DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Amianthus on December 04, 2006, 10:46:53 AM
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Monday, December 04, 2006
CARACAS, Venezuela (CNN) -- Outspoken leftist Hugo Chavez claimed victory in his bid for a new term as Venezuela's president Sunday after the bulk of returns showed him leading challenger Manuel Rosales by a wide margin.
With 78 percent of the votes counted, the National Electoral Council reported Chavez leading Rosales by a margin of 61 percent to 38 percent. Rosales, a provincial governor from the country's oil patch, conceded defeat late Sunday but disputed the margin of his loss.
Chavez thanked supporters gathered outside Miraflores Palace for the win. He also thanked his opponents and urged them to join him in continuing his efforts to remake the country in his self-styled socialist revolution. An outspoken opponent of U.S. policies in Latin America, Chavez was
seeking a second full term as leader of oil-rich Venezuela. He was first elected in 1998, re-elected under a new constitution in 2000 and survived a recall attempt by opponents in 2004.
Article (http://www.cnn.com/POLITICS/blogs/politicalticker/2006/12/chavez-claims-victory-in-venezuela.html)
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Let's hope it spreads to all of South America, up through Mexico and into America.
We'll be better off for it.
"Long live the socialist revolution! Destiny has been written," Chavez shouted to thousands of flag-waving supporters wearing red shirts and braving a pouring rain. "That new era has begun," he said, raising a hand in the air. "We have shown that Venezuela is red! ... No one should fear socialism ... Socialism is human. Socialism is love," Chavez said. "Down with imperialism! We need a new world!"
Viva Chavez!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061204/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_election (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061204/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_election)
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Just as Fidel seems to be fading from the scene. Keep that candle burnin', Hugo!!!
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Chavez could be a useful figure on the world scene, subject, of course, to the political will of his constituents. I have long maintained that socialism, shorn of its totalitarian tendencies and practiced with a reality-based set of guiding eyes, has much to offer the world. Even yet, I hold out the hope that, run right, it can be a viable system emphasizing a SALUTARY (but not dysfunctional or counterproductive) equity among people, or otherwise to provide the most effective and stimulating critique of capitalism that the world can produce, and sorely needs. Above all, oil-rich Chavez must be judged on how he treats his own people, and, necessarily, how he cozies up to the world's leaders and practices geo-politics. We critics of Chavez must insist on his unwavering commitment to genuine peace while at the same time he he issues his public critiques of the injustices that must be rectified.
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Chavez could be a useful figure on the world scene, subject, of course, to the political will of his constituents. I have long maintained that socialism, shorn of its totalitarian tendencies and practiced with a reality-based set of guiding eyes, has much to offer the world. Even yet, I hold out the hope that, run right, it can be a viable system emphasizing a SALUTARY (but not dysfunctional or counterproductive) equity among people, or otherwise to provide the most effective and stimulating critique of capitalism that the world can produce, and sorely needs. Above all, oil-rich Chavez must be judged on how he treats his own people, and, necessarily, how he cozies up to the world's leaders and practices geo-politics. We critics of Chavez must insist on his unwavering commitment to genuine peace while at the same time he he issues his public critiques of the injustices that must be rectified.
I can concur with that, domer.
My hope is that he continues his socialist ideals and doesn't fall into the trap of totalitarian rule that so often blinds those who allege they support communism or socialism. When they adopt that government of secrecy and total control, then socialism no longer exists in that country and fascism is now in control.
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Well I see his usefullness as a demonstrator of Socialism.
We have not had quite enough Socialist failures for people to have lost faith in it yet.
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Well I see his usefullness as a demonstrator of Socialism. We have not had quite enough Socialist failures for people to have lost faith in it yet.
Great cup half-full approach, Plane ;)
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The very best that a capitalist system has done in a Hispanic country is Puerto Rico, where half the populartion has decided to live outside the country. In Puerto Rico, the standard of living is far, far below that of Mississippi. A higher percentage of Puerto Ricans live in the US than Cubans.
Spain has had a mildly Socialist government since the death of Franco in 1977, and has enjoyed the fastest economic growth not due to an oil boom in the history of Hispanic countries.
Venezuela has one of the most unequal distributions of income on the planet. The oil wealth before Chavez went to only the upper 2% or so of the population. Venezuela is one of the most fertile places on Earth, but it imports something like 80% of its food, because the best cropland belongs to a few land barons who prefer to use it to grow beef for Mickey D.
Chávez is what happens when you have a democracy and extreme inequality. If not for ilegal immigration to the US, Mexico would have become a leftist state long ago. Cuahtémoc Cárdenas actually beat Salinas there in 1988, but the PRI stole the election.
Chávez has done more to end inequality than anyone else who has led Venezuela, and has the best chance of succeeding, because the oil wealth will enable a better shot at actual land reform. The hardest chore will be turning unemployed urban dwellers into successful farmers. This will be easier now than ever before, thanks to cheap Chinese generators and solar power to make life on the land more desireable.
Bolivia has huge gas reserves, and if they use modern methods to turn gas into electricity and gasoline and diesel fuel, it could raise the standard of living there greatly.
The US and its corporations can be counted on to subvert leftist regimes in Latin America as much as it can, especially if we have the misfortune to continue with clowns like Juniorbush and Cheney running things.
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The very best that a capitalist system has done in a Hispanic country is Puerto Rico, where half the populartion has decided to live outside the country. In Puerto Rico, the standard of living is far, far below that of Mississippi. A higher percentage of Puerto Ricans live in the US than Cubans.
Spain has had a mildly Socialist government since the death of Franco in 1977, and has enjoyed the fastest economic growth not due to an oil boom in the history of Hispanic countries.
Venezuela has one of the most unequal distributions of income on the planet. The oil wealth before Chavez went to only the upper 2% or so of the population. Venezuela is one of the most fertile places on Earth, but it imports something like 80% of its food, because the best cropland belongs to a few land barons who prefer to use it to grow beef for Mickey D.
Chávez is what happens when you have a democracy and extreme inequality. If not for ilegal immigration to the US, Mexico would have become a leftist state long ago. Cuahtémoc Cárdenas actually beat Salinas there in 1988, but the PRI stole the election.
Chávez has done more to end inequality than anyone else who has led Venezuela, and has the best chance of succeeding, because the oil wealth will enable a better shot at actual land reform. The hardest chore will be turning unemployed urban dwellers into successful farmers. This will be easier now than ever before, thanks to cheap Chinese generators and solar power to make life on the land more desireable.
Bolivia has huge gas reserves, and if they use modern methods to turn gas into electricity and gasoline and diesel fuel, it could raise the standard of living there greatly.
The US and its corporations can be counted on to subvert leftist regimes in Latin America as much as it can, especially if we have the misfortune to continue with clowns like Juniorbush and Cheney running things.
Mildly Socialist is like mildly poisoned , you can still get by if you don't need to get too much done.
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Mildly Socialist is like mildly poisoned , you can still get by if you don't need to get too much done.
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Bullshit.
Spain has often had a higher economic growth rate than the US, and certainly has far fewer resources. There is a connection between the culture and the system of government that ideologues, especially ratwing ideologues deliberately ignore.
Capitalism has its own poisons: advertising schlock and unhealthy foods and practices, such as smoking are just a few.
If not for the calming effects of Socialism, such as the one-child policy and 'barefoot doctor' medical care, China would have blown apart in the current economic expansion boom. China has developed faster in the past 10 years than any society in history, with the exception of oil or mineral booms in small countries.
China's culture (already collectivist in inclination before Mao) is far better adapted top Socialism than the Russian and other Soviet cultures were. If it had not been, China would have abandoned Socialism, much to its determent, years ago.
Mao was a unifying force, but a fool in many aspects, such as the Greap Leap Forward (which was actually a huge leap backward) and the Cultural Revolution.
Still, both of these erroneous movements created their own antitheses, which are partly what is driving the current expansion.
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Spain has often had a higher economic growth rate than the US,
What are you using for measurement?
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What are you using for measurement?
GDP between 1977 and the present.
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GDP between 1977 and the present.
And the increases you're comparing are based on what? Per capita? Percent?
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whatever you wish.
look it up if you don't believe me.
I read it in an Economist article and the Miami Herald.
If I were likely to ever be appointed a finance minister, I would have taken notes.
I have no such plans, so I didn't.
I have been to Spain (Madrid and Barcelona). It's modern, it's clean, the slums in Madrid are not so bad as those in Miami. At least they are neater.
It is immeasureably better than Mexico, All of Central America but Costa Rica, the DR and Buenos Aires.
Costa Rica is much nicer than the rest, but there are still some blighted areas in San Jose. I have not seen the rest of CR extensively.
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look it up if you don't believe me.
The numbers I got from the 80s and 90s don't bear up your claim. The US GDP rose over 6% in most of those years, while Spain's rose between 2.5% and 5%. Per capita growth was also lower than the US. Both the US and Spain are growing slower in the 2000s, Spain continues about 2.5%, the US is slighty higher at about 2.7%.
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look it up if you don't believe me.
The numbers I got from the 80s and 90s don't bear up your claim. The US GDP rose over 6% in most of those years, while Spain's rose between 2.5% and 5%. Per capita growth was also lower than the US. Both the US and Spain are growing slower in the 2000s, Spain continues about 2.5%, the US is slighty higher at about 2.7%.
Ouch.....that had to hurt
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The US is not a Hispanic country, of course.
The GDP data dfoes not actually indicate how equitable the income distribution is, either.
In the US it has been skewed greatly toward the wealthiest individuals.
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The US is not a Hispanic country, of course.
Never said it was; you brought up the comparison, not I.
The GDP data dfoes not actually indicate how equitable the income distribution is, either.
Never said it was; you claimed that data used to show the greater growth was GDP, not I.
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(http://media.salemwebnetwork.com/TownHall/Car/b/PN120606.jpg)
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The US is not a Hispanic country, of course.
Never said it was; you brought up the comparison, not I.
The GDP data dfoes not actually indicate how equitable the income distribution is, either.
Never said it was; you claimed that data used to show the greater growth was GDP, not I.
OUCH....Xo getting beat up one side, then the other. That's gotta hurt
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What a dumbass cartoon.
Castro has never submitted to any elections, while Chavez has defeated the opposition three times now. He doesn't smoke cigars, and I am pretty sure that there are very few that actually smoke stogies with a pirates skull and bones on the band.
Surely you can find something less silly.
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Well I see his usefullness as a demonstrator of Socialism. We have not had quite enough Socialist failures for people to have lost faith in it yet.
I would say that Sweden and Norway are very succesful demonstrations of socialist systems. Or the United Kingdom would be another excellent example.
When a disaster hits Norway there would not be a massive underclass left behind with a comfortable class of population writing letters to the editor that blame those left behind for being a "culture of dependents."
Venezuela, Ecuador, Boliva, Chile, and Nicaragua are reacting to years of very one sided treatment and blatantly racist policies as will Mexico and other nations. Is CHavez the mouthpiece for Latin American Socialism? Meh, I rather doubt it. I tend to think he is more bluster than anything. He is doing some good for the poor in Venezuela and he pisses off the wealthy and the United States because of the oil and the fact that he isn't a European/Spanish member of the typical ruling class.
I rather think Chile's Michelle Bachelet, much quieter and calmer than Chavez is a far superior leader. She is a socialist whose family was thrown to exile by Pinochet and his "Chicago Boys." She is a surgeon and even studied at Karl Marx University in the DDR (studied German) during her exile. She is everything Milton Friedman and Augusto Pinochet's authoritarian, barbarian political economy loathes. She has worked to restructure Chile's social security system and health care system, while continuing great trade relations for the benefit of the people.
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Well I see his usefullness as a demonstrator of Socialism.
We have not had quite enough Socialist failures for people to have lost faith in it yet.
How odd that I see religion in the same light. Perhaps the same can be said of, say, christianity as can be said of socialism. It works really well, but there are people who come along and use it for the wrong purposes or hold it up as a mask for what they are really doing.
Socialism works really well in all the countries that have social medicine. Remember the words of our blessed lord, Howard Dean: "What we ought to be demanding as Democrats, is what Harry Truman put in the 1948 Democratic Party platform: health insurance that covers everybody, just like they have in Germany, France, Costa Rica, Japan, Ireland, and Italy! Every single industrialized country on the face of the earth has health insurance for all of its people. Why can't we have what all those countries have?"
Socialism can be best described by the motto I chose for my film company. "Many hands make light work." If you're a capitalist pig, then you know that buying in volume can save you a lot of money. This is the idea behind single payer insurance. What's the problem?