Out Damn Blot

[Michael Tee]

<<I have FAR more pressing time requirements than to read what class conscious is supposed to be, or the good intentions of Marx.  But I appreciate the suggestion>>

That's really what you're up against, JS.  Not just ignorance, but willful ignorance.  Not usually so concisely expressed.  But then again, aren't we equally guilty? - - who on the left has the time to read the classics of the right-wing canon, apart, perhaps, from Mein Kampf, which is interesting mainly for its bizarre aspects, and probably disavowed by most right-wingers today?

What this forum teaches me about right-left "dialogue" is that it is almost completely a dialogue of the deaf.  Minds are never changed, sometimes points are scored.  Ultimately there is no logical argument why you should be your brother's keeper, there are just people who feel they should be and others who don't.

[Michael Tee]

<<Americans do not recognise class >>

It's recognized in every country club, in every motor vehicle or liquor advertisment, in every nightclub or bar or restaurant, in every Hollywood movie, TV drama or sitcom or soap.  Americans certainly do recognize

<<This is the country where you claim to have been born in a log cabin if you want to be the top boss if you were raised by the uppercrust that is a problem to overcome >> 

This if nothing else should have convinced you of the reality of the class struggle.  Why on earth would a well-born individual have to claim he was born in a log cabin if not to claim a false solidarity with the members of the working class who correctly perceive those born to wealth as class enemies?

[Amianthus]

National Safety Council

I just looked it up
I can`t find much history info on it.
I never even heard of this place before now
I`m sure it does good stuff but wow.

Funny, every company I've ever worked for had NSC approved safety manuals and training courses. The "green cross" was on lots of stuff. They did all the CPR courses, the AED courses, fire safety training, etc...

[sirs]

<<I have FAR more pressing time requirements than to read what class conscious is supposed to be, or the good intentions of Marx.  But I appreciate the suggestion>>

That's really what you're up against, JS.  Not just ignorance, but willful ignorance.  

Hillarious coming from someone who willfully ignores any and all investigative conclusions, regarding Bush, the elections, 911, Intelligence failures, that demonstrate no wrong doing, no illegal acts, no lying us into war.  Damn those facts, its all one big conspiratorial cabal, with Bush at the head     

[kimba1]

oops
I`m civil service and I`m in security
so I might be stumbling on to something here
but you say manuels
I`m sure whatever books we got here maybe NSC approved.
but we`ll never know if the places with safety violation may also be NSC approved.
It`s probly like osha
do wqhat needed to shut them up than ignore them
like OHSA
quite afew business would rather pay fines than make the place safer since it`s cheaper that way.
remember overall people are not exactly safety conscious
ex. helmets,seat belts
alot of folks think these thing are stuff to shut the liberals up
don`t forget how these policies are made.
all are reactive measure never done before somebody gets hurt.

[Plane]

<<Oh yes that [the Russian Revolution] turned out well didn't it.>>

Sorta like the American Revolution turned out - - had its good side and its bad side.

You seem to have a very one-sided view of things which just isn't grounded in history. 

Good side?

The Prison of Nations that Lenin bitterly complained about remained a prison of nations , the faces in the head office changed but was there real change?

The Czars built the worlds longest rail road and Stalin bilt the worlds biggest dam , the simularity of goals is very striking.

The simularity of methods too.

I had high hopes when Russia lost its communism , but the habits of the Czars and Commisars seem to be reasserting themselves.

[Plane]

<<Americans do not recognise class >>

It's recognized in every country club, in every motor vehicle or liquor advertisment, in every nightclub or bar or restaurant, in every Hollywood movie, TV drama or sitcom or soap.  Americans certainly do recognize

[/quote ]No , the only thing that might keep me out of one of those venues or possessions is a lack of cash , which _JS assures me is not equivelent to class , there is no American class in the sense of the word you are attempting to use it. There is no peerage , no royalty that cannot be entered or lost.[quote ]

<<This is the country where you claim to have been born in a log cabin if you want to be the top boss if you were raised by the uppercrust that is a problem to overcome >> 

This if nothing else should have convinced you of the reality of the class struggle.  Why on earth would a well-born individual have to claim he was born in a log cabin if not to claim a false solidarity with the members of the working class who correctly perceive those born to wealth as class enemies?

Do you realise how contrived you had to get to say this?  Yes , to become a Senator or President ithelps a lot to have cash , but it helps even more to have a common touch , anyone who cannot cross a class barrier has no hope of high office in America.

[Michael Tee]

<<Yes , to become a Senator or President ithelps a lot to have cash , but it helps even more to have a common touch , anyone who cannot cross a class barrier has no hope of high office in America.>>

I see, so America has no classes, just class barriers.  Thanks.

[BT]

just class barriers

What class barriers?

[kimba1]

well it might called minor class distinctions
ex. like the thinking teachers should be paid more than garbage workers.

[Plane]

<<Yes , to become a Senator or President ithelps a lot to have cash , but it helps even more to have a common touch , anyone who cannot cross a class barrier has no hope of high office in America.>>

I see, so America has no classes, just class barriers.  Thanks.

You are almost there ...

Now point to a class barrier and I bet I will be able to find an example of a hole in that barrier.

It isn't easy to earn a lot of money , it isn't easy to steal a lot and hide that it is stolen , but to get elected as an eleteist is even harder , the barriers against gaining political power work in the reverse than you seem to think they would.

[Michael Tee]

<<Hillarious coming from someone who willfully ignores any and all investigative conclusions, regarding Bush, the elections, 911, Intelligence failures, that demonstrate no wrong doing, no illegal acts, no lying us into war.  Damn those facts, its all one big conspiratorial cabal, with Bush at the head >>

Well, maybe if even one of those "investigative conclusions" had included even one investigator who wasn't a Washington insider, I would have shown a little more respect for it.  Just let Ralph Nader or Noam Chomsky or Paul Craig Roberts or Naomi Klein or Seymour Hersh or the Rev. Jeremiah Wright participate in one little investigation, instead of the clubby little group investigating one of their own Republocrat brethren, and I might have the tiniest shred of respect for it.

But as constituted, all of the "investigative conclusions"  as you hilariously choose to call them have about zero genuine investigation in them and all the "conclusions" were formed long before any "investigation" was actually commentced.  As anyone but a moron can see just by reading the names of the committee members, these "investigations" can all be described in one word:  WHITEWASH.

[sirs]

<<Hillarious coming from someone who willfully ignores any and all investigative conclusions, regarding Bush, the elections, 911, Intelligence failures, that demonstrate no wrong doing, no illegal acts, no lying us into war.  Damn those facts, its all one big conspiratorial cabal, with Bush at the head >>

Well, maybe if even one of those "investigative conclusions" had included even one investigator who wasn't a Washington insider, I would have shown a little more respect for it.  

Naaaaa....unless it had a ringing conviction placed around Bush's neck, you had no intentions of giving it any respect, what-so-ever.  That, BTW, all your rationalization efforts aside, is a perfect example of woeful ignorance.

[_JS]

Ok so what is nullifing the existence of class struggle and  class itself in the United States?

Nothing nullifies class struggle. It exists everywhere in the modern world and at anytime.

You can't just say that when you have also said this;"No, we don't. Quite to the contrary, what passes for the left in the United States is primarily content with the status quo - which is a proletariat blissfully ill-equipped for class struggle. This country is so far from class consciousness and a worker's movement that it would bring a tear to any Fascist's eye. "

Note that said the American proletariat is "blissfully ill-equipped for class struggle." That does not negate the fact that their is and always will be (for as long as capitalism exists) class struggle. You find mutual exclusion where there is none.

[_JS]

[quote ]
Nor is Marxism a "failed system" anymore than Kant "failed." It has to be understood in its totality. If you'd bother to read it you'd understand that. Instead, you simply oppose it based on ignorant hate.

There were for half a century ,a thousand universitys that taught Marxism as economic theroy, most of the students of these classes have moved on to more sophisticated economic theroys now.

Can ten million ex marxists be wrong?
[/quote]

Again, Marxism has not failed any more than Kant failed, or Kierkegaard failed. Yours is a nonsensical sentence. The Soviet Union failed, but in that same time period a number of capitalist regimes failed as well. Do we consider capitalism a failure too? Your line of thinking is false and presents a false conclusion.