DebateGate

General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Michael Tee on September 20, 2008, 01:30:23 PM

Title: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Michael Tee on September 20, 2008, 01:30:23 PM
Just watched CNN this morning and it sure looks to me like the final nail in the GOP coffin.

After two full terms of Republican "leadership" the country has come to this - - deregulated financial mismanagement on a scale never before seen, requiring $700 BILLION of YOUR money for a two-year bail-out.  YOU are gonna pay for what the Republican President and his Congress FAILED to do for almost all of his term.  There is NO WAY any of this can be blamed on Clinton. 

Moreover, from what comment I've seen on TV this morning, the $700 bill buys only a "temporary fix."  The underlying problems are still there, unresolved, and the currency, by virtue of the new printing of funds required for the bailout, has been further weakened, accelerating the time when foreign holders and speculators will finally have to dump, regardless of consequences.

But that's not even the best part.  The Republicans, in their "judgment" and "experience" - - McCain among them, and prominently so - - embroiled the nation in a pointless fiasco, a war that has so far cost $500 billion (ten times more than the original projected cost!) and is still on-going with no end in sight.  Prof. John Siteglitz, a Nobel-Prize-winning economist, has projected a TOTAL THREE TRILLION DOLLAR COST of this war, which has also cost the American people 4,000 American lives and almost 30,000 wounded and crippled.  THERE IS NO POSSIBLE GOOD OUTCOME FOR THIS WAR.  The cost is what it is, and can only go up.  The dead remain dead, the wounded remain wounded.  Oh, but . . . but the Iraqis now have "democracy" out of it.  BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!  They never WANTED democracy.  Each faction wanted to WIN - - they have a never-ending civil war, more torture and atrocities from all sides, the militias, the government and the Americans, than they ever got under Saddam Hussein, millions refugees abroad and even more millions refugees in their own country.   THAT'S what the Iraqis got out of all this.  THAT'S why 70% want the Americans to leave.  Now.

So what is the fiscal capacity of America now to fight another war as potentially draining as the Iraq War?  None.  Nada.  Zero.  Zip.  They're a punked-out power and don't think the other powers don't fully realize this.  Don't think Iran doesn't have this all figured out.  Or Russia.  Or the Afghan and Iraqi rebels.  Or the Chinese.  All your lies and bullshit are finally catching up with you.  What a shame.  Crime DOESN'T pay.  Not in the long run.  Not when the criminal is particularly stupid.

When Obama promises "change" I think most people "get" it.  Change isn't a "new policy."  New policies are cranked out at will by college kids  or academics working for one side or the other and they don't mean shit.  You could probably make a mountain bigger than Everest out of all the plans of all the candidates over the past 20 years.  Change means new people, new outlooks and above all a change of controlling interests.  Most people probably understand at some level that both parties' candidates have been bankrolled by big money in the past, that they came from the same dominant white corporate-controlled culture and that they represented the same corporate interests and the same foreign-policy special interests, a good example of which is the Jewish Lobby, for which both sides competed vigorously with one another to prove their loyalty.

Obama represents a break from the old interests because he does not depend on them for campaign money.  THAT'S why they're scared of him.  He's a man they cannot control.  That is too big a risk for them to take.  The "experience" thing is a crock.  McCain's "experience" is limited at best, but he's been in the Senate for three decades and accomplished next to nothing of any lasting value.  With all his "experience," he lacked the fundamental good judgment shown by Obama in opposing the Iraq War.  His REAL view of the value of experience is shown in his nomination of Palin as Veep.  If experience were anywhere near as valuable as he claims, he would never have picked her.  Harry Truman once said there were hundreds of men who could do his job, it was nowhere near as difficult as the popular mythology had made it out to be.  Obama has a razor-sharp intellect and the academic credentials to prove it.  The old interests have brought the country to the brink of catastrophe and the people know it.  That's why they want change now, and that's why Obama is the only credible choice for those who want change.
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: BT on September 20, 2008, 01:38:45 PM
Obama is AWOL on the ecoomic situation.

BTW are you aware that AIG (85 Billion) was regulated by the state of New York. The guy at the helm was an Elliot Spitzer appointee.

Fannie and Freddie were creations of FDR and semi privatized under LBJ.



Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Michael Tee on September 20, 2008, 02:19:50 PM
<<Obama is AWOL on the ecoomic situation.>>

That seems to be the GOP talking point du jour.  On Larry King Live last night, this guy kept parroting that line over and over again, until even Larry King got fed up with him, a rare occurrence indeed.

I think there is a fundamental desire for change in the country.  You are really talking "instant solution" which is not at all the same thing.  Obviously I can't speak for the country, but I'll tell you my take on this, because I think there are a lot of Americans right now who see this the same way. 

This problem is NOT going to be solved by some quick-fix policy spat out overnight by a bunch of policy wonks working for either candidate.  So I'm not particularly impressed that McCain now claims to have a solution or that Obama doesn't.  McCain in fact was spectacularly unimpressive, being against the AIG bail-out on Monday and for it on Tuesday. 

The problem was like a slow-growing cancer, but it required a specific kind of environment over the past years in order to grow at all.  That environment was provided by both Democrats and Republicans - - it was an instinctively "pro-business" attitude which has somehow come to mean anti-regulatory, and it was an environment that went from anti-regulatory to laissez-faire to sauve-qui-peut in a relatively short period of time.  For most of the last eight years, this process accelerated under a Republican President and a Republican Congress.

How did it happen that the elected representatives of the people were at once so solicitous of the corporate interests involved and so cavalier towards safeguarding the interests of the American people who elected them and whom they were sworn to protect?  IMHO, it can all be explained by the realities of campaign financing.  John McCain's role in the Keating Five scandal, whitewashed though he ultimately was, provides a textbook example of how it works - - lavish campaign financing, expensive vacations, golfing trips and the good life in general, whatever it takes for whatever candidate or office-holder is being wooed - - and the sucker takes the bait nine times out of ten.  Does what's expected of him.

You're right - - Obama's AWOL on the economic situation.  That doesn't matter.  What DOES matter is that he's not on anyone's payroll.  Tony Rezko's in jail.  He's not writing any paycheques and if he were, he's very, very small stuff compared to guys like Charles Keating.  His interests are strictly local, not national.  He might be the kind of guy Obama had to rely on when he was just fighting his way off the streets of Chicago, but he's a long way past that now.  The people KNOW where Obama's money comes from, and it ain't Tony Rezko.  Obama's money comes truly from the people.  People like them, his supporters.

So what people can understand very well is that when Obama DOES make a decision on the economy, or on anything else, it's going to be UNINFLUENCED by the kind of people who in the past could buy John McCain, or both sides of the Congressional aisle.  Obama's a new kind of candidate precisely because he's got a new source of campaign funding.  THAT is the kind of change that people want.  An elimination of the special behind-the-scenes powers and the candidates that they could buy and sell.

<<BTW are you aware that AIG (85 Billion) was regulated by the state of New York. The guy at the helm was an Elliot Spitzer appointee.>>

Weak, BT, incredibly weak.  AIG operated nationally and internationally.  It is not the State of New York that is bailing out AIG, it is the United States of America.  You can't blame this one on Spitzer any more than you can blame it on Clinton.  The Republicans have had EIGHT YEARS to fix the problem.

<<Fannie and Freddie were creations of FDR and semi privatized under LBJ.>>

Yeah, and George Lincoln Rockwell, the late head of the American Nazi Party, was the son of Norman Rockwell.  At some point in a progeny's life, the parent ceases to bear any responsibility for his actions.  They accomplished a lot under many Presidential administrations.  Under Bush, they soured and went bad.  The Republican President and the Republican-controlled Congress had almost eight years to see the problem developing and did nothing to head off the looming disaster.  Leadership? 

Sorry, BT, eight years is a long time.  Too long to blame on the Democrats.  I'm afraid your brand is fucked.  It's tainted meat, and nobody's buying.  This is gonna be a landslide.
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: BT on September 20, 2008, 02:26:43 PM
Quote
It is not the State of New York that is bailing out AIG, it is the United States of America.

States regulate insurance companies. In AIG''s case it was New York.

Quote
Yeah, and George Lincoln Rockwell, the late head of the American Nazi Party, was the son of Norman Rockwell.

No he wasn't.







Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Michael Tee on September 20, 2008, 02:59:46 PM
Well, thank you for correcting me on the parentage of George Lincoln Rockwell.  I'll amend my argument accordingly - - at some point in his son's life, Doc Rockwell ceased to be responsible for him.

I'm not sure how things work in the U.S. regarding insurance regulation, but Canada also is a federation and what makes sense here would make the same sense in the U.S.   Because the Provinces regulate the insurance industry, Ontario licenses insurance companies and regulates them.  If an insurance company licensed in another Province wishes to do business in Ontario, it must conform to certain provisions of Ontario insurance law and provide certification of compliance.  In addition, but I'm not sure of this, I believe that an insurer wishing to do business across Canada needs some Federal approvals as well although perhaps this might be an alternative to seeking approval in each and every Provincial jurisdiction.    I would bet the U.S. has pretty much the same system we do, (a) since it makes sense and (b) since most of our advances in administrative law are usually copied from what some American state has already done first.
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: BT on September 20, 2008, 03:21:26 PM
Canada is not the US just as McCain is not Bush.

Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Michael Tee on September 20, 2008, 03:29:27 PM
I find it very hard to believe that the U.S. is going to bail out a company whose oversight and control lay entirely within the purview of the State of New York.

Sorry, but I just don't buy it. 

Even if it were true, it's evidence of a shocking lack of responsibility for the Bush administration to watch helplessly while a situation entirely within the control of the state of New York ran up an ultimate $700 billion liability on American taxpayers.  Some action should have been formulated way earlier, even in the form of a federal law forbidding bail-out money to any state-regulated institution that did not meet Federal standards.  They stood by "thumb in the bum and mind in neutral" while all this went down and then reach into their wallet for $700 billion to pay when the shit hits the fan?

Unbelievable.  NOBODY will buy that.  That is NOT the kind of leadership and initiative they expect from their leaders.

There is no way I can see that any intelligent voter will overlook this.  You're living in a dreamworld.
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Universe Prince on September 20, 2008, 04:38:43 PM
deregulated financial mismanagement on a scale never before seen

Right. And the Great Depression was caused by unfettered laissez faire capitalism. And yes, I am being wholly sarcastic.

But you are probably right that this will help Obama. He's going to promise to save us all, and we will dutifully vote for the man who promises to screw up the economy so much that we will be left dependent on government, much like most of the public was during the Great Depression. And we will have no one to blame but ourselves. The government will save us by damning us, and we will blindly ignore the damnation like slaves who find terrifying the prospect of freedom.
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: BT on September 20, 2008, 07:25:24 PM
Quote
I find it very hard to believe that the U.S. is going to bail out a company whose oversight and control lay entirely within the purview of the State of New York.

Sorry, but I just don't buy it. 

Then i suggest you study up on the issue and find out why AIG was bailed out and not Lehmans.

Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Michael Tee on September 20, 2008, 07:36:06 PM
<<Then i suggest you study up on the issue and find out why AIG was bailed out and not Lehmans. >>

And I suggest that if you've got anything to say on the issue, that you come out and say it, instead of recommending that I read up on the issue.  We're exchanging ideas and arguments here and if you know more than I do or have facts I'm not aware of, advance the debate by stating them, not by sending me off on a wild goose chase after some undefined rebuttal which you claim is just waiting to be discovered by me.  And more often than not, if past experience is any guide, is not.

If I wanted to become an expert on the subject, I'd take a course in it instead of wasting my time batting ideas around with people who might or might not know something I don't.  I don't come in here posing as an expert on something I'm not, and I don't think you should either.  I give my opinion based on what I know and if anyone knows more than I, I'm happy to hear and consider their POV.  Your posing as an expert who has "studied up on the issue" and presumably knows a lot more about it than I do, is bullshit.  Put up or shut up.
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: BT on September 20, 2008, 07:49:24 PM
I've already posted the article from Time magazine that explains it all in this forum.

But here's a hint.

A lot more little people would be affected by the failure of AIG than the failure of Lehman Bros.

You are interested in protecting the working man aren't you?






Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Michael Tee on September 20, 2008, 08:01:25 PM
You STILL don't get it, do you?

The issue is not the bail-out it's the preceding 8 years of neglect that permitted the situation to develop to the point where the American people have to shell out $700 billion to rectify corporate misfeasance by people who were in bed with the old-style "leaders" on both sides of the aisle.
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Plane on September 20, 2008, 08:34:18 PM
Are Socialists pleased that a major Company now is the property of the people?
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Plane on September 20, 2008, 08:37:06 PM
You're right - - Obama's AWOL on the economic situation.  That doesn't matter.  What DOES matter is that he's not on anyone's payroll.

Biden is on that payroll.
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: BT on September 20, 2008, 08:43:20 PM
Quote
You STILL don't get it, do you?

I get that AIG was regulated by the state of new york.

Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Amianthus on September 20, 2008, 11:14:55 PM
I find it very hard to believe that the U.S. is going to bail out a company whose oversight and control lay entirely within the purview of the State of New York.

The Federal Reserve Bank of New York took the initiative to pledge to the bailout. Congress just backed them up.
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Knutey on September 20, 2008, 11:31:20 PM
I've already posted the article from Time magazine that explains it all in this forum.

But here's a hint.

A lot more little people would be affected by the failure of AIG than the failure of Lehman Bros.

You are interested in protecting the working man aren't you?








BTW AIG gave much more to Repubs and Lehmann more to Dems. How odd no?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4017446 (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4017446)
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Michael Tee on September 20, 2008, 11:32:20 PM
<<I get that AIG was regulated by the state of new york. >>

I KNOW that's what you get.  Unfortunately, it appears that that's ALL that you get.

What you still don't get is this:

<<The issue is not the bail-out, it's the preceding 8 years of neglect that permitted the situation to develop to the point where the American people have to shell out $700 billion to rectify corporate misfeasance by people who were in bed with the old-style "leaders" on both sides of the aisle."

Don't worry, I know that the American people are nowhere near as obtuse.  They know right away that the $700 billion comes from their pockets and comes as a result of negligence and governmental misfeasance, the last eight years of which can be laid at the feet of the Republican Party.  If you don't get it, it's no great loss.  Enough Americans DO get it, and they'll make the necessary adjustments in Novermber.
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: BT on September 20, 2008, 11:32:57 PM
Quote
Even if it were true, it's evidence of a shocking lack of responsibility for the Bush administration to watch helplessly while a situation entirely within the control of the state of New York ran up an ultimate $700 billion liability on American taxpayers.

AIG was 86 Billion.

You really are like a windup toy playing fast and loose with facts and figures.

Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: BT on September 20, 2008, 11:33:47 PM
Quote
BTW AIG gave much more to Repubs and Lehmann more to Dems. How odd no?

Goes to show dems are a bad investment.

Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: BT on September 20, 2008, 11:35:23 PM
Quote
Don't worry, I know that the American people are nowhere near as obtuse.  They know right away that the $700 billion comes from their pockets and comes as a result of negligence and governmental misfeasance, the last eight years of which can be laid at the feet of the Republican Party.  If you don't get it, it's no great loss.  Enough Americans DO get it, and they'll make the necessary adjustments in Novermber.

What Americans get is this is the perfect storm and i don't think they will show much interest in a candidate whose plan is AWOL.

Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Knutey on September 20, 2008, 11:36:02 PM
Quote
BTW AIG gave much more to Repubs and Lehmann more to Dems. How odd no?

Goes to show dems are a bad investment.



Shows Repubs are bigger crooks.
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 21, 2008, 12:39:58 AM
Fannie and Freddie were creations of FDR and semi privatized under LBJ.


So what?

Until Phil Gramm made it possible to bundle mortgages and sell the bundles withoutr adequate supervision, Fannie and Freddie were solvent.

This mess is due to a lack of regulation, and that was caused durung the Juniorbush administration. You can't blame FDR and LBJ for this.
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: BT on September 21, 2008, 01:05:02 AM
Quote
Shows Repubs are bigger crooks.

Yet it is the dems who took the money and didn't deliver.

Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Universe Prince on September 21, 2008, 12:26:25 PM

The government will save us by damning us, and we will blindly ignore the damnation like slaves who find terrifying the prospect of freedom.


And thus it came to pass:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a1hr1v2FUeAg&refer=home (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a1hr1v2FUeAg&refer=home)

      The Bush administration asked Congress for unchecked power to buy $700 billion in bad mortgage investments from U.S. financial companies in what would be an unprecedented government intrusion into the markets.

The plan, designed by Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, is aimed at averting a credit freeze that would bring the financial system and economic growth to a standstill. The bill would bar courts from reviewing actions taken under its authority.

[...]

The plan would raise the ceiling on the national debt and spend as much as the combined annual budgets of the Departments of Defense, Education and Health and Human Services. Paulson is asking for the power to hire asset managers and award contracts to private companies. Most provisions of the proposal expire after two years from the date of enactment.

A failure by the government to support the U.S. financial system could lead to ``a depression,'' Senator Charles Schumer told reporters in New York. ``To do nothing is to risk the kind of economic downturn this country hasn't seen in 60 years.''

[...]

Paulson is seeking an expansion of federal influence over markets that hasn't been seen since the Great Depression, said Charles Geisst, author of ``100 Years of Wall Street'' and a finance professor at Manhattan College in New York.

[...]

The ban on legal challenges of actions by Treasury is ``distasteful, it's unfortunate and it's bad precedent, but this is an emergency and you have to act,'' said Jerry Markham, a law professor at Florida State University and author of ``A Financial History of the United States.''

``What you don't want happen is to have lawsuits that will slow things down and cause problems,'' he said.

The proposal would raise the nation's debt ceiling to $11.315 trillion from $10.615 trillion and require the Treasury secretary to report back to Congress three months after Treasury first uses its new powers, and then semiannually after that.

[...]

The Bush administration seeks ``dictatorial power unreviewable by the third branch of government, the courts, to try to resolve the crisis,'' said Frank Razzano, a former assistant chief trial attorney at the Securities and Exchange Commission now at Pepper Hamilton LLP in Washington. ``We are taking a huge leap of faith.''
      
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Michael Tee on September 21, 2008, 11:58:27 PM
<<AIG was 86 Billion.

<<You really are like a windup toy playing fast and loose with facts and figures. >>

Ridiculous.    YOU are the one playing fast and loose with the numbers.  AIG is only a part of the problem, not the whole problem.  AIG contributed $86 billion to a $700 billion problem.  It was the Bush administration that stood by for 8 years while a problem built up that is today costing the American people $700 billion to resolve.  Stood by and did nothing but watch.  I'd love to see how they paste that on the Democrats' ass.


<<What Americans get is this is the perfect storm . . . >>

A "perfect storm" that built up un-noticed through eight years of Republican administration?  That bursts in one day and is gone the next?  I don't think so.

<< . . . and i don't think they will show much interest in a candidate whose plan is AWOL.>>

No, but they'll be REAL interested in a 72-year-old dummy who tells them he's against bail-out on Monday, for it on Tuesday and has "the plan" to fix it all on Wednesday.  He'll fire the head of the SEC on Monday.  Or wait a minute, no he won't on Tuesday.  Yeah, that's a plan, alright.

IF they are going to be interested in McCain's so-called "plan" then they are waaay dumber than even I thought they were, and, frankly, I have thought they were pretty damn dumb.  You better hope they are dumber than a box of rocks if you want them to trust in McCain's "plan" rather than Obama's abilities.
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: BT on September 22, 2008, 12:37:42 AM
Quote
You better hope they are dumber than a box of rocks if you want them to trust in McCain's "plan" rather than Obama's abilities.

So we should just have faith in Obama. Even though he hasn't articulated a plan.
Maybe that Jesus was a community organizer isn't so far off.

Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Michael Tee on September 22, 2008, 01:13:19 PM
<<So we should just have faith in Obama. Even though he hasn't articulated a plan.
<<Maybe that Jesus was a community organizer isn't so far off.>>

Say that you are faced with a huge and immensely complex problem.  A problem so complex that even Michael Tee can't understand it.  And two men come to you to apply for a job, the duties of which will include fixing the problem.

One of the two men is a seventy-two-year-old numbnuts and former pilot, who came within a hair's breadth of flunking out of a military academy (!) and the other is a youngish Professor of Constitutional Law who graduated magna cum laude from Harvard Law and was the chief editor of the Harvard Law Review.


One of them, the 72-year-old numbnuts, tells you that there is no real problem, his main economic adviser says that Americans who complain about the problem are just "whiners," then he tells you that a bail-out isn't the answer, then he tells you that a bail-out IS the answer, and then he brings you his plan, ready-made in a matter of days.

Who gets the job?  (Hint:  This has nothing to do with Jesus.)

Oh, and let's not forget, Old Numbnuts had about three decades logged in of watching the situation fester and did nothing of any lasting value to change things around.

Who gets the job?

The other guy, the youngisn
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 22, 2008, 01:23:17 PM
That is not entirely fair.

You have not proven that McCain's nuts are in fact, numb.
==============================================
For a candidate to discuss economics is basically fruitless. It is a complicated subject, and the voters you need to convince are not clever enough to complete a 1040 EZ form, let alone evaluate topics like derivatives and zero-prime lending. If you had all the answers and were lecturing economists in ECO 567 Macroeconomics, you would be lucky to have 80% of the class understand 80% of your explanation.

As it is, five minutes into your lecture, 90% of your audience has switched over to a rerun of Gilligan's Island. No candidate can hold an audience on this subject. Maybe with Ross Perot's charts, you could keep 15% of the audience. Of course, the undecided voter is who you are really after, and many of these have the attention span of a drunken fruitfly.

So, yes, it is about trust. We have to trust that one of these guys knows more, and identify who he is and vote for him, assuming that this is the decisive issue.
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: BT on September 22, 2008, 01:25:50 PM
Quote
Oh, and let's not forget, Old Numbnuts had about three decades logged in of watching the situation fester and did nothing of any lasting value to change things around.

really? what is this story about ?

How the Democrats Created the Financial Crisis: Kevin Hassett

Commentary by Kevin Hassett


Sept. 22 (Bloomberg) -- The financial crisis of the past year has provided a number of surprising twists and turns, and from Bear Stearns Cos. to American International Group Inc., ambiguity has been a big part of the story.

Why did Bear Stearns fail, and how does that relate to AIG? It all seems so complex.

But really, it isn't. Enough cards on this table have been turned over that the story is now clear. The economic history books will describe this episode in simple and understandable terms: Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac exploded, and many bystanders were injured in the blast, some fatally.

Fannie and Freddie did this by becoming a key enabler of the mortgage crisis. They fueled Wall Street's efforts to securitize subprime loans by becoming the primary customer of all AAA-rated subprime-mortgage pools. In addition, they held an enormous portfolio of mortgages themselves.

In the times that Fannie and Freddie couldn't make the market, they became the market. Over the years, it added up to an enormous obligation. As of last June, Fannie alone owned or guaranteed more than $388 billion in high-risk mortgage investments. Their large presence created an environment within which even mortgage-backed securities assembled by others could find a ready home.

The problem was that the trillions of dollars in play were only low-risk investments if real estate prices continued to rise. Once they began to fall, the entire house of cards came down with them.

Turning Point

Take away Fannie and Freddie, or regulate them more wisely, and it's hard to imagine how these highly liquid markets would ever have emerged. This whole mess would never have happened.

It is easy to identify the historical turning point that marked the beginning of the end.

Back in 2005, Fannie and Freddie were, after years of dominating Washington, on the ropes. They were enmeshed in accounting scandals that led to turnover at the top. At one telling moment in late 2004, captured in an article by my American Enterprise Institute colleague Peter Wallison, the Securities and Exchange Comiission's chief accountant told disgraced Fannie Mae chief Franklin Raines that Fannie's position on the relevant accounting issue was not even ``on the page'' of allowable interpretations.

Then legislative momentum emerged for an attempt to create a ``world-class regulator'' that would oversee the pair more like banks, imposing strict requirements on their ability to take excessive risks. Politicians who previously had associated themselves proudly with the two accounting miscreants were less eager to be associated with them. The time was ripe.

Greenspan's Warning

The clear gravity of the situation pushed the legislation forward. Some might say the current mess couldn't be foreseen, yet in 2005 Alan Greenspan told Congress how urgent it was for it to act in the clearest possible terms: If Fannie and Freddie ``continue to grow, continue to have the low capital that they have, continue to engage in the dynamic hedging of their portfolios, which they need to do for interest rate risk aversion, they potentially create ever-growing potential systemic risk down the road,'' he said. ``We are placing the total financial system of the future at a substantial risk.''

What happened next was extraordinary. For the first time in history, a serious Fannie and Freddie reform bill was passed by the Senate Banking Committee. The bill gave a regulator power to crack down, and would have required the companies to eliminate their investments in risky assets.

Different World

If that bill had become law, then the world today would be different. In 2005, 2006 and 2007, a blizzard of terrible mortgage paper fluttered out of the Fannie and Freddie clouds, burying many of our oldest and most venerable institutions. Without their checkbooks keeping the market liquid and buying up excess supply, the market would likely have not existed.

But the bill didn't become law, for a simple reason: Democrats opposed it on a party-line vote in the committee, signaling that this would be a partisan issue. Republicans, tied in knots by the tight Democratic opposition, couldn't even get the Senate to vote on the matter.

That such a reckless political stand could have been taken by the Democrats was obscene even then. Wallison wrote at the time: ``It is a classic case of socializing the risk while privatizing the profit. The Democrats and the few Republicans who oppose portfolio limitations could not possibly do so if their constituents understood what they were doing.''

Mounds of Materials

Now that the collapse has occurred, the roadblock built by Senate Democrats in 2005 is unforgivable. Many who opposed the bill doubtlessly did so for honorable reasons. Fannie and Freddie provided mounds of materials defending their practices. Perhaps some found their propaganda convincing.

But we now know that many of the senators who protected Fannie and Freddie, including Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton and Christopher Dodd, have received mind-boggling levels of financial support from them over the years.

Throughout his political career, Obama has gotten more than $125,000 in campaign contributions from employees and political action committees of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, second only to Dodd, the Senate Banking Committee chairman, who received more than $165,000.

Clinton, the 12th-ranked recipient of Fannie and Freddie PAC and employee contributions, has received more than $75,000 from the two enterprises and their employees. The private profit found its way back to the senators who killed the fix.

There has been a lot of talk about who is to blame for this crisis. A look back at the story of 2005 makes the answer pretty clear.

Oh, and there is one little footnote to the story that's worth keeping in mind while Democrats point fingers between now and Nov. 4: Senator John McCain was one of the three cosponsors of S.190, the bill that would have averted this mess.



http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aSKSoiNbnQY0# (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aSKSoiNbnQY0#)


BTW if the young guy didn't submit a plan he wouldn't be considered.
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: sirs on September 22, 2008, 01:51:38 PM
BTW if the young guy didn't submit a plan he wouldn't be considered.

D'oh
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Michael Tee on September 22, 2008, 04:04:42 PM
If anybody came to me with a plan he'd whipped up on short notice to solve a complex problem, "the most serious since WWII," and told me he'd whipped it up in a week, I'd probably look over the plan, just in case, and then show him the door.  A week isn't long enough to investigate the problem, let alone find the solution.  And all the more so if a week ago the guy didn't even recognize there WAS a problem.
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: BT on September 22, 2008, 04:12:35 PM
Quote
If anybody came to me with a plan he'd whipped up on short notice to solve a complex problem, "the most serious since WWII," and told me he'd whipped it up in a week, I'd probably look over the plan, just in case, and then show him the door.  A week isn't long enough to investigate the problem, let alone find the solution.  And all the more so if a week ago the guy didn't even recognize there WAS a problem.

I would look over the plan, digest the gist of it, and have him go back and fine tune it if necessary.

The other guy i would tell that we would keep his resume on file, thank him for applying and tell him we would be in touch if necessary.

Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Michael Tee on September 22, 2008, 04:21:00 PM
<<I would look over the plan, digest the gist of it, and have him go back and fine tune it if necessary. >>

THAT'S assuming the plan came from a qualified individual with a clean record. 

When the plan comes from a 72-year-old crook, who's been caught once taking favours from finance-industry crooks, has advisors who got paid millions from the very firms whose collapse is part of the problem, did not even recognize a problem one week before and came up with three solutions in about the same number of days, what are the odds that you'd get a plan you'd want to use for anything other than wiping your own ass?
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: BT on September 22, 2008, 05:13:44 PM
Quote
When the plan comes from a 72-year-old crook, who's been caught once taking favours from finance-industry crooks, has advisors who got paid millions from the very firms whose collapse is part of the problem, did not even recognize a problem one week before and came up with three solutions in about the same number of days, what are the odds that you'd get a plan you'd want to use for anything other than wiping your own ass?

Considering the executive search committee had narrowed the search to two major candidates i would think your objections to candidate A's resume are immaterial.

And candidate B still hasn't produced a plan.

Tick tock

Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 22, 2008, 05:46:21 PM
When the plan comes from a 72-year-old crook, who's been caught once taking favours from finance-industry crooks, has advisors who got paid millions from the very firms whose collapse is part of the problem, did not even recognize a problem one week before and came up with three solutions in about the same number of days, what are the odds that you'd get a plan you'd want to use for anything other than wiping your own ass?

Considering the executive search committee had narrowed the search to two major candidates i would think your objections to candidate A's resume are immaterial.

And candidate B still hasn't produced a plan.

Tick tock

========================================
Tick tock?  There is no tick, nor tock here.

Neither McCain not Obama are going to have a plan accepted , because the solution is needed NOW and neither of them has the power to implement anything.

They can only comment on it. So far the comments are pretty unhelpful, but no one is asking for them. No one in power, at least.

Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Michael Tee on September 22, 2008, 05:48:41 PM
I guess for some reason - - obviously desperation - - Obama's failure to come up with a quick fix to this complex problem is portrayed as a stunning indictment of some kind, particularly when his opponent, who at first didn't even recognize a problem, has already come up with THREE different answers in the space of a week.

If one guy is totally out to lunch and the other one is reserving his judgment, do you go for the proven fool or for the one who doesn't panic and rush in with solutions that he doesn't have?

Tick tock tick tock. . .
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: sirs on September 22, 2008, 06:10:01 PM
Just can't help with the continued out-of-context dren, can you?  Then again, ends justify the means in lunatic left land
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 22, 2008, 06:27:39 PM
What "out of context dren?"

Any rescue plan is going to be (a)very complicated, as this is a complicated mess, and (b) essentially incomprehensible to the average joe, who will be soundly slumbering after the first five minutes. Add to this that Obama has no power to implement any plan now, and some plan needs to be implemented before the election.

Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: sirs on September 22, 2008, 09:31:03 PM
You got the latter statement partially correct.  It's the completely taking out of context what McCain was referring to in "fundamentals are strong".  Both he and Palin have made it abundantly clear the reference is with the American people that run the economy, they are fundamentally strong, they have tremendous resolve, when working together they can pull us out of any mess we might be in, economically.  But boy oh boy, is the left ready to throw the baby out the window, when it comes to pushing false premices 

BTW, Biden made in more boneheaded rhetorts, as of late?  Oblather demonstrate how much worse he is with economics?  Or is he sticking with the AWOL tactic?
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Michael Tee on September 22, 2008, 09:55:08 PM
<<Both he and Palin have made it abundantly clear the reference is with the American people that run the economy, they are fundamentally strong, they have tremendous resolve, when working together they can pull us out of any mess we might be in, economically. >>

ROTFLMFAO.  THAT'S what he meant, is it?  Funny how his original words gave no clue of it.  Not even a  hint. Funny how his economic mentor, Phil Gramm, who also denied any fundamental economic problems, went even further than Insane himself, labeling the American people a "nation of whiners" for even mentioning their economic woes.  Funny how the day after he told us how strong the fundamentals of the economy were, Insane said he'd fire the chairman of the SEC, even though the President has no power to do so.  Oh, he's IN TOUCH, alright.  He's REALLY in touch.  This is the guy you want for your President.  He really knows how to take care of the store for you.

Usually when a person is quoted out of context, the corrections are printed to show the context in which the words were spoken.  Then the reader can judge for himself or herself in what context the words were spoken and whether or not the meaning of the words changes when put in the larger context.  But we don't see that here, and there's a reason for it.  You could publish whatever else Insane was saying at the time, every word of it, and you wouldn't get a clue that he meant anything other than what he said at the time, "The fundamentals of the economy are strong."  Period.

How this wizened little jerk and his anguished handlers must have scrambled, the morning after, to find SOME meaning, ANY meaning, for his monumentally dumb and unfortunate words, other than their plain and simple meaning.  ANYTHING.  Maybe they could be twisted to mean, "The principles of Obama's Muslim faith are strong . . ."  Nope.  "Obama's hatred of America and its people  is strongly . . . ."  Nope.  Finally they settled on "the American worker is strong," never mind that the American worker was never mentioned . . .   Oy vey.

You know that this guy's gonna lose it when he has to run away even faster from his own words than he does from his own President.  This guy has "LOSER" plastered all over his lying little weasel-eyed face and the bimbo at his side ain't gonna help him none, regardless of HOW MANY disgruntled Hillary supporters are gonna drag their treasonous little asses over to his side.  They were worthless to Hillary and they'll be just as worthless to Insane.
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: BT on September 23, 2008, 12:09:41 AM
McCain has shown he can adapt to changing conditions on the ground.

Obama is still waiting for his committee to get back to him.

Pitiful
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: sirs on September 23, 2008, 12:55:50 AM
<<Both he and Palin have made it abundantly clear the reference is with the American people that run the economy, they are fundamentally strong, they have tremendous resolve, when working together they can pull us out of any mess we might be in, economically. >>

ROTFLMFAO.  THAT'S what he meant, is it?  Funny how his original words gave no clue of it.  

Funny how he and Palin have explained it over and over again, since the out of context train went downhill.  Yes, I realize it doesn't fit the neat little "stick a fork in him, he's done" proclaimation, becuase, it's so much the better to try and convince folks he has no clue, completely out there, no sense what-so-ever.  But if it's actually what the original intentions of the comments are, well....that's alot harder to make such a case.  Naaaa, let's just keep taking his words completely out of context, and hope the rest of the electorate is dumb enough to believe it, if that lie is repeated often enough


Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Michael Tee on September 23, 2008, 01:20:09 AM
<<Funny how he and Palin have explained it over and over again, since the out of context train went downhill.  >>

Yeah, and funny too how the explanation (1) came AFTER it became apparent how fucking stupid the comments were and (2) was completely at variance with anything else he was saying at the time.

To try to morph his original comment on the economy into a comment on the American worker when  nobody had even mentioned the American worker is just desperate and pathetic.


<<Yes, I realize it doesn't fit the neat little "stick a fork in him, he's done" proclaimation, becuase, it's so much the better to try and convince folks he has no clue, completely out there, no sense what-so-ever.>>

Are you kidding or what?  NOBODY has to convince anybody, because it's just so fucking obvious the guy has no clue.   It isn't just "the fundamentals of the economy are strong" turning into "this is the most serious crisis since WWII," hilarious though that may be.  It's EVERYTHING about this pathetic schmuck, like the flip-flop from Monday to Tuesday that he's against the bail-out and then he's for the bail-out, that he'd fire the chairman of the SEC and then he finds out the President can't do that.   I mean STARTING from the fact of this guy graduating fifth from the bottom of an 800-man class and THEN reading through all of these gaffes, HOW MUCH PROOF do you actually need that this guy is a fucking moron?  I get the feeling that another three gaffes and then another three STILL wouldn't convince you that there was anything fundamentally wrong with McCain.

<<But if it's actually what the original intentions of the comments are, well....that's alot harder to make such a case.  >>

Don't you understand the guy is just lying?  That WASN'T the original intentions of the comments because the American worker wasn't even on the fucking radar screen, nobody was referring to the American worker directly or indirectly, and the comment was  "The fundamentals of our economy are strong."  How could that POSSIBLY be taken to mean "the American worker is strong?"  Where is there any evidence that this discussion IN ANY WAY concerned the American worker?  He's just trying to re-write what he actually said.  NOBODY is stupid enough to believe that he didn't mean it, he meant something entirely different.

<<Naaaa, let's just keep taking his words completely out of context, and hope the rest of the electorate is dumb enough to believe it, if that lie is repeated often enough>>

Well, if the words were taken out of context, show us a context in which those words were uttered that demonstrates they were meant to refer to the American worker.  Do you even know what "context" and "out of context" mean?  It means they don't fit in with the rest of the conversation - - if the whole conversation was about the price of apples in Spain, and he says something about the price of apples in Hong Kong, you can argue that the remark was out of context, he MEANT to say Spain, not Hong Kong.  But you can't show one God-damn thing about the context of that remark to indicate it was taken out of context.

In other words, you can parrot the words "out of context" but you can't make them MEAN anything because you can't show ANY context that would give those words a different meaning. 

All that you or Insane can demonstrate is that the next day, when he realized  how stupid his words were, he tried to convince people that he had really meant something entirely different from what he had said. 
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: sirs on September 23, 2008, 02:20:52 AM
Actually, all that's being demonstrated is the transparency & desperation of your attacks, be they on McCain, Palin, myself, or anyone else that doesn't agree with you.  You have this absolute need to take a person's 1st quote, take it completely out of context, then proclaim, after processing it thru your twisted Bush is evil, McCain is evil, American military is evil, rant machine, procliam THIS is what so & so meant, and you can forget any futher clarification, Tee has spoken, and it is what it is.
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: Michael Tee on September 23, 2008, 12:08:35 PM
<<You have this absolute need to take a person's 1st quote, take it completely out of context . . . >>

I have asked you, probably three or four times by now, if I took the words out of context, SHOW ME THE CONTEXT in which the words were spoken, that would give them a different meaning than the totally plain and obvious meaning they have:  "The fundamentals of our economy are strong."

The words are plain and unambiguous.  There is NO WAY that they can be misunderstood.  Perhaps they were taken out of context.  OK - - SO SHOW US THE CONTEXT in which they were spoken.  Show us what words led up to those words.  Show us what words follow them.  Explain how the words spoken before and/or after those words (the context) give those words a different meaning.

You have failed each and every time I asked you to give us the context of the words.  Yet without giving any context at all, you continue to insist that the words were taken out of context.  sirs, you are just making yourself look ridiculous. 



<< . . .then proclaim, after processing it thru your twisted Bush is evil, McCain is evil, American military is evil, rant machine, procliam THIS is what so & so meant>>

No, sirs, I don't "proclaim" what the words meant.  That's your usual right-wing bullshit mind at work again, thinking that words can mean whatever you say they mean.  They can't.  Words DO have meaning, and you can't change history simply by claiming that words mean something else whenever you want to change what you or McCain has said.

"The fundamentals of our economy are strong" mean what they say, and I have absolutely no power to "proclaim" what they mean.  Neither do you and neither does John McCain.  Only in the Bizarro World of right-wing fantasy can you say one thing today and the very next day "proclaim" that your words of yesterday mean something entirely different today and in fact meant something entirely different yesterday.  It doesn't work that way and you should know that by now.


<< . . .  and you can forget any futher clarification>>

Clarification?  What clarification?  There was nothing unclear in what McCain said.  Words mean what they say.  "The fundamentals of our economy" mean "the fundamentals of our economy."  "The American worker" means "the American worker."  The one does not mean the other.  Not by any stretch of the imagination, not even McCain's, not even sirs'.

Your increasingly frantic, desperate and may I say frankly,ridiculous attempts to erase McCain's words from the record are starting to look like an old Joey Bishop comedy routine.  Joey Bishop's wife comes home unexpectedly one day to find Joey and some babe in their underwear under the covers in bed.  The wife starts yelling, "You bum!  You bastard! (whatever they permitted on TV at the time) "How can you do this to me?"  And all the time she's yelling non-stop, Joey and the babe don't say a word.  They jump out of bed immediately, pull their clothes on, make the bed perfectly, silently, all at top speed and the babe grabs her handbag and briskly walks out the bedroom door, and then Joey turns to the wife with this air of injured innocence and says, "What?  Whaddaya yellin for?  Whatsamadder?"

Well that's TV comedy.  In the real world, you can't undo something that was done and recorded.  McCain said what he said.  It meant what it meant.  All this "taken out of context" crap is just that - - crap.  You haven't shown any context it was taken out of that would have given it any different meaning.  You didn't even bother to show the context, because, obviously, it would have changed nothing.

I can say today, "America should be invaded by giant cockroaches and eaten up" and then say tomorrow that I MEANT to say "America has a cockroach problem" but that would be one big fucking lie, fooling nobody.  Same with McCain - - sure he SAYS he meant something totally different now from what he actually said then.  But that's just one big fucking lie, fooling nobody.  (Well, not nobody, obviously he's still got YOU fooled, but fooling ALMOST nobody, if what the polls indicate are accurate.)

<<Tee has spoken, and it is what it is.>>

Ahh, if only THAT were your problem, sirs.  Your problem is that MCCAIN has spoken and said what he said.  And everyone heard him.  And everyone (almost) knows exactly what the old fool meant.
Title: Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
Post by: sirs on September 23, 2008, 01:18:28 PM
Sorry if the follow-up clarifications completely destroy your continued lie on what YOU have concluded McCain was supposed to mean, and damn any follow-up which makes it even clearer, how wrong you were.  Then again, leftist SOP....Repeat that lie enough, and pray that the electorate is too dumb to realize it