Out Damn Blot

[_JS]

1 more time Js, intention's are always perfect.  Whether the "intent" was pure as written by Marx, the ramifications have mutated to the classwarfare monster, we currently observe, and perpetuated on a daily basis from the hard core libs & socialists, in this country.  

First, intentions are not always perfect. I'm not sure where that notion comes from, but it certainly is not true.

The point is there are no perfect plans, only perfect intentions.  The point is, just because someone hasn't read your prescious Marx doesn't negate the current observations being made, in the name of Marx or "class-consciousness" (nice buzz word).  It's current manifestation is the class warfare rhetoric, oh so well echoed by the likes of Tee, of Brass, of even Xo, decrying the billions that various folks or corporations make, not "paying their fair share", and how woeful it is that they have so much, when so many have so little.  That is precisely the mindset that advocates envy, anger, hatred, jealously, all emotions, NOT seen by the likes of me, but by the likes of leftists consumed with guilt, and those less fortunate being made to feel it's not their fault their poor, but by "the rich" keeping them poor.

Enter the government.......government to the rescue.  We'll take (tax) those evil rich bastards and corporations' $$$$, even try to squeeze in a wind fall profits tax, so you all can feel better about not being as rich as they are

Heard a lady on the radio the other day, decrying how Big Oil, absolutely needs to have a wind fall profits tax applied to them, but while she went on her emotionally driven rant, couldn't for the life of her answer how such a tax would generate 1 extra gallon of oil...decrease the price of oil by even a dollar.  Nope, it was all about how obscene their profits were, all the while not listening to the $$$'s they did pay in taxes, the $$$ that did go back into the company, the $$$ that did pay their vast amount of employees, the $$$ that did have to go back to the stockholders, the $$$ that did go into futher R&D.  So busy ranting that the point that Wal-Mart makes a greater % profit than Exxon, never touched her ears.

"Class-consciousness" is not a buzz word but a term from Georg Lucaks and predates pretty much everyone in this forum. *sigh*

Interesting notion: "and those less fortunate being made to feel it's not their fault their poor, but by "the rich" keeping them poor" So, in your view, they are to blame for being poor?

Enter the government.......government to the rescue.  We'll take (tax) those evil rich bastards and corporations' $$$$, even try to squeeze in a wind fall profits tax, so you all can feel better about not being as rich as they are

This has nothing to do with Marxism or class struggle.

So busy ranting that the point that Wal-Mart makes a greater % profit than Exxon, never touched her ears.

Yet again, nothing to do with class struggle, class-consciousness, or Marx.

Why won't you read Marx, Luxemburg, or Lucaks? Most of their works are on the Internet and are free. It won't cost you anything and you can read it without the bias and filters, but the actual source documents.

[Plane]

No, there's a consciousness-raising function that they have to enter into.  This was the genius of Lenin and the Bolshevik organizers, many of them unnamed and unknown today, who convinced the masses of the reality of the class war and enlisted them in the struggle.  This was a kind of genius unknown in America today, but perhaps called into existence only by hard times, which as yet have not appeared.

Oh yes that turned out well didn't it.

[BT]

I'm not on trial, nor do I speak binary, so I will answer as I see fit.

No you aren't. Your ideas or ideas you subscribe to are on trial.

What are the moral implications of success and reaping the rewards that go with same.

[Plane]

It doesn't matter that in the US most of us love the military and move in and out of it during our lives?  The "Class ""class-conscious" proletariat"  has to be a very small subset of our people , should this small number properly hate the most of us?

That's the idea plane.  The foundation to class warfare; making 1 class be angry at another class, simply because they're more successful, and that should make you angry, and resentful.  How dare they have so much more than me or you. 

You know, if a billionaire lives next to you, who cares??  If an unemployed fella is living on the other side, you should be asking why.  The class warfare crowd's objective is to make you mad at the billionaire, and how dare he not share his money, or give it to the unemployed person.  Here's what we'll do, we'll empower the Government to legally take his money and give it to the unemployed person.     

That is not the "intent" of class-consciousness at all. As I've explained before there is no "hate" or "anger" or any other emotion involved. It is an historical movement, not an emotional or psychological movement, which seems to be some sort of hang-up within yours and Plane's conservatism.

Class-consciousness has nothing to do with empowering "the Government to legally take his money and give it to the unemployed person" and neither does class warfare.

Seriously, if both of you wish to make such statements will you at least read Marx, Lucaks, and Luxemburg just as starters to try and understand class consciousness and history. To understand Marxism you have to understand it in totality and neither of you understand it even in fragments. You simply place its terms into your prisms of "left versus right" and throw them around in your myopic, cliche worldview.

This is like reccomending Ptolemy for better understanding of Astronomy, better to study the more correct first and perhaps then the failed system as an interesting contrast.

I see that you are hung up on my misunderstanding of class diffrence as wealth diffrence, well where is a diffrence in class unrelated to wealth? Two classes of equal prosperity have what to complain about?

[kimba1]

it`s fairly easy to make class unrest .
ex. in a midsize company It`s not unheard of to see a downsizing and have fellow co-workers get laid-off and within a week hear or actually see execs get bonuses or have resort treatment which the cost some times equal or exceed the cost of the laid-off employees.
class unrest is not that big a trick

[_JS]

No, we don't. Quite to the contrary, what passes for the left in the United States is primarily content with the status quo - which is a proletariat blissfully ill-equipped for class struggle. This country is so far from class consciousness and a worker's movement that it would bring a tear to any Fascist's eye.

Class struggle is a fact of history. It is not an emotion as you assert, nor is it the idea of a welfare state as you seem to consistently imply (over and over again like a child with a drum set). It is an underlying movement of history. It does not matter if you like it, or if Bt likes it, or if Hitler hated it. That doesn't nullify the existence of class struggle or of class itself. Moreover, class is not based upon income as you, Plane, and many people seem to keep pounding away at.

Ok so what is nullifing the existence of class struggle and  class itself in the United States?

Nothing nullifies class struggle. It exists everywhere in the modern world and at anytime.

I think what you're asking is: what has prevented class and the labor movement from becoming powerful forces in the United States?

To be honest, it would take quite some time to give an in-depth explanation that would involve a lot of history. But for a quick and small difference, let's look at the political landscape. At one time the party of the economic right was the Democrats and the party of the economic left were the Republicans (Free-Soil Midwesterners). At that time the Free Soil Republicans wished to confiscate the property of the plantation owners in the South and divide it equally amongst former slave families. This did not sit well with the other faction of Republicans - the Northeast businessmen who had financed much of the war. They were traditional, but with a mind towards the business world and trading with England and France (especially concerned about cotton).

Of course the parties reversed roles eventually, but the United States never had a Labor Party that represented the Unions. Moreover, the unions were rife with their own inner-conflicts of racism and anti-communism. Perhaps there was no greater enemy of the Labor movement than the AFL. So, you have two parties with very little intrinsic ties to the workers, especially as we moved into the 80's, 90's, and today. You have a passive people who accept large swaths of corporate control in Government decision-making. This is something many other countries would find appalling. Even the Tories in Britain or Canada would be alarmed at what passes for everyday business in Washington here.

[sirs]

Interesting notion: "and those less fortunate being made to feel it's not their fault their poor, but by "the rich" keeping them poor" So, in your view, they are to blame for being poor?

YES.  In large part, YES.  Their circumstances, whatever they may be were a product of their upbringing and being fortunate vs not so fortunate, in where they've had to grow up.  People have come from overt poverty to become mutlimillionaires.  Do we "blame" them for their success??  So no, Js, "the Rich" are not some Darth Vader like entity, perpetually keeping the poor, poor.  The classes have people moving thru them constantly, poor --> middle class --> upper class, and those that have gone the other direction, as its fluid.  MOST people strive to move out of the poor into a more successful status.  And that's a good thing.  But if one just sits on their butt, and expects the government to bail them out at every turn of bad luck, it's their fault they remain poor, and not "the rich"

Enter the government.......government to the rescue.  We'll take (tax) those evil rich bastards and corporations' $$$$, even try to squeeze in a wind fall profits tax, so you all can feel better about not being as rich as they are

This has nothing to do with Marxism or class struggle.

True to the fomer, false to the latter

So busy ranting that the point that Wal-Mart makes a greater % profit than Exxon, never touched her ears.

Yet again, nothing to do with class struggle, class-consciousness, or Marx.

It goes directly to class warfare, this lady ranting at how bad it was for big oil (or Wal-Mart for that matter) to be making big profits, and how dare they......they need to be punished, and Government needs to do the punishing

Why won't you read Marx, Luxemburg, or Lucaks? Most of their works are on the Internet and are free.

I have FAR more pressing time requirements than to read what class conscious is supposed to be, or the good intentions of Marx.  But I appreciate the suggestion

[_JS]

This is like reccomending Ptolemy for better understanding of Astronomy, better to study the more correct first and perhaps then the failed system as an interesting contrast.

I see that you are hung up on my misunderstanding of class diffrence as wealth diffrence, well where is a diffrence in class unrelated to wealth? Two classes of equal prosperity have what to complain about?

No, it is recommending that you read the text from which you discuss your notions. You condemn Marxism, but do not understand it. In fact, you've shown absolutely no ability to even try and make an attempt. Would you lecture a room on SQL statements without knowing what they are? I think not.

There may be some correlation in class and wealth, but it is not causation. One can be a proletarian and do rather well in monetary gains.

Nor is Marxism a "failed system" anymore than Kant "failed." It has to be understood in its totality. If you'd bother to read it you'd understand that. Instead, you simply oppose it based on ignorant hate.

[_JS]

YES.  In large part, YES.  Their circumstances, whatever they may be were a product of their upbringing and being fortunate vs not so fortunate, in where they've had to grow up.  People have come from overt poverty to become mutlimillionaires.  Do we "blame" them for their success??  So no, Js, "the Rich" are not some Darth Vader like entity, perpetually keeping the poor, poor.  The classes have people moving thru them constantly, poor --> middle class --> upper class, and those that have gone the other direction, as its fluid.  MOST people strive to move out of the poor into a more successful status.  And that's a good thing.  But if one just sits on their butt, and expects the government to bail them out at every turn of bad luck, it's their fault they remain poor, and not "the rich"

I assume you will provide us with data on the number who "sit on their butt and expect the government to bail them out at every turn of bad luck?" I'll be interested to read that. It sounds more like the airline industry than any poor folks I know.

It goes directly to class warfare, this lady ranting at how bad it was for big oil (or Wal-Mart for that matter) to be making big profits, and how dare they......they need to be punished, and Government needs to do the punishing

No, it goes to your notion of "class warfare" which is a non-academic pretended entity that the right has created and makes for a useful stereotype. It has no basis in reality. The Government is simply a tool of your "precious" (to paraphrase you) democracy and does as the people will.

I have FAR more pressing time requirements than to read what class conscious is supposed to be, or the good intentions of Marx.  But I appreciate the suggestion

I travel to Seattle and Philadelphia on a regular basis nowadays. I do a hell of a lot of work. But I always find time to read. It doesn't take that much time...the truth is that you are either too lazy or too scared.

[_JS]

I'm not on trial, nor do I speak binary, so I will answer as I see fit.

No you aren't. Your ideas or ideas you subscribe to are on trial.

What are the moral implications of success and reaping the rewards that go with same.

I do not understand what you are saying here, BT.

[Plane]

Ok so what is nullifing the existence of class struggle and  class itself in the United States?

Nothing nullifies class struggle. It exists everywhere in the modern world and at anytime.

You can't just say that when you have also said this;"No, we don't. Quite to the contrary, what passes for the left in the United States is primarily content with the status quo - which is a proletariat blissfully ill-equipped for class struggle. This country is so far from class consciousness and a worker's movement that it would bring a tear to any Fascist's eye. "

You both admit and deny that Class struggle is happening , that it is and isn't nullified. I get the impression that you are very well read , but you havent reconciled all of your learnings with each other.

Americans do not recognise class , I am a Mister and so are you , if you work really hard you might get an honorific like Doctor or Senator but not an American Lordship or Peerage nor can you become a higher caste even if you become very pious in your religion , I cannot be required to pull my forelock in deferance to you nor you me , we may honor each other willingly , perhaps to acnoledge learning or accomplishment , but even that is an option of manners not a fact of law.

I feel a brotherhood with Benjamin Franklin thjough I don't feel I am his scientific equal , I feel a kinship with Thomas Jefferson though I have a fraction of his energy or genius, these guys wanted a brotherhood of Americans and they eschewed the peerage that they were well placed to erect preferring to adress their brother Americans as equals even tho they had entirely the option to establish a seaprate caste for themselves.

This is the country where you claim to have been born in a log cabin if you want to be the top boss if you were raised by the uppercrust that is a problem to overcome , even some wellborn claim humility in order to get chosen the class struggle isn't real here.

[Plane]

[quote ]
Nor is Marxism a "failed system" anymore than Kant "failed." It has to be understood in its totality. If you'd bother to read it you'd understand that. Instead, you simply oppose it based on ignorant hate.
[/quote]


There were for half a century ,a thousand universitys that taught Marxism as economic theroy, most of the students of these classes have moved on to more sophisticated economic theroys now.

Can ten million ex marxists be wrong?

[Plane]

This is like reccomending Ptolemy for better understanding of Astronomy, better to study the more correct first and perhaps then the failed system as an interesting contrast.

I see that you are hung up on my misunderstanding of class diffrence as wealth diffrence, well where is a diffrence in class unrelated to wealth? Two classes of equal prosperity have what to complain about?

No, it is recommending that you read the text from which you discuss your notions. You condemn Marxism, but do not understand it. In fact, you've shown absolutely no ability to even try and make an attempt. Would you lecture a room on SQL statements without knowing what they are? I think not.

There may be some correlation in class and wealth, but it is not causation. One can be a proletarian and do rather well in monetary gains.

Nor is Marxism a "failed system" anymore than Kant "failed." It has to be understood in its totality. If you'd bother to read it you'd understand that. Instead, you simply oppose it based on ignorant hate.

I do hate Marxism , but is it fair to call this hatred ignorant?

I hate Facism too ,and I understand it more from its results than from reading the theroys of its founders .

Do I really have to read up on Facist theroys and understand them in detail to find disgust in them?

The proof of ANY pudding is in the tasteing thereof Marxism had half the world in its clutches for a century , in the universitys of these lands no economic theroy was taught before Marxism , it has had a more than fair chance to succeed , what better labratory could you ask for to test it?

[sirs]

I assume you will provide us with data on the number who "sit on their butt and expect the government to bail them out at every turn of bad luck?" I'll be interested to read that. It sounds more like the airline industry than any poor folks I know.

It's rhetorical Js.  Obviously there are no stats on butt sitting.  Are you denying there aren't thousands upon thousands of poor who's only strive is to live day to day, largely off Government subsidies and handouts??  No one is denying there are those who work hard, but don't seem to get anywhere, but I'm guessing many of those that stay in overt poverty levels, have little else to "blame" than themselves and/or their circumstances.  Hardly the fault of "the rich", or anyone else, for that matter.  And neither is anyone saying we, as a Christian nation, ought not help the less fortunate......as a CHOICE

It goes directly to class warfare, this lady ranting at how bad it was for big oil (or Wal-Mart for that matter) to be making big profits, and how dare they......they need to be punished, and Government needs to do the punishing

No, it goes to your notion of "class warfare" which is a non-academic pretended entity that the right has created and makes for a useful stereotype. It has no basis in reality.

It has EVERYTHING to do with reality, and very little to do with some interpretation in a book.  It was her rant, it was her decrying how terrible it was for big oil to be making such big profits.  it was her decrying the need for a wind fall profits tax, that would do absolutely zip in decreasing the price of oil, or increasing its supply.  THAT's the current reality I'm referencing.

The Government is simply a tool of your "precious" (to paraphrase you) democracy and does as the people will.

And if you get enough people (a majority) all emotionally worked up about how unfair it is that they have so much less than "the rich", presto, democracy at work

I travel to Seattle and Philadelphia on a regular basis nowadays. I do a hell of a lot of work. But I always find time to read. It doesn't take that much time...the truth is that you are either too lazy or too scared.

OR......not interested, especially since I have so little down time, compared to you.  I'll go with option 3.  As i said, I have no need to read about the perfect intentions of marx, as i have to live the current reality of it's acute mutations

[Michael Tee]

<<Oh yes that [the Russian Revolution] turned out well didn't it.>>

Sorta like the American Revolution turned out - - had its good side and its bad side.

You seem to have a very one-sided view of things which just isn't grounded in history.