You may argue till you're blue in the face that "states' rights" was just a term of legal significance, addressed to garner the votes of all the southerners who had keen interest in the niceties of Constitutional law, but you will never convince me and you will never convince anyone who has any real knowledge of the situation.  At this point in time you'll have the added burden of explaining, if the Republican Party wasn't chasing white racist votes with "states' rights" then what exactly was Ken Mehlman (in his official capacity as head of the RNC) apologizing for and why, when the media played this as an apology for the Southern Strategy, was no correction forthcoming from the RNC?

BT

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Re: Opponent denies calling Clinton ugly
« Reply #96 on: October 30, 2006, 12:11:34 AM »
Mikey,

I don't need to argue until I am blue in the face, The ascendency of the GOP in the South has more to do with population increases in the suburbs than it will ever have to do with some safe haven offered to unrepentant democrats through some nebulous southern strategy.

The growth of the GOP in the southland is directly related to the influx of suburbanites from the rust belt, the relocation of corporate headquarters for outfits like UPS who previously were in CT and the vast opportunities available to entrepreneurs looking for a better life for themselves and their children in a previously agrarian sector of the country. The cost of living is lower here. The climate is better. The future is now.

All these yankees couldn't be racists moving here in hopes that blacks will be kept in their place. A good many of these transplants are black themselves.

It took close to a century for Georgia to elect a GOP governor. It took longer than that for the state legislature to go majority GOP.

And this demographic change is not just happening in the donut around Atlanta. It is happening around other cities like Macon and Savannah, Augusta and Columbus. It is happening near any city that has a regional university and an educated workforce.

Look at the demographics around Charlotte and Birmingham and Jacksonville and Chattanooga and tell me the GOP is made up of unreconstructed racists.

You couldn't be more wrong.



sirs

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Re: Opponent denies calling Clinton ugly
« Reply #97 on: October 30, 2006, 02:26:03 AM »
Close, but no.  Because he authorized the Justice Department to back the racist university's appeal to have its fed funding restored notwithstanding its racist prohibitions on inter-racial dating. 

How a University conducts itself privately is a matter of Fed funding?  Perhaps if they were segregating by race in the classroom, you MIGHT have a leg to stand on.  Were they?

Because he made states' rights the cornerstone of his campaign speech,

You see, the problem I have here, is that as a conservative, the support of "States' rights", means precisely that, the support of states' rights.  It has nothing to do with code words, and everything to do with minimizing how the Fed is to act over that of the states.  That's Conservatism 101, and has zilch to do with racism

The rest of your rant is not worth addressing, so I will be as brief as I can.   It's the same old shit repeated now for about the tenth time which is pure bullshit. 

This would be the art of projection, which you have indeed taken to the zenith level

Trent Lott is a racist because he regretted publically on at least two occasions that the nation rejected Strom Thurmond as President as well as because of his association with the Conservative Citizens' Councils. 

Under desperation in the dictionary is likely examples of the above paragraph

There is no defence for Byrd, but one racist relic in the Democratic Party does NOT equal half a dozen in the Republican. 

And to date, we only have a regurgitation of 4, none of which can be construed as real racists, and that supposedly equals half a dozen in the GOP

The Republican National Committee published racist TV commercials in Tennessee. 

How were they "racist"?

Bob Dornan, Republican Congressman in California, denounced a radio-show critic as "a treasonous little Jew."  I don't have time for this.  I can't recall all the examples I gave previously, I am not going to republish everything I already posted.  You don't like it, too bad.

You really want to bring up selected soundbites of all the Dems who have made boneheaded racially insensitive remarks??  And that makes them all racist, right?  That is the criteria you keep perptuating

An opinion based on facts and attempting to explain the facts is a theory.  You saw my theory.  You can call a theory pure opinion if you want, but that doesn't invalidate the theory.  You invalidate the theory by (1) showing facts which don't fit the theory or (2) offering an alternative theory which explains the facts better than the first one does.  

Or 3) demonstrate for all to see that it is nothing more than speculation, which it most certainly was

It is the mickey-mouse nature of the penalties, the fact that they are exclusively reserved for the lowest ranks and the fact that the tortures are still continuing (the President having refused to agree to any legal limitation of his power to torture, Cheney denying that waterboarding even constitutes torture) that all add up to the conclusion that torture is in fact condoned.
 
Aside from that stickly little fact that such abuses have consistently been condemned, not just by Bush, Cheney & Rumsfeld, but by most of the Conservative right, as well.  Not to mention the fact that those who've committed such abuses keep getting prosecuted.  Man how condoning can one get?

He engineered a whitewash and the Democrats went along with it because they also authorized the war on the basis of his lies and don't want to admit how easily they were fooled.

LOL, so now the moron is a genious, who was able to convince the vast majority of the Dems to play along?  You're bent, Tee

You're not waiting for anything.  You're lying again.  Pretending that I haven't supplied you with any facts when you know God-damned well that I have.

If it were only so

I was actually wiping the floor with Ami, and more or less holding my own with the other two, but I can see that this kind of trash talking must have some therapeutic value for you, so I won't really dispute it.

Yes, indeed.  I do get quite the theraputic laugh from it
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Opponent denies calling Clinton ugly
« Reply #98 on: October 30, 2006, 02:36:43 AM »
<<You couldn't be more wrong. >>

Well it's possible I'm wrong.  I just don't know all that much about the demographic shift you're talking about, other than in the most general terms.  I'm prepared to concede the possibility that demographics have diluted racism but I'd be amazed if substantial pockets weren't still left in the affluent suburbs, and small towns.  The Southern Strategy may be growing less important as white racism diminishes in force, but I figure there's a lot of it still around in the South because of the vicious hate crimes that crop up from time to time and also the confidence that a guy like Macacawitz obviously felt, making the kind of cracks he did and thinking he could get away with it.  Similarly the RNC's Tennessee ads - - why make'em if there weren't any racists whose votes could be locked in?  Even Trent Lott's gaffe - - sure, the guy miscalculated, but he couldn't be out by 100%.  The anti-racist forces were probably stronger than he realized, but that doesn't mean there weren't any racists at all in his Republican base, just maybe not as many or as strong as he thought they'd be.

Michael Tee

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Re: Opponent denies calling Clinton ugly
« Reply #99 on: October 30, 2006, 03:07:40 AM »
<<How a University conducts itself privately is a matter of Fed funding?  Perhaps if they were segregating by race in the classroom, you MIGHT have a leg to stand on.  Were they?>>

sirs, when they tell students there's a rule against inter-racial dating they are imposing their racist values on a student body with power of expulsion.  The Federal government does not consider this private any more than the right to keep blacks out completely is private.  If they invite a student in, they can't expect him to check his civil rights at the door AND keep their Federal funding.

<<You see, the problem I have here, is that as a conservative, the support of "States' rights", means precisely that, the support of states' rights.  It has nothing to do with code words, and everything to do with minimizing how the Fed is to act over that of the states.  That's Conservatism 101, and has zilch to do with racism>>

Well that is just pure bullshit.  Maybe for a few constitutional law buffs debating the finer points of federalism, states' rights would be a genuine legal and philosophical issue, but the issue was generally considered settled in 1865 by the Union victory over the Confederacy.  Since then, the issue was pretty dormant until the civil rights crisis, when it was revived by southern lawyers who realized that "separate but equal" was killed by Brown v. Topeka.  At that point, a lot of speeches were made about states' rights to audiences of tobacco-chewin' farmers and general KKK types who don't really show much of a scholarly interest in the finer points of constitutional law.  Now if you want to believe that Reagan was eager to display his concern for constitutional law to the scholars of the subject, why you just go ahead and believe that.  Personally, I will continue to believe the generally accepted theory (generally accepted outside the lunatic world of the far right, that is) that "states' rights" as preached by Reagan Republicans was in fact a code word for racial segregation.

<<Under desperation in the dictionary is likely examples of the above paragraph [claiming that Trent Lott is a racist becasue he regrets that Strom Thurmond wasn't elected President and because of his association with the Conservative Citizens Councils.]>>

When you want to argue the point, let me know.  Calling it desperate is a measure of your own vacuity, rather than any intelligent contradiction of what I said.  You probably don't even know what the Concerned Citizens Councils are, so I don't think you're even fit to comment on the subject at this point.

<<How were they [RNC ads] "racist"?>>

As I've stated, they unnaturally darkened the skin of the Afro-American candidate they opposed, showed a blonde bimbo party girl asking him to call her, and played jungle drums behind the image of the guy while much more dignified music played behind the white guy they favoured.

<<You really want to bring up selected soundbites of all the Dems who have made boneheaded racially insensitive remarks?? >>

Not if you go back to before the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act.  That was the old Democratic Party, the one that held all the racists who migrated to the Republican Party due to the Southern Strategy.

<< And that makes them all racist, right? >>

No, you can't tell that they're racist by what they SAY.  That would be wrong.  You have to read their minds.  See their aura.  Hire a psychic. 

<< That is the criteria you keep perptuating>>

That's because I'm a crazy liberal.  Who else would identify racists by what they say about blacks?  Certainly not a conservative.  They don't need to listen to what any Republican says about racial issues, they just KNOW that he can't be a racist if he's a Republican.

<<Or 3) demonstrate for all to see that it is nothing more than speculation, which it most certainly was>>

All theories start off as speculation.  You can only prove it's speculation by disproving the theory, which you can only do by showing that it fails to explain or account for certain facts.  Which you haven't done.  You're too lazy.  It's easy to SAY "that's just speculation."  But because you say it's speculation means nothing.  Prove it's wrong.

<<Aside from that stickly little fact that such abuses have consistently been condemned, not just by Bush, Cheney & Rumsfeld, but by most of the Conservative right, as well. >>

That's just not true.  Cheney just refused to condemn waterboarding this past week.  Bush insisted on retaining the right to torture.  "Condemned" means short jail terms for low-ranking personnel and no penalties for the commanding officers on whose watch it happened.  Most of the conservatives I know, yourself and plane included spend a hell of a lot more time minimizing torture and ridiculing its opponents than you do condemning torture and your leaders actually endorse it by what they do, if not by what they say.

<< Not to mention the fact that those who've committed such abuses keep getting prosecuted.  Man how condoning can one get?>>

Heads would really roll if Bush and Cheney were serious about condemning it.  They put on a charade for idiots and idiots fall for the charade.  Nobody with an ounce of common sense would believe that Bush is agaisnt torture on the basis of what he says.  It's still going on.

<<LOL, so now the moron is a genious, who was able to convince the vast majority of the Dems to play along?>> 

Well the moron isn't left alone at the top, he has Cheney and Rumsfeld and others who can fix things behind the scenes.  I would never say it was Bush personally who engineered the whitewash, but in any event since both parties had a vested interest in the whitewash, it wouldn't have been all that difficult to engineer.

The rest of your post - - juvenile bullshit that I have no interest in responding to.  But thanks for the effort.







BT

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Re: Opponent denies calling Clinton ugly
« Reply #100 on: October 30, 2006, 03:31:44 AM »
Quote
Well it's possible I'm wrong.  I just don't know all that much about the demographic shift you're talking about, other than in the most general terms.  I'm prepared to concede the possibility that demographics have diluted racism but I'd be amazed if substantial pockets weren't still left in the affluent suburbs, and small towns.

Now we are making headway. And would those pockets of racism exist outside the South? And is it possible that party affiliation has little to do with it? When MLK was shot Atlanta did not burn. You ever wonder why?


sirs

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Re: Opponent denies calling Clinton ugly
« Reply #101 on: October 30, 2006, 03:36:28 AM »
The rest of your post - - juvenile bullshit that I have no interest in responding to.  But thanks for the effort.

Remember that term "projection"  Your latest rant was more of the same.  Best get some sleep
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Amianthus

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Re: Opponent denies calling Clinton ugly
« Reply #102 on: October 30, 2006, 06:47:10 AM »
Well it's possible I'm wrong.  I just don't know all that much about the demographic shift you're talking about, other than in the most general terms.

Considering I've lived in the south for many years (and just recently moved back to the southeast), in many other areas of the US, and a number of foreign countries, I would say that I probably have more experience with comparing racism in the US southeast than you do.

And, as I've claimed several times in the past, while I've found racism everywhere I've gone, there is less racism in the southeast than there is in the northeast, upper midwest, and western states.

Yes, New York City residents are more racist than those living in Charlotte, NC. Or even the rural areas of the southeast.

And I will stand by that statement.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

sirs

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Re: Opponent denies calling Clinton ugly
« Reply #103 on: October 30, 2006, 11:27:53 AM »
Considering I've lived in the south for many years (and just recently moved back to the southeast), in many other areas of the US, and a number of foreign countries, I would say that I probably have more experience with comparing racism in the US southeast than you do.  And, as I've claimed several times in the past, while I've found racism everywhere I've gone, there is less racism in the southeast than there is in the northeast, upper midwest, and western states.  Yes, New York City residents are more racist than those living in Charlotte, NC. Or even the rural areas of the southeast.  And I will stand by that statement.

During my time living in South Carolina, while also visiting locales in both North Carolina & Georgia, I witnessed very little, if any, of this supposedly overt racism that permeates the south.  Heck, I've seen & heard more racism from the Dem side of the aisle in NY, DC, and New Orleans, than I ever saw when living in the South
« Last Edit: October 30, 2006, 11:43:52 AM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Opponent denies calling Clinton ugly
« Reply #104 on: October 30, 2006, 01:43:06 PM »
The important question to me is why is Racism shrinking at all?


When the Northern states were running an occupation of the South with well armed soldiers , racism did not reduce one whit.

On the contrary Racism won out and carried on for years .

Too many years.


Along comes Martin Luther King Jr. and he is neither satisfied with the very gradual progress nor approveing of violent protest .


What do you know , racism starts to loose ground.


The persuaseive power of a few heros , a few martyers, a lot of paitient and well behaved people and suddenly the violent supression of fairness gets embarrasing.