Neanderthals

[Plane]

"So your claim that today's US army is the best-disciplined and least atrocity-committing of any army in history is pure HOGWASH."


I accept that it is hard to prove , but I did include the best sorces I could find.

During WWII there was about one court martial for every eight service members. This is a huge rate compared to the present rate but I can't claim that the diffence is entirely because of better behavior because there was a major change in the rules with the UCMJ which we didn't have in WWII.

But we are definaely talking about the same Army , Navy with the personell being the grandchildren of the previous generation.

Why do you think the present US Army is less couth ?

Is it the segregation it gave up? The women it allowed in?

You really can't blame it on Bush , FDR did nothing to discourage misbehaveior that Bush did not also do.

While I am accepting that I haven't proven my case with certainty , I assert that neither have you , the entire diffrence between the earlyer and the later being spin.

[Michael Tee]

<<You really can't blame it on Bush , FDR did nothing to discourage misbehaveior that Bush did not also do.>>

You GOTTA be kidding.  I must have referred to it in at least two or three posts - - FDR saw to it that those bastards who crossed over the line were EXECUTED for it.  Got it?  EXECUTED - - as in hung, strung up, terminated with extreme prejudice, removed from the situation for the foreseeable future.  Is there some part of EXECUTED that you do not understand?

[Plane]

<<You really can't blame it on Bush , FDR did nothing to discourage misbehaveior that Bush did not also do.>>

You GOTTA be kidding.  I must have referred to it in at least two or three posts - - FDR saw to it that those bastards who crossed over the line were EXECUTED for it.  Got it?  EXECUTED - - as in hung, strung up, terminated with extreme prejudice, removed from the situation for the foreseeable future.  Is there some part of EXECUTED that you do not understand?

Got a link for that?

If there were a lot of executions for mistreating prisoners , would that prove your point or mine?

[Michael Tee]

<<Got a link for that?>>

Nope, that just comes out of my vast storehouse of useless personal knowledge.

<<If there were a lot of executions for mistreating prisoners , would that prove your point or mine?>>

Actually, I think most if not all of the executions were for robbing, raping and/or killing civilians, not for mistreating prisoners.  Far as I know, in the European theatre of operations anyway, there was very little abuse of prisoners.  (Punching doesn't count - - they were Nazis, for Christ sake!)  I would think, given the passage of time and the number of men involved, any abuse comparable to Abu Ghraib or the secret torture chambers of the present day America, anything comparable would have come to light long before now if it had ever existed.

[Plane]

"(Punching doesn't count - - they were Nazis, for Christ sake!) "


This is the very core of the point I am intending to make.
Everything counts now , we are more sensitive, more prone to posicute , more likely to apprehend  , not less in any respect.

[domer]

List of individuals executed by the United States military
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The military of the United States has executed 135 people since 1916. The last execution was in 1961.

Contents [hide]
1 Crimes punishable
2 Sentencing and execution
3 Executions during World War II
4 See Also
5 Executions after World War II
6 USS Somers mutiny
7 References
 


[edit] Crimes punishable
Currently, under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, 14 offenses are punishable by death. Under the following sections of the UCMJ, the death penalty can be imposed at any time:

94 - Mutiny or sedition
99 - Misbehavior before the enemy
100 - Subordinate compelling surrender
101 - Improper use of countersign
102 - Forcing a safeguard
104 - Aiding the enemy
106 - Espionage
110 - Improper hazarding of vessel
118 - Murder
120 - Rape and carnal knowledge
Four provisions of the UCMJ carry a death sentence only if the crime is committed during times of war:

85 - Desertion
90 - Assaulting or willfully disobeying superior commissioned officer
92 - Failure to obey order or regulation
113 - Misbehavior of a sentinel or lookout

[edit] Sentencing and execution
Capital cases are tried in courts-martial before a panel of at least five military members. If the defendant is an enlisted man, he may opt for at least one third of the panel to also be of enlisted rank. The defendant cannot plead guilty to the charges. The panel must be unanimous in conviction, that the government has proven necessary aggravating factors, that the aggravating factors outweigh the mitigating factors, and that death is the only sentence applicable. All death sentences are automatically appealed first to the appropriate Court of Criminal Appeals for the military service, then to the United States Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces. The sentence must be personally confirmed by the President of the United States.

Death Row is located at the United States Disciplinary Barracks, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas and the method used is lethal injection. There are currently nine inmates on Leavenworth's Death Row, all of whom have been convicted of premeditated murder or felony murder.


[edit] Executions during World War II
This table is based on the handwritten list that was discovered at The Pentagon in December 2003. It was entitled "Executed Death Cases Before 1951" and the names and dates that have an Asterisk indicate that the original was only partly legible. It has been supplemented by these tables of U.S. Soldiers executed during World War II's European Theater and Pacific Theater. The offense in parentheses for some is where further information is available for the actual crime.

Executed person Date of execution Location Method
Rowe 17 October 1942   
David Cobb 12 March 1943 Shepton Mallet, England Hanged
Sykes 19 January 1943  Hanged
Brandon 26 January 1943  Hanged
Knapp 19 March 1943  Hanged
Charles H. Smith 25 June 1943 Shepton Mallet, England Hanged
Bohn July 1943*  Hanged
James E. Kendrick July 1943*  Hanged
Smith September 1943*  Hanged
Walter Beyer (P.O.W.) 1944*  Hanged
Arthur E. Davis 1944* European Theater 
Hans Demme (P.O.W.) 1944* Fort Leavenworth Hanged
James Hendricks 1944* European Theater 
Charles H. Jordan 1944* European Theater 
Jones 1944*  Hanged
Edward J. Leonski 1944  Hanged
Hans Schomer (P.O.W.) 1944* Fort Leavenworth Hanged
Willie Scholz (P.O.W.) 1944* Fort Leavenworth Hanged
Berthold Seidel (P.O.W.) 1944* Fort Leavenworth Hanged
Bell 31 January 1944  Hanged
John H. Waters 10 February 1944 Shepton Mallet, England Hanged
J. C. Leatherberry 16 March 1944 Shepton Mallet, England Hanged
George Green, Jr. May 26, 1944   
Wiley Harris 26 May 1944 Shepton Mallet, England Hanged
Alex F. Miranda 30 May 1944 Shepton Mallet, England Shot
Willie Johnson June 1944* European Theater 
Eliga Brinson & Willie Smith (double execution) 11 August 1944 Shepton Mallet, England Hanged
Watson 29 August 1944  Hanged
James W. Peoples 2 September 1944  Hanged
Beven 26 September 1944   
Paul Kluxdal October 1944* European Theater Hanged
Arthur T. Brown 2 October 1944 Milne Bay, New Guinea Hanged
Andrew Gibson 2 October 1944 Milne Bay, New Guinea Hanged
Leroy E. Greene 2 October 1944 Milne Bay, New Guinea Hanged
Charles A. Horn 2 October 1944 Milne Bay, New Guinea Hanged
Eugene A. Washington, Jr. 2 October 1944 Milne Bay, New Guinea Hanged
Lloyd L. White, Jr. 2 October 1944 Milne Bay, New Guinea Hanged
Madison Thomas 12 October 1944 Shepton Mallet, England Hanged
James B. Senders* 25 October 1944   
Ray W. Anderson 25 October 1944 European Theater 
Oscar N. Newman November 1944* European Theater 
Leo Valentine, Sr. November 1944* European Theater 
Willie Wimberly, Jr. 8 November 1944 European Theater 
Joseph Watson 8 November 1944 European Theater 
Aveline Fernandez 15 November 1944 Milne Bay, New Guinea Hanged
Richard Scott 18 November 1944 European Theater 
William D. Pennyfather 18 November 1944 European Theater 
Theron W. McGran 20 November 1944   
Benjamin Pygate* 28 November 1944 Shepton Mallet, England Shot
William E. Davis December 1944* European Theater 
Williams 18 December 1944  Hanged
John D. Cooper 1945* European Theater 
Harold Crabtree 1945* Milne Bay, New Guinea Hanged
Otis B. Crews 1945* European Theater 
William T. Curry 1945* Milne Bay, New Guinea Hanged
Erick Gauss (P.O.W.) 1945*  Hanged
Benjamin F. Hopper 1945* European Theater 
Rudolph Straub (P.O.W.) 1945*  Hanged
J. P. Wilson 1945* European Theater 
Waiter J. Baldwin January 1945* European Theater 
Augustine Guerra & Ernest L. Clarke (double execution) 8 January 1945 Shepton Mallet, England Hanged
Mervin Holden January 1945* European Theater 
Elwood J. Spencer January 1945* European Theater 
Davis 5 January 1945  Hanged
O'Conner 15 January 1945  Hanged
Aniceto Martinez 15 January 1945 Shepton Mallet, England Hanged
Arthur J. Ferrell 18 January 1945  Hanged
James W. Twiggs 22 January 1945 European Theater 
Samual Hawthorne 29 January 1945 Milne Bay, New Guinea Hanged
Eddie Slovik 31 January 1945 Sainte-Marie-aux-Mines Shot
William C. Downes February 1945* European Theater 
Waiters Yancy 10 February 1945 European Theater 
William Mack 15 February 1945 European Theater 
Amos Agee March 1945* European Theater 
Henry Baker March 1945* Milne Bay, New Guinea Hanged
Tommie Davidson March 1945* European Theater 
General L. Grant March 1945* European Theater 
John C. Smith March 1945* European Theater 
Frank Watson March 1945* European Theater 
Olins W. Williams 9 March 1945 European Theater 
Cubia Jones* 11 March 1945 European Theater 
H. Perry 15 March 1945  Shot
Kinney Jones 20 March 1945 European Theater 
Mock 20 March 1945   
Robert L. Pearson & Parson Jones (double execution) 17 March 1945 Shepton Mallet, England Hanged
John W. Taylor 20 March 1945 European Theater 
Swalls 29 March 1945   
Boswell April 1945*  Hanged
Thomas April 1945*  Hanged
Gill April 1945*  Hanged
William Harrison, Jr. 7 April 1945 Shepton Mallet, England Hanged
Mileert Bailey 18 April 1945 European Theater Hanged
James L. Jones 18 April 1945 European Theater Hanged
Jewin Williams 18 April 1945  Hanged
Richie 21 April 1945  Hanged
William McCarter May 1945* European Theater Hanged
Haze Heard May 1945* European Theater 
Shelton McGhee, Sr. 4 May 1945 European Theater 
George E. Smith, Jr. 8 May 1945 Shepton Mallet, England Hanged
Robert L. Donnelly 31 May 1945 European Theater Hanged
Alvey R. Rollins 31 May 1945 European Theater 
Matthew Clay, Jr. June 1945* European Theater 
Tom E. Gordon July 1945* European Theater 
Fred A. McMurray July 1945* European Theater Hanged
Louis Till July 1945* European Theater: Italy Hanged
Beshense 5 July 1945  Hanged
Davidson 5 July 1945  Shot
Charles H. Jefferies 5 July 1945 European Theater 
John T. Jones 5 July 1945 European Theater 
List 5 July 1945  Hanged
Henry W. Nelson 5 July 1945 European Theater 
Helmut Fischer (P.O.W.) 28 July 1945*  Hanged
Fritz Franke (P.O.W.) 28 July 1945*  Hanged
Guenther Kuelsen (P.O.W.) 28 July 1945*  Hanged
Heinrich Ludwig (P.O.W.) 28 July 1945*  Hanged
Bernard Reyak (P.O.W.) 28 July 1945*  Hanged
Otto Stengel (P.O.W.) 28 July 1945*  Hanged
Role Wizoy (P.O.W.) 28 July 1945*  Hanged
Davis August 1945*  Hanged
Reid August 1945*  Hanged
Boston 1 August 1945  Shot
Thomas 1 August 1945  Hanged
Reichl* 2 August 1945  Hanged
Harris 9 August 1945   
Clarence Whitfield 14 August 1945   
Ellis McCloud, Jr. 20 August 1945 Milne Bay, New Guinea Hanged
Robert Wray 20 August 1945 European Theater 
Waltens 31 August 1945   
Henry C. Philpot 10 September 1945  Hanged
Hurse 20 September 1945  Hanged
Gibson 24 September 1945  Shot
Thomas 25 September 1946   
Charles M. Robinson 28 September 1945 European Theater 
Blake W. Mariano 10 October 1945 European Theater 
Sidney Betterman 15 October 1945   
Louis 15 October 1945   
Woodrow Parker 15 October 1945 European Theater 
Charlie Ervin, Jr. 19 October 1945 European Theater 
Mansfield Spinks 19 October 1945 European Theater 
Harvey W. Nichols 28 October 1945 Milne Bay, New Guinea Hanged
Williams 28 October 1945   
Lee 9 November 1945   
Lee A. Davis 14 December 1943 or 1945 European Theater Hanged
Ellsworth Williams 5 January 1946 European Theater 
Abney   
Armistead   
Lee A. Burns  European Theater 
Stevenson   Hanged
Line   Hanged
Martinez   
Mickles   Hanged
Norman   Hanged


[edit] See Also
Shepton Mallet Military Prison
Plot E - "The Dishonored Dead"

[edit] Executions after World War II
These are those executed by the military after World War II

Executed person Date of sentencing Date of execution Crime
Bernard J. O'Brien 19 June 1952 31 July 1954 Premeditated murder
Chastine Beverly 10 October 1951 1 March 1955 Robbery, premeditated murder
Louis M. Suttles 10 October 1951 1 March 1955 Robbery, premeditated murder
James L. Riggins 10 October 1951 1 March 1955 Robbery, premeditated murder
Abraham Thomas 15 April 1954 8 February 1957 Four counts premeditated murder
Thomas J. Edwards 1 April 1953 14 February 1957 Premeditated murder
Winfred D. Moore 19 August 1953 14 February 1957 Murder, assault with intent to commit robbery
Ernest L. Ranson 5 June 1953 3 April 1957 Lifting weapon against superior officer, premeditated murder, rape, robbery, 2 counts of assault with dangerous weapon
John E. Day, Jr. 1 October 1951 23 September 1959 Murder, premeditated assault with attempt to do bodily harm with dangerous weapon, assault
John A. Bennett 8 February 1955 13 April 1961 Rape, premeditated attempted murder

[Michael Tee]

Holy shit!  What'd those guys do? 

(I know what the P.O.W.s did.  They organized the "executions" of anti-Nazi Germans in the POW camps.)

[domer]

"The times they are a-changin'," said Lt. Calley to himself sometime in 1967 or 1968.

[Plane]

Andrew Jackson was famous (infamous?) for executing deserters as a general on campaign.

During WWII there was a single execution for desertion.

Execution seems to be on a long slow slide toward rarity on which we are near the end.


I really was looking for the list of GIs executed during WWII for mistreating prisoners , I have not found it yet.

But I have decided how to treat it when I do find it.

If it is a long list it stands alone as proof of many instances of mistreatment.
If it is a short list then it may be construed as evidence of lax enforcement.

Unacounted for variables can be favorable assumptions can they not?

[Michael Tee]

<<Unacounted for variables can be favorable assumptions can they not?>>

Only for sloppy thinkers or those looking to validate their otherwise insupportable prejudices.  What you should be doing is comparing - - how many GI's executed for rape and murder of civilians in (a) WWII, (b) Viet Nam and (c) Iraq.

What you will find is that under the leadership of FDR, there were executions for these, under LBJ, Nixon and Bush - - no executions.  What FDR would not tolerate, LBJ, Nixon and Bush would.

As far as executions for mistreatment of prisoners - - in the first place you won't find any mistreatment.  Sure Nazis got punched out.  Lucky they were ONLY punched out, considering what they'd done.  In the Pacific, few prisoners were taklen.  Considering how the Japs treated Allied prisoners, that is perfectly understandable.  Again, no torture by Americans in either Pacific or European theatres.  Nothing comparable to Iraq.  So not only will you not find executions for prisoner torture, you won't find any prisoner torture.

In Viet Nam, you will find torture and murder of prisoners.  Many kinds of torture, many kinds of murder.  No punishments.  Calley got house arrest for a very short time.  28 murders he was convicted of - - - although the My Lai death toll was over 700.  Calley was at least charged and put on trial.  Bob Kerrey got a Silver Star and if one of his men hadn't opened his mouth late in the day, nobody would know of his crimes.  Common sense tells us there were probably ten or 20 Kerreys for every Calley.  Toledo Blade ran a series on the Tiger Brigade (or similar name) and its atrocities - - nobody even charged.  Human Rights First in its study showed that 5 months was the heaviest sentence passed for murder of prisoners.  (Probably written before the Chuck Granger sentence of several years for Abu Ghraib, another slap on the wrist.)

[Plane]

I note that each of the points ou make  includes  an assumption .


I still havent found the proof for any of your points , why should I accept your assumptions ?

[Michael Tee]

<<I still havent found the proof for any of your points , why should I accept your assumptions ?>>

If they don't make sense to you, don't accept them.  In short - - I accept them because they make sense.  They make sense to me because they accord with what I know of life.  They're much more likely than any alternative assumptions.  Obviously there is some exaggeration to make a point - - not even in the Nazi armies could you find 100% brutal thugs - - but I like my assumptions on the whole.  I know what's exaggerated to make a point and I think most thinking people can figure it out, get past the rhetoric and deal with the issues raised.   The brutality and violence crop up all over the map, again and again.  In the sixty-two years since WWII ended, there has not been ONE single incidence of torture alleged against U.S. troops.  It's simply ludicrous to claim it was as common as torture in America today.  Your assumption - - it was all over the map but not one person of the millions who served ever blew a whistle.  Not one victim ever surfaced.  That's bullshit and you know it too.

I'm very comfortable with my assumptions.  I think most people agree with them but are afraid to say so.  It doesn't look good to call "our fighting men and women" (domer's phrase) what they truly are: undisciplined losers with guns.  Bastards.  And their top leadership what it truly is:  morally bankrupt.  Cowards.  Torturers.  It only looks good to vilify the other side.  So people go along with the bullshit.  Take the line of least resistance.  "It only suffices for evil to triumph if good people do nothing."  And I don't think there's any doubt about it: evil has triumphed.

[Amianthus]

In the sixty-two years since WWII ended, there has not been ONE single incidence of torture alleged against U.S. troops.

I guess vivisection of living American POWs doesn't count as torture? Other medical experiments (which usually killed the subject) that were conducted on American POWs doesn't count, either?

[Michael Tee]

 <<guess vivisection of living American POWs doesn't count as torture? Other medical experiments (which usually killed the subject) that were conducted on American POWs doesn't count, either?>>

My point was that nobody accused the U.S. of torturing their WWII prisoners.

You seem to be saying that somebody tortured U.S. prisoners - - vivisected them, medically experimented on them (with usuallly fatal results) . . .

Are we talking at cross-purposes?  There's a certain ambiguity in the phrase "American POW" - - are you referring to prisoners OF the Americans or to American troops who happen to be prisoners of somebody else? 

In any case, I don't get the reference.  Who allegedly vivisected who?  Where?  When?

[Amianthus]

My point was that nobody accused the U.S. of torturing their WWII prisoners.

I guess I read it wrong. Need more coffee.

However, on that side, there are the (disputed by the US) claims of mistreatment at the Rheinwiesenlager.