Author Topic: Bush's America: 100 Percent Al-Qaida Free Since 2001  (Read 27077 times)

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Rich

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Re: Bush's America: 100 Percent Al-Qaida Free Since 2001
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2008, 10:45:34 AM »
>>You sure do, Rich.  In Grenada, in Panama City, in Iraq - - wherever you think you find somebody small enough and weak enough to invade and conquer, with minimal casualties of your own.<<

You're forgetting WWI, WWII, Korea. You remember those little wars. The ones in which America liberated 100 million or so people.

I'm done with you. You make me sick.

Michael Tee

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Re: Bush's America: 100 Percent Al-Qaida Free Since 2001
« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2008, 11:31:28 AM »
<<You're forgetting WWI, WWII, Korea. >>

WWII was a different America, FDR's America.  The last time you ever did the right thing.  Korea was morally questionable because it was in support of a puppet right-wing dictatorship.  I won't comment on WWI because I don't really know that much about it, but I am sure that your late, late, late entry into that war after most of the blood had been spilled had a lot less to do with "liberating millions of people" than it did with protecting J. P. Morgan investment in British war bonds.

<<You remember those little wars. The ones in which America liberated 100 million or so people.>>

I remember them a little more accurately than you do, not surprisingly - - most of those liberated in Europe were liberated by the Red Army, not America and the rest by American, British Empire, French, Polish and other Allied troops.  In the Pacific also, the Americans didn't do it alone although that seems to be what egotistical moronic jackasses like you seem to have learned somewhere.  Plenty of Americans know the real story of WWII, so I would assume that your knowledge of it is derived mainly from comic books.

<<I'm done with you. You make me sick.>>

Sorry to hear that.  I was having fun exposing your ignorance, bigotry and hatred with truth and facts and logic.  You were persistent in your lunacy and misinformation and were giving me a run for my money.  But you know what they say - - if you can't stand the heat . . . .

Plane

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Re: Bush's America: 100 Percent Al-Qaida Free Since 2001
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2008, 05:12:20 PM »
<<You're forgetting WWI, WWII, Korea. >>

WWII was a different America, FDR's America.  The last time you ever did the right thing. 


The changes in the USA since then have been negative overall?

We went to war in WWII same as WWI with racially segregated regiments. White suprimacy was spoken of by President Wilson as a good thing and President Roosevelt was indiffrent to it , Elinor Rosevelt was active in the Civil rights movement , but she was an early stand out , most of our politicians were reluctant to pay the price of promoteing the welfare of minoritys.

There is a long list of changes , not all of them this positive , but which changes in particular would you like to point to as being the reason that we are diffrent now and no longer interested in makeing the world safe for democracy?

_JS

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Re: Bush's America: 100 Percent Al-Qaida Free Since 2001
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2008, 05:15:58 PM »
Quote
But which changes in particular would you like to point to as being the reason that we are diffrent now and no longer interested in makeing the world safe for democracy?

How many brutal dictatorships or fascist leaders did we support during FDR's tenure? How many did we support afterwards? Quite a startling change of policy for a country that "makes the world safe for democracy."
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
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   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

BT

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Re: Bush's America: 100 Percent Al-Qaida Free Since 2001
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2008, 05:27:36 PM »
Quote
How many brutal dictatorships or fascist leaders did we support during FDR's tenure? How many did we support afterwards? Quite a startling change of policy for a country that "makes the world safe for democracy."

Latin America was a shining beacon of democracy during FDR's time? I did not know that.


_JS

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Re: Bush's America: 100 Percent Al-Qaida Free Since 2001
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2008, 05:34:38 PM »
Quote
How many brutal dictatorships or fascist leaders did we support during FDR's tenure? How many did we support afterwards? Quite a startling change of policy for a country that "makes the world safe for democracy."

Latin America was a shining beacon of democracy during FDR's time? I did not know that.



I did not realize that I claimed it was.

That didn't answer my question. And don't think that I'm some sort of FDR worshipper either.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

BT

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Re: Bush's America: 100 Percent Al-Qaida Free Since 2001
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2008, 05:38:40 PM »
Quote
How many brutal dictatorships or fascist leaders did we support during FDR's tenure?

That was your question.

Was Latin America a beacon of democracy or not?

Which is my question, the answer to which will go a long ways towards answering yours.

Your feelings concerning FDR are not relevant to the issue at hand.


Plane

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Re: Bush's America: 100 Percent Al-Qaida Free Since 2001
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2008, 05:39:38 PM »
How many brutal dictatorships or fascist leaders did we support during FDR's tenure?
All of them , excepting the Facists.

Quote
 How many did we support afterwards?

All of them excepting the Communists.

Quote
Quite a startling change of policy for a country that "makes the world safe for democracy."


No , it was pretty much the same policy from the same presidential staff, only FDR himself was unavailible to Harry Trueman


Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Bush's America: 100 Percent Al-Qaida Free Since 2001
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2008, 05:50:44 PM »
There is a difference between making the world safe for democracy (i.e., so WE can have a democratic government) and making the world a democracy.

The US wants a democracy only to the extent that the democracy in question is one we can manipulate. The Juniorbushies are on much better terms with the Saudis who inhabit a country where basically the entire nation and all its resources are property of the ruling family, and Iran, where regular elections are held and a choice of candidates is offered voters to choose between. We like the Saudis because the royal family can be bribed. We dislike the Iranians because they are refuse to be bribed by Americans and American companies.

There were rather a few Saudis involved in 9-11 and zero Iranians. Saudis still behead people in public, won't let women drive cars, and hack the hands off thieves.  Still, our leaders invite the Saudis over here, and their leaders invite ours over there, and the Bushes and the Al Sauds are such good pals that their oil minister calls himself Bandar Bush. Actually Prince Bandar has held a number of important jobs in the Royal Saudi government.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

fatman

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Re: Bush's America: 100 Percent Al-Qaida Free Since 2001
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2008, 05:55:48 PM »
There were rather a few Saudis involved in 9-11

I thought that the majority of 9/11 hijackers were Saudi?

Plane

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Re: Bush's America: 100 Percent Al-Qaida Free Since 2001
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2008, 05:57:37 PM »
The US wants a democracy only to the extent that the democracy in question is one we can manipulate.


This is an unsupported assumption on your part.

In France there is a democracy we are freindly with sometimes and in India there is a democracy we are freindly with sometimes .

Manipulation is not required.

Michael Tee

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Re: Bush's America: 100 Percent Al-Qaida Free Since 2001
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2008, 06:18:53 PM »
I don't want to idealize FDR as some kind of paragon of virtue.  He was a good man for his time.  America has always been a battleground between the forces of light and the forces of darkness.  It's easy to make America look good by emphasizing the good works of those who tried to change America for the better while hiding the bad stuff (lynch mobs, Jim Crow) under the rug.  Nobody gets a fully balanced picture and any imbalance is always heavily weighted towards the Shining City on a Hill side of the scale.

America has supported fascist dictatorships in Latin America, especially since the Bolshevik Revolution, when they were seen as the most reliable and strongest bulwark against communism.  America has always paid lip service, however, to human rights and democracy, in Latin America and around the world.  I think today their thinking has evolved to the point of probably preferring a stable, prosperous, right-of-centre "democracy," so long as the leaders of the major political parties are pro-American, pro-business and don't make waves.  But in a pinch, they'll turn to the Pinochets and their ilk in any unstable situation.

I think overall the negative changes since FDR were in international rather than domestic relations.  The racial issue has been slowly improving since FDR's time.  Eleanor Roosevelt can take a lot of the early credit for that, but other Democrats followed in her wake, including Hubert Humphrey and LBJ and ultimately the blacks achieved a kind of very belated de jure equality, if not a de facto one.

In the international arena, things went from bad to worse.  Even in FDR's time, he allowed the British to take sides in the Greek Civil War as early as 1944, leading to the defeat of the Communist guerrillas, who almost certainly represented the will of the Greek people, and the triumph of Royalist guerrillas representing the old, pre-War elites.  Stalin sat that one out, abandoning the Greek people and their Communist champions in return for what he believed would be a free hand in Eastern Europe, but even there, on ground won by the might of the Red Army, the  Western Allies, especially after the death of FDR, began badgering him with a lot of crap and nonsense about the "freedom of Poland" and other garbage they had absolutely no idea of the complexities of.  As the Americans and British began cozying up to the defeated Nazis, many of whom had committed horrific atrocities in the U.S.S.R. and Eastern Europe, Stalin began to feel that he was again being surrounded by a capitalist-backed series of pro-Western, pro-business regimes run by the same pre-war elites which had easily flocked to Hitler's banner.  This was followed by Stalin making sure that his grip on Eastern Europe was solidified, while the Western Allies, which had agreed to all of this at the Yalta Conference, began bitching, griping and threatening their former Soviet Ally notwithstanding Stalin's acquiescence his former Allies' intervention in the Greek Civil War.

So in a nutshell, while FDR and his VP Henry Wallace had believed in U.S.- Russian cooperation, under the Cold War policies of Truman and Acheson, these policies were overthrown and replaced by Cold War hostility and never-ending wars of aggression, basically a betrayal of our former Allies and an embrace of everything that we and they stood against,  that continue to this very day despite the "collapse" of communism.  Essentially this policy was a product of the so-called "military-industrial complex" referred to by Pres. Eisehhower in his farewell address.  A good expository outline of the military-industrial complex can be found in "The Power Elite" by C. Wright Mills.  There is no question in my mind that in its international relations, since the death of FDR and the electoral defeat of Henry Wallace in the 1948 Presidential election, it's been downhill all the way for the U.S.A.

Plane

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Re: Bush's America: 100 Percent Al-Qaida Free Since 2001
« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2008, 07:25:55 PM »
"...of the Communist guerrillas, who almost certainly represented the will of the Greek people, ...."



How would they know?

Communists do not beleive in elections , they don't even beleive in changeing the head man untill the crowd is shouting "Timişoara!"







http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timi%C5%9Foara

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Bush's America: 100 Percent Al-Qaida Free Since 2001
« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2008, 11:23:27 PM »
In France there is a democracy we are freindly with sometimes and in India there is a democracy we are freindly with sometimes .

Manipulation is not required.

========================================
In the case of France and Italy, the US routinely supported the Christian Democrats with clandestine funds as well as CIA dirty tricks and anything else to assure that the Communists would not win. This lasted in France until De Gaulle came to power and France was economically and politically able to tell the CIA and the US State Dept to go to Hell, which they did. In Italy this took a bit longer.

India is too big for the US to manipulate. It was a former British colony, and the British were seriously resented in India because of the British manipulation up until independence. It was cheaper for the US to manipulate Pakistani politics, anyway.

The US routinely dabbles in South American, Mexican, Eastern European, African and Pacific Island nations. Even Australia has been furgled in the past, when the Aussies elected a Labour government and the US finagled a takeover by the UK appointed Governor General.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: Bush's America: 100 Percent Al-Qaida Free Since 2001
« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2008, 12:50:30 AM »
<<How would they know?>>

How would who know what?