For what it is worth

[_JS]

So in other words, Js needs to see a whole hell of alot more death and maiming at the hands of Islamofascist terrorists, before he'll take note.  Got it

That is not what I said at all. This is not worth discussing if you wish to use such tactics. If you use hyperbole in your speech, then get called on it, don't get hyper-defensive Sirs. The evidence would consist of some sresearch indicating that al-Qaeda's views are becoming more acceptable to the mainstream of Islam. You know this of course, but instead you choose to write this filth about me.

Yea, all those videos of thousands upon thousands of Muslims, jumping up and down with pictures of Usama each time the U.S. is attacked in some way, is purely my imagination.  Got it

Again you made an exaggerated statement and cannot back it up with evidence. So what is your response? Emotional attack. Unimpressive Sirs. I will give you credit that most of what I've seen from the very extremist side of the war on terror (interesting acronym) is emotional.

Wrong, I have provided you references to Bin Laden's top aides, making precisely that goal

There has been some proof, you're correct and I apologise.

been there, done that.  Feel free to keep that head firmly afixed to the sand

No there has not. Other than some nutters who believe in restoring a caliphate that never really existed the way they believe it did. You have yet to show that more Muslims are adopting these beliefs. You have yet to show that they view Osama as a messianic figure. Mostly you've shown a highly emotionally charged litany of hyperbole, mixed with one kernal of truth.

Well, since you are completely misrepresenting my reference, best stop here, before I get a migraine

Then by all means explain why the growth of Islam as a religion and France's demographics make a difference in terrorism. If I have misrepresented your argument, then I apologise.

[Michael Tee]

<<Don't see why the rest of the middle east is further away than Egypt, Taiwan, and South Korea.>>

This is bullshit.  Unless you can demonstrate that most of the Arabs' food came from the U.S. at substantially below market prices, plane's comment about "feeding them" is just total nonsense.  Makes about as much sense as them claiming to have fuelled most of the world's motor transport.

[Amianthus]

This is bullshit.  Unless you can demonstrate that most of the Arabs' food came from the U.S. at substantially below market prices, plane's comment about "feeding them" is just total nonsense.  Makes about as much sense as them claiming to have fuelled most of the world's motor transport.

Actually, Plane made no comments about "feeding them". He said that we sold them food below market cost, which is a true statement. Now you're adding conditions when I proved that we do indeed sell food to the middle east after your claim that they wouldn't buy from us, they'd go to the Europeans.

Egypt's grain supply is 40% import (so nearly half of their staples are imported). The US Government subsidizes those grain shipments, so they are sold at below market value. The US is Egypt's major supplier for grain shipments, which doesn't mean that they don't buy elsewhere, only that they buy more from us than anyone else.

[Michael Tee]

Egypt's a special case.  The U.S. gives them $3 billion a year, basically paying their dictator to torture and kill all opposition and toe the U.S. line on foreign policy.  Only you and plane could interpret this as an act of "friendship."

[Amianthus]

Egypt's a special case.

We subsidize grain shipments (and other ag products, such as poultry, etc) throughout the middle east. Egypt is our largest customer in the region, but it's not the only one. Egypt is also one of the larger (in terms of population) countries in the region, which is why it's a large customer.

Egypt's not "special", though I would understand why you would want to think so.

[Plane]

I don't have the time at this moment Plane, but if you get a chance to google (It was either Zarkawi or Zahari or one of the other prominent Usama leaders) who actually referred to their goal of a Caliphate, it'd be appreciated.  If you come across it, please feel free to post it.  Otherwise, I'll take a gander sometime this evening, when I have more time  

Check out a web search on the term "Qutbe".  On the sites I could find where Musli were discussiongth Philosophy of Osama Bin Laden , they were prone to identify him as a "Qutbe" or a person who agrees with the philosopher Sayyid Qutb.  Some Whahabbi are insulted to have Osama described as Whahabbi.

To me this seems like a case of a militant philosopy baseing its success on its appeal and its appeal on its success.

http://www.thewahhabimyth.com/qutb2.htm
""And it was in this period that the books of the martyr, Sayyid Qutb appeared, the books that represented his final thoughts (in ideology, before his death). Those which justified the takfir (excommunication) of (whole) societies… the breaking of all sentimental attachments to society, breaking off ties with others, and the announcement of a destructive jihad against the whole of mankind."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qutbism

Qutbism (also Kotebism, Qutbiyya, or Qutbiyyah) is the radical strain of Islamic ideology and activism, based on the thought and writings of Sayyid Qutb, a celebrated Islamist and former leading member of the Muslim Brotherhood who was executed in 1966. Qutbee or Qutbi (also Qutbists) are followers of these ideals. These terms originated from, and are mainly used by opponents of the Muslim Brotherhood in general and Qutb in particular, and by Muslims who seek to distance themselves from the activities of militant groups based on or influenced by Qutbism.

Qutbism has gained notoriety from its association with jihadi extremists like Osama bin Laden. According to some observers, jihadi extremists “cite Sayyid Qutb repeatedly and consider themselves his intellectual descendants


The main tenet of Qutbist ideology is that the Muslim community (or the Muslim community outside of a vanguard fighting to reestablish it) "has been extinct for a few centuries" [2] having reverted to Godless ignorance (Jahiliyya), and must be re-conquered for Islam.

Qutb outlined his ideas in his book Ma'alim fi-l-Tariq (aka Milestones). Other important principles of Qutbism include

adherence to Sharia as sacred law accessible to humans, without which Islam cannot exist
adherence to Sharia as a complete way of life that will bring not only justice, but complete freedom from servitude, peace, personal serenity, scientific discovery and other benefits;
avoidance of Western and non-Islamic "evil and corruption," including socialism and nationalism;
vigilance against Western and Jewish conspiracies against Islam
a two-pronged attack of 1) preaching to convert and 2) jihad to forcibly eliminate the "structures" of Jahiliyya.
the importance of offensive Jihad to eliminate Jahiliyya not only from the Islamic homeland but from the face of the earth.
Some, such as Dale C. Eikmeier, a strategic planner at the US Army War College, give a broader definition of Qutbism. Eikmeier calls it "a fusion of puritanical and intolerant Islamic orientations," that includes not only Qutb's ideas but those of Abul Ala Maududi, Hassan al Banna, and even Shia elements,

"to justify armed jihad in the advance of Islam, and other violent methods utilized by twentieth century militants. ... Qutbism advocates violence and justifies terrorism against non-Muslims and apostates in an effort to bring about the reign of God. Others, i.e., Ayman Al-Zawahiri, Abdullah Azzam, and Osama bin Laden built terrorist organizations based on the principles of Qutbism and turned the ideology of Islamic-Fascism into a global action plan."[3]

[Michael Tee]

<<Egypt's not "special", though I would understand why you would want to think so.>>

So then you understand $3 billion, eh?  I thought you would.  EVERYBODY understands three billion dollars.  Yearly.

[Amianthus]

So then you understand $3 billion, eh?  I thought you would.  EVERYBODY understands three billion dollars.  Yearly.

I also understand the $3billion is a drop in the bucket.

Doesn't contradict the statement that Plane made; the US sells large amounts of food to nearly every Arab country, and at below market rates.

[Michael Tee]

$3 billion a year is about 1% of Egyptian GDP.
http://www.airninja.com/worldfacts/countries/Egypt/gdp.htm

I'm sure they find a way to put the "drop" to good use.  Whatever the U.S. does with its wheat I'm sure owes a lot more to domestic U.S. politics in the farm belt than to any genuine desire to help the Arab masses.

And a vague statement that "the US sells large amounts of food to nearly every Arab country, and at below market rates" is virtually meaningless without specifics.  I'm sure that whatever they did doesnt' even begin to compensate for the billions stolen in oil revenues through sweetheart deals with corrupt puppet governments and I'm just as certain that few if any Arabs are taken in by the type of sophistry that you and plane are trying to pull off.

[Amianthus]

And a vague statement that "the US sells large amounts of food to nearly every Arab country, and at below market rates" is virtually meaningless without specifics.

Hey, you're vague all the time.

Even Iran imports 40% of it's grains, and a big chunk of that comes from the US. They import rice from the US, for cryin' out loud. Jordan imports >90% of it's grains, much of that from America. Most of the rest of the middle east imports between 30% and 60% of it's grains, and a large chunk of each country's imports come from the US, and another large chunk comes from Canada.

Between the US and Canada, North America pretty much feeds the world. I think something like 35-40% of the world's supply of grains are grown in North America. We export to regions in Asia that are considered breadbaskets. Our exports are dropping as we convert more of our surplus into alcohol and biodiesel, but we still got a lot of land that could be cultivated, with even more becoming available (mostly in Canada) due to global warming.

The current US subsidies to many countries on wheat amount to about $50 / ton, with similar numbers for corn and other grains. This number offsets the market price, so US farmers sell a ton of wheat to Egypt for $50 below market.

[sirs]

So in other words, Js needs to see a whole hell of alot more death and maiming at the hands of Islamofascist terrorists, before he'll take note.  Got it

That is not what I said at all. This is not worth discussing if you wish to use such tactics. If you use hyperbole in your speech, then get called on it, don't get hyper-defensive Sirs. The evidence would consist of some sresearch indicating that al-Qaeda's views are becoming more acceptable to the mainstream of Islam. You know this of course, but instead you choose to write this filth about me.

Missing the point and the "evidence" once again.  This is not about you personally Js.  Talk about getting defensive.  This is about the mindset you (and like minds) appear to have adopted that basically will require such an increase in death in order to come around to to the threat militant Islam is becoming.

Yea, all those videos of thousands upon thousands of Muslims, jumping up and down with pictures of Usama each time the U.S. is attacked in some way, is purely my imagination.  Got it

Again you made an exaggerated statement and cannot back it up with evidence. So what is your response? Emotional attack. Unimpressive Sirs.

And yet again, dismissing the overwhelming video evidence, as simply my emotions run amuck.

Other than some nutters who believe in restoring a caliphate that never really existed the way they believe it did. You have yet to show that more Muslims are adopting these beliefs. You have yet to show that they view Osama as a messianic figure. Mostly you've shown a highly emotionally charged litany of hyperbole, mixed with one kernal of truth.

Other than some nutters??  See, this is precisely my point.  These are the leaders of a global organization.  Yea, they're nutcases, but they have a massive following.  You yourself, and MIss Henny have gone out of your way, numerous times to rationalize why moderate Muslims, and leaders of Muslim countries can't come out and openly denounce such "nutters".  What I've referenced is what everyone has had a chance to see for themselves, widespread jubilation following 911, and other attacks on the U.S., with precisious little condemnation by the Muslim community.  You can keep calling video evidence as simple "hyperbole", and at this point I have no expectation that you'll ever come to grips with the threat militant Islam is.....until of course we have a few more 911's.  At which time I'll likely see some more rationalization efforts of just more nutters, or worse, that the U.S. brought this on themselves, with their egregious posture towards Muslims.  In any case, you keep that head planted, I'll endeavor to keep my that much more diligent to cover for you

Well, since you are completely misrepresenting my reference, best stop here, before I get a migraine

Then by all means explain why the growth of Islam as a religion and France's demographics make a difference in terrorism. If I have misrepresented your argument, then I apologise.

A) it's not specific to France, and B) it's simple #'s, since militant Islam has a religious foundation to its followers.  Growth of Islam produces a larger pool of those that could gravitate towards the mutated message militant Islam inspires.  ESPECIALLY when it's not being denounced or condemned by moderate Muslims or those same Muslim leaders refererenced earlier

[Michael Tee]

<<The current US subsidies to many countries on wheat amount to about $50 / ton, with similar numbers for corn and other grains. This number offsets the market price, so US farmers sell a ton of wheat to Egypt for $50 below market.>>

I believe this all can be explained by domestic politics and economics.  The U.S. government probaby subsidizes its farmers in the same general kind of way that Canada subsidizes its farmers.  They all sell their wheat to a Wheat Board - - a government wheat-buying monopoly and then the government makes contracts with foreign countries.  I'm guessing they don't get their money back, i.e. they pay the farmers more for the wheat than they'll net on the sale of it.  But that keeps the farm bloc happy - -family farms stay in business, uneconomical as it may be, and nobody turns the wheatfields into subdivisions, so we stay self-sufficient in food.  If they sell wheat to some country of dirt-poor schleppers for less than world market prices, they do it to get some kind of advantage out of them, for example, mining concessions or maybe just domestic votes from people who immigrated here from the country that's getting the under-priced wheat.  And in some cases, maybe it's just pure charity - - a country may be so poor and fucked up that it's practically criminal to ask for their money in return for food.

My only point that this bullshit about "we feed 'em" taken as some sign of benevolence is pretty far-fetched.  It's hard to attribute such benevolence to a country which makes war at the drop of a hat, killing over half a million people in its latest criminal venture (and two million in Viet Nam.)  If you want to explain "feeding" other countries, I'd say that disinterested benevolence is the LEAST likely explanation for it.

[Amianthus]

Regardless of your opinion on the motives, Plane's comment continues to stand: the US sells Arab countries food at below market prices.

Plane ascribed no motive to it.

[Michael Tee]

<<Regardless of your opinion on the motives, Plane's comment continues to stand: the US sells Arab countries food at below market prices.>>

Sure.  It's a factoid.

<<Plane ascribed no motive to it.>>

He certainly did.  That remark wasn't made in a vacuum.  Put in context, it was an answer to a previous statement that the U.S. was hated for its misdeeds in the Arab world.  In context, plane was saying, "But they're wrong to hate us.  Look at the good we do for them."

[Amianthus]

In context, plane was saying, "But they're wrong to hate us.  Look at the good we do for them."

Actually, he said that he would like the Arabs to treat us the same way.