Author Topic: Mikey, a couple months ago you said the Euro was OK  (Read 6096 times)

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Kramer

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Re: Mikey, a couple months ago you said the Euro was OK
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2010, 03:52:52 PM »
I defend my positions quite well, It's just that your mind is incapable of logical reasoning.


explain to me what is logical about the religion of liberalism? Don't tell me it just takes a lot of faith to make it work.

Michael Tee

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Re: Mikey, a couple months ago you said the Euro was OK
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2010, 06:07:07 PM »
<<explain to me what is logical about the religion of liberalism? Don't tell me it just takes a lot of faith to make it work.>>

Liberalism isn't a "religion" or even an overall political program.  On an issue-by-issue basis, there is a liberal view and a conservative view.  One person can be loosely considered "more liberal" than another, depending on how many different issues he or she would see from a liberal POV.  Or depending on how far his liberalism goes when applied to any one issue.

I can't write a textbook on this, but on any one issue, I'd probably be able to define the liberal perspective and defend it.  On some issues, like capital punishment, I'm actually opposed to the liberal view.  But on most other issues, I'm probably a liberal.  A lot of liberals start from Jeremy Bentham's criterion of supporting the solution that promises "the greatest good for the greatest number," which usually involves some form of redistribution of wealth, and conservatives start from the premise of preserving the status quo, which means leaving the wealth exactly where it happens to be right now, thank you very much.  I basically believe in equality and I don't see why Peter should have more than Paul.  A little bit more, OK, but a whole lot more?  Fuck dat.  I like a level playing field for everyone.  I like to see everyone happy.

Plane

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Re: Mikey, a couple months ago you said the Euro was OK
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2010, 06:14:11 PM »
<<explain to me what is logical about the religion of liberalism? Don't tell me it just takes a lot of faith to make it work.>>

Liberalism isn't a "religion" or even an overall political program.  On an issue-by-issue basis, there is a liberal view and a conservative view.  One person can be loosely considered "more liberal" than another, depending on how many different issues he or she would see from a liberal POV.  Or depending on how far his liberalism goes when applied to any one issue.

I can't write a textbook on this, but on any one issue, I'd probably be able to define the liberal perspective and defend it.  On some issues, like capital punishment, I'm actually opposed to the liberal view.  But on most other issues, I'm probably a liberal.  A lot of liberals start from Jeremy Bentham's criterion of supporting the solution that promises "the greatest good for the greatest number," which usually involves some form of redistribution of wealth, and conservatives start from the premise of preserving the status quo, which means leaving the wealth exactly where it happens to be right now, thank you very much.  I basically believe in equality and I don't see why Peter should have more than Paul.  A little bit more, OK, but a whole lot more?  Fuck dat.  I like a level playing field for everyone.  I like to see everyone happy.
well spoken


Except for the explanation of the conservative POV , which is that welth should go wherre it is welcome and well treated , earned in other words.

Michael Tee

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Re: Mikey, a couple months ago you said the Euro was OK
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2010, 07:35:53 PM »
<<well spoken>>

Thank you.

<<Except for the explanation of the conservative POV , which is that welth should go wherre it is welcome and well treated , earned in other words.>>

I don't see that "welcome and well-treated" equates to "earned."    I for one would certainly welcome wealth and treat it well, regardless of how it came to me, and whether I had earned it or not.  Ask any lottery winner.

We were taught in high school that the root of "conservative" is the verb "conserve," to keep as it is, which would entail the preservation of the status quo and resisting any changes thereto.  It was for that reason that our former Conservative Party changed its name to Progressive Conservative in order to avoid the impression that it was resistant to all change.  It was under a PC government, for example, that the Canadian ban on Playboy Magazine was finally lifted in the late 1950s.  Now THAT'S progress.

Kramer

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Re: Mikey, a couple months ago you said the Euro was OK
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2010, 08:33:44 PM »
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6541DW20100605

The euro zone is facing a period of zero growth if not recession, and the United States is heading for financial trouble, U.S. economist Nouriel Roubini was quoted as saying on Saturday.

There was a risk of renewed recession in Europe, Roubini said in an interview with Swiss daily Tages-Anzeiger.

"There is that risk, at least for the euro zone. Growth will fall toward zero. Even if that is perhaps not a real recession, it will feel like one. Greece was just the tip of the iceberg," he said.

"And the Americans too will run into the wall at some point if the carry on the way they are," he said in the interview published in German.

Roubini, known as Dr. Doom and best known for predicting the U.S. housing crisis, said there was a risk of a second financial crisis, with countries becoming insolvent and being forced out of the euro, and banks collapsing.

Countries such as Spain and Greece were now under pressure to cut spending and raise taxes to retain access to the capital markets, even though they had no growth to speak of.

If governments implement austerity measures too soon they risk snuffing out demand and recovery, but delays could provoke a catastrophe with high interest burdens and inflation.

"You're damned if you save and you're damned if you don't," he said.

Roubini said it was "possible to square this circle" if governments committed to a credible medium-term plan to restore their budgets.

But such policies, which carry the risk of a deflationary recession, must be compensated for with a loose pan-European monetary policy to stimulate demand.

Any resulting further decline in the euro would make European exports more competitive and allow Germany to raise wages and purchasing power at home to stimulate exports from other euro zone countries, he said.

Roubini said that a Japanese-style period of deflation, stagnation and high unemployment was a much greater risk to Europe for the next two or three years than inflation.



http://www.upi.com/Top_News/International/2010/06/05/Russia-says-euro-must-be-stabilized/UPI-47431275767862/

MESEBERG, Germany, June 5 (UPI) -- Russia's president says Europe needs to stabilize the euro or face the possibility of a financial crisis
worse than the 2008 recession.

Dmitry Medvedev made the remarks in Meseberg, Germany, RIA Novosti reported Saturday.

"This is important for the European zone," Medvedev said, "and for its partners, such as Russia, and for the world financial system because if one pulls out leg in a form of euro from the global financial system, I am afraid consequences will be worse than the crisis in 2008."

The euro has sunk to its lowest rate against the dollar in four years amid fears a European debt crisis could slow economic growth in the region, RIA Novosti said.

"We really have very serious trade relations with the EU (and) many of our people keep their savings in euro," Medvedev said. "We are not indifferent to the European invention's destiny."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/budget/7806064/Euro-will-be-dead-in-five-years.html


Euro 'will be dead in five years'
The euro will have broken up before the end of this Parliamentary term, according to the bulk of economists (people much smarter than XO) taking part in a wide-ranging economic survey for The Sunday Telegraph.

The single currency is in its death throes and may not survive in its current membership for a week, let alone the next five years, according to a selection of responses to the survey – the first major wide-ranging litmus test of economic opinion in the City since the election. The findings underline suspicions that the new Chancellor, George Osborne, will have to firefight a full-blown crisis in Britain's biggest trading partner in his first years in office.

Of the 25 leading City economists who took part in the Telegraph survey, 12 predicted that the euro would not survive in its current form this Parliamentary term, compared with eight who suspected it would. Five declared themselves undecided. The finding is only one of a number of remarkable conclusions, including that:

• The economy will grow by well over a percentage point less next year than the Budget predicted in March.

• The Government will borrow almost £10bn less next year than the Treasury previously forecast, despite this weaker growth.

• Just as many economists think the Bank of England will not raise rates until 2012 or later as think it will lift borrowing costs this year.

But the conclusion on the euro is perhaps the most remarkable finding. A year ago or less, few within the City would have confidently predicted the currency's demise. But the travails of Greece, Spain and Portugal in recent weeks, plus German Chancellor Angela Merkel's acknowledgement that the currency is facing an "existential crisis", have radically shifted opinion.

Two of the eight experts who predicted that the currency would survive said it would do so only at the cost of seeing at least one of its members default on its sovereign debt. Andrew Lilico, chief economist at think tank Policy Exchange, said there was "nearly zero chance" of the euro surviving with its current membership, adding: "Greece will certainly default on its debts, and it is an open question whether Greece will experience some form of revolution or coup – I'd put the likelihood of that over the next five years as around one in four."

Douglas McWilliams of the Centre for Economics and Business Research said the single currency "may not even survive the next week", while David Blanchflower, professor at Dartmouth College and former Bank of England policymaker, added: "The political implications [of euro disintegration] are likely to be far-reaching – Germans are opposed to paying for others and may well quit."

Four of the economists said that despite the wider suspicion that Greece or some of the weaker economies may be forced out of the currency, the most likely country to leave would be Germany.

Peter Warburton of consultancy Economic Perspectives said: "Possibly Germany will leave. Possibly other central and eastern European countries – plus Denmark – will have joined. Possibly, there will be a multi-tier membership of the EU and a mechanism for entering and leaving the single currency. I think the project will survive, but not in its current form."

Tim Congdon of International Monetary Research said: "The eurozone will lose three or four members e_SEnDGreece, Portugal, maybe Ireland e_SEnD and could break up altogether because of the growing friction between France and Germany."

The recent worries about the euro's fate followed the creation last month of a $1 trillion (£691bn) bail-out fund to prevent future collapses. Although the fund boosted confidence initially, investors abandoned the euro after politicians showed reluctance to support it wholeheartedly.

Michael Tee

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Re: Mikey, a couple months ago you said the Euro was OK
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2010, 09:10:51 PM »
Possibly the EU needs to consolidate, cut off the dead weight and build from its strengths.  I see the core EU as the French-German-Benelux axis.  I don't think they'll ever cut that far back - - can't see, for example, either Italy or Sweden booted out - - but I do think that they can concentrate more on shared core values and economies.  There might have to be some sacrifice of flexibility, less tolerance of economic variation in basic measurable standards, but they're a highly sophisticated group and they should be able to work this out.  Closer political and economic integration seems to be in the cards.  I don't know how they'll work it out, but they've taken so many steps down the road (to One Europe) that it's inconceivable now that the core membership can back out.

Amianthus

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Re: Mikey, a couple months ago you said the Euro was OK
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2010, 09:44:13 PM »
We were taught in high school that the root of "conservative" is the verb "conserve," to keep as it is, which would entail the preservation of the status quo and resisting any changes thereto.

Perhaps you should go back to school - "to keep as is" is not the definition of conserve.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

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Re: Mikey, a couple months ago you said the Euro was OK
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2010, 10:03:13 PM »
<<well spoken>>

Thank you.

<<Except for the explanation of the conservative POV , which is that welth should go wherre it is welcome and well treated , earned in other words.>>

I don't see that "welcome and well-treated" equates to "earned."    I for one would certainly welcome wealth and treat it well, regardless of how it came to me, and whether I had earned it or not.  Ask any lottery winner.

We were taught in high school that the root of "conservative" is the verb "conserve," to keep as it is, which would entail the preservation of the status quo and resisting any changes thereto.  It was for that reason that our former Conservative Party changed its name to Progressive Conservative in order to avoid the impression that it was resistant to all change.  It was under a PC government, for example, that the Canadian ban on Playboy Magazine was finally lifted in the late 1950s.  Now THAT'S progress.


"Conservative: is not synonomous with "regressive" or "statist", I am not aware of any conservative impulse to avoid the movement of capital from one hand to another by earning or lending or intrest payment. That new people become welthy almost constantly is a very conservative concept.

Michael Tee

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Re: Mikey, a couple months ago you said the Euro was OK
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2010, 11:01:02 PM »
<<"Conservative: is not synonomous with "regressive" or "statist", I am not aware of any conservative impulse to avoid the movement of capital from one hand to another by earning or lending or intrest payment. That new people become welthy almost constantly is a very conservative concept.>>

I don't think conservatives are necessarily regressive, because a regression is also inconsistent with the status quo.  They are generally reactionary, in that they react against initiatives to change.  However, in the battles over the New Deal, I think they are still fighting to roll it back, not out of a desire to regress 80 years but because to them the status quo is what it was when the New Deal (wrongly, in their opinion) altered it.

Statism hasn't entered into our discussion so far, but if we lived under a monarchy and there were proposals afoot to declare a republic, then conservatives by definition would uphold the monarchy and fight the republicans, because the status quo was monarchist.  If the monarchy were statist, as most monarchies are (“L’état, c’est moi!”) then conservatives would support the statist monarch.

Conservatives who feel a market economy permitting the sudden acquisition of wealth was part of the status quo would not oppose new people getting rich, but would probably support policies that favour the lenders (rich) against the borrowers (poor) tending to uphold the folks who already have money versus the folks who want to borrow money to become rich.

Amianthus

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Re: Mikey, a couple months ago you said the Euro was OK
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2010, 11:37:16 PM »
I don't think conservatives are necessarily regressive, because a regression is also inconsistent with the status quo.

If you were to actually look up the definition of conserve, you'll find that it means "to use resources wisely" - hence conservatives try to use resources in a wise manner.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

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Re: Mikey, a couple months ago you said the Euro was OK
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2010, 11:39:04 PM »
So in Cuba a conservative type is going to be in favor to preserveing the anchient and ongoing revolution.

Kramer

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Re: Mikey, a couple months ago you said the Euro was OK
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2010, 11:41:55 PM »
So in Cuba a conservative type is going to be in favor to preserveing the anchient and ongoing revolution.

counter-revolution

Michael Tee

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Re: Mikey, a couple months ago you said the Euro was OK
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2010, 02:21:24 AM »
<<If you were to actually look up the definition of conserve, you'll find that it means "to use resources wisely" - hence conservatives try to use resources in a wise manner.>>

That was the SECOND definition.  The FIRST was, "to prevent injury, decay, waste, or loss of."  The example given of this first definition was "Conserve your strength for the race."

My own example:  Conserve our (the ruling class') money, wealth and power.  That is really what conservatives are organized to conserve.

In the same dictionary, conservator:  1.  a person who conserves or preserves; preserver, protector.  Closer to my original idea.

More to the point, the word itself:  conservative: 1.  disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc. THAT'S what I was talking about, preserving the status quo.  Preserving the wealth of the wealthy and the poverty of the poor; preserving the throne for the absolute monarch and the torture chamber for his republican enemies. 

Plane

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Re: Mikey, a couple months ago you said the Euro was OK
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2010, 05:10:27 AM »
<<If you were to actually look up the definition of conserve, you'll find that it means "to use resources wisely" - hence conservatives try to use resources in a wise manner.>>

That was the SECOND definition.  The FIRST was, "to prevent injury, decay, waste, or loss of."  The example given of this first definition was "Conserve your strength for the race."

My own example:  Conserve our (the ruling class') money, wealth and power.  That is really what conservatives are organized to conserve.

In the same dictionary, conservator:  1.  a person who conserves or preserves; preserver, protector.  Closer to my original idea.

More to the point, the word itself:  conservative: 1.  disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc. THAT'S what I was talking about, preserving the status quo.  Preserving the wealth of the wealthy and the poverty of the poor; preserving the throne for the absolute monarch and the torture chamber for his republican enemies. 

That doesn't make sense for the less welthy conservative , who are many , and none for preserveing their own poverty.

Michael Tee

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Re: Mikey, a couple months ago you said the Euro was OK
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2010, 10:07:37 AM »
<<That doesn't make sense for the less welthy conservative , who are many , and none for preserveing their own poverty.>>

Exactly.  The conservatives in reality protect the wealth of the wealthiest.  There are a lot of conservatives who have actually been suckered into voting against their own economic interests.  In the 2004 Presidential elections a map of the "reddest" voting districts was prepared and in most cases they also coincided with the poorest districts in the country.

This is the phenomenon of the redneck moron - - the guys who are so fucking dumb they will vote for anyone who waves a flag hardest and plays the "patriotism" card loudest, even as they are getting fucked in the ass by him economically speaking.  A little subtle racism thrown into the mix doesn't hurt either.