| Parents who lack teaching credentials cannot educate their children at home, according to a state appellate court ruling that is sending waves of fear through California's home schooling families. [...] The appellate panel ruled that Sunland officials' occasional monitoring of the Longs' home schooling -- with the children taking some tests at the school -- is insufficient to qualify as being enrolled in a private school. Since Mary Long does not have a teaching credential, the family is violating state laws, the ruling said. "Parents do not have a constitutional right to home school their children," wrote Justice H. Walter Croskey in a Feb. 28 opinion signed by the two other members of the district court. "Parents who fail to [comply with school enrollment laws] may be subject to a criminal complaint against them, found guilty of an infraction, and subject to imposition of fines or an order to complete a parent education and counseling program." |
This situation seems ripe for the kind of civil disobedience we were talking about a few days ago.
The kids have a right to a decent education.
IMHO, home-schooling by a bunch of ignorant fanatics exercising parental rights amounts to child abuse. They'll grow up dumb as shit and past a certain point there won't be any remedial education that'll work.
I think it's unfortunate that some parents are good teachers and some aren't, but the state can't afford to get into evaluations which are necessarily subjective to some degree. Best solution is to outlaw all religious, ethnic and home-schooling, and mandate that every kid without exception attend a regular school week in a regular school year at his neighbourhood public school. If the parents want to supplement their kids' education, they can do it at home, after school hours.
Best solution is to outlaw all religious, ethnic and home-schooling, and mandate that every kid without exception attend a regular school week in a regular school year at his neighbourhood public school.[/quote]
Remove from parents the power to choose how and where their children are educated? Then why even bother letting parents rear children at all?
So what? If the state has a right of oversight to ensure that the kids aren't being short-changed educationally, HOW they go about enforcing that right of oversight on a cost-effective basis that still respects human rights to the extent of not trampling on them any more than is absolutely necessary to fulfilling their mandate is their business. It seems to me that licensing requirements is one reasonable way to go.
One of the guiding principles of justice is that laws be applied equally.How is it fair for the state to issue an emergency credentials when it needs one yet set higher standards for home schoolers.
the parents' right to decide on their kids' education stops short at child abuse and stops short at depriving them of the same educational opportunities as other kids.
They don't OWN those kids, you know. They still have parental responsibilities and if they don't live up to them, the state will take those kids and put them with someone who will.
Well in real life the law is never called on to deal with "average" children
The parents who DO rear their kids must conform to minimal acceptable standards of rearing children and if they don't, they WILL lose those kids. Don't kid yourself into believing that the state doesn't have the right and the duty to see that kids are reared and educated to at least minimum acceptable standards. There is no property in a child - - the child has rights and the parent who won't provide those rights won't have that child.
(Aside to Stray Pooch: Shut up. Just don't even think about it.)
How can parents take responsibility for rearing their children when you take the power to effectively rear children away from the parents? And so the question remains, why even bother letting parents rear children at all?
Abolition of the family! Even the most radical flare up at this infamous proposal of the Communists.
On what foundation is the present family, the bourgeois family, based? On capital, on private gain. In its completely developed form, this family exists only among the bourgeoisie. But this state of things finds its complement in the practical absence of the family among proletarians, and in public prostitution.
The bourgeois family will vanish as a matter of course when its complement vanishes, and both will vanish with the vanishing of capital.
Do you charge us with wanting to stop the exploitation of children by their parents? To this crime we plead guilty.
But, you say, we destroy the most hallowed of relations, when we replace home education by social.
And your education! Is not that also social, and determined by the social conditions under which you educate, by the intervention direct or indirect, of society, by means of schools, etc.? The Communists have not intended the intervention of society in education; they do but seek to alter the character of that intervention, and to rescue education from the influence of the ruling class.
The bourgeois claptrap about the family and education, about the hallowed correlation of parents and child, becomes all the more disgusting, the more, by the action of Modern Industry, all the family ties among the proletarians are torn asunder, and their children transformed into simple articles of commerce and instruments of labor.
If you want a job done right, you can either do it yourself, or hire a professional. I imagine that most people would hire someone to fix their car AC, for example. Is educating your child more or less important or complicated than a car AC? I'd say teaching the kid is both more complicated and more important. Most people have someone else do their income taxes, which I have found is not hard at all using software on the PC. I'd call this less complicated and more important than educating a child as well.
American schools are a long ways from the best, compared with schools in Europe and Japan.
The way we run schools, with elected schoolboards staffed by non-professionals results in out students knowing considerably LESS than students the same age in the Netherlands, Scandinavia, France, Switzerland and Germany, just to name a few countries that outdo us.
There should be SOME supervision over parents who wish to homeschool their children, They should have some degree of preparation evident. Perhaps the parents need to pass some sort of exam.
If you want a job done right, you can either do it yourself, or hire a professional. I imagine that most people would hire someone to fix their car AC, for example. Is educating your child more or less important or complicated than a car AC? I'd say teaching the kid is both more complicated and more important.
There should be SOME supervision over parents who wish to homeschool their children, They should have some degree of preparation evident. Perhaps the parents need to pass some sort of exam.
Let the student take standard tests. If he can pass, say, the same tests local public school children take, then obviously the student is leaning as well or better than the students in public school. If we must have standards, the child learning should be the standard since that is the outcome desired, is it not? Or is the desired outcome merely to prevent homeschooling?
As such, a simple application of the principle of equality established in Brown vs. Board of Education would suggest that home schooling, regardless of outcome, is not equal to public schooling.
Do you charge us with wanting to stop the exploitation of children by their parents? To this crime we plead guilty.
UP, You are under the assumtion that the unsupervised parent is teaching high quality standards. What if the parent decides to teach the child a radically religious-based curriculum? What if the parent gives a narrow view of the world through the process of a comfortable "schooling at home".
Who really knows what goes on behind closed doors.
UP, You are under the assumtion that the unsupervised parent is teaching high quality standards. What if the parent decides to teach the child a radically religious-based curriculum? What if the parent gives a narrow view of the world through the process of a comfortable "schooling at home".
Miss Cynthia, with all due respect.......so what? The point Prince accurately referenced; are the children passing the tests?? If they are, what business is it of yours how they're taught?Who really knows what goes on behind closed doors.
I seem to recall a rage from Democrats complaining how the GOP supposedly wanted to know what was going on with person's private lives. (Strange how its the left gleefully talking about outing gay people) Are you one those?? If there's abuse, there are mechanisms already in place. You're advocating not just stepping over those mechanisms, but to remove the parent from parental decisions. Specifically as it relates to education
Now, you won't find a bigger supporter of teachers than me. Their job gets no where near the respect and admiration it deserves. BUT, to usurp parents decisions on how their own child is to be raised, because you need to know what's going on behind closed doors, sounds almost KGB-like.
Quote
Do you charge us with wanting to stop the exploitation of children by their parents? To this crime we plead guilty.
No, I charge you with wanting to exploit children for your own purposes.
So, are you saying that a good education comes down to a test?
What about the socialization factors involved, the spirit, the connection with others...a child's ability to interact and solve problems that can not be measured on a test?
UP,
You assume that the unsupervised parent is teaching high quality standards.
What if the parent decides to teach the child a radically religious-based curriculum?
What if the parent gives a narrow view of the world through the process of a comfortable "schooling at home"...a view that is biased and prejudicial.
Sure, there are extreme examples of white Supremacists who decide to teach their children to hate the government, or to hate- period. A slippery slope? Freedom to teach without standards that are universal to a given society is dangerous.
If, say, a parent thinks it is ok to hit a child for the sake of discipline with the attitude that a "hit" is a hit is a hit...a pat on the butt is a pat on the butt ...unless, of course that pat comes after the parent has consumed a six pack or two? Then the hit falls into a possible abuse. Slippery slope.
Parents who home school must be held to high and consistent standards. ....and someone has to monitor the parent's methods of teaching, not to mention curriculum.
Who really knows what goes on behind closed doors.
Then again, should we be allowed to make home visits on parents who home school, and decide to put them on the evening news if they do not hold up to such high standards?
So, are you saying that a good education comes down to a test?
Precisely. In fact, Marx says pretty much exactly that in that quote.
So, are you saying that a good education comes down to a test?
Aren't you saying good education comes down to using only approved teaching methods? Anyway, just exactly how do you expect to find out what a child has learned without a test?
So, now are we to advocate home schooling all of our children based on her success story?
QuoteSo, now are we to advocate home schooling all of our children based on her success story?
I think the debate revolves around choice. The public school system seems to be more concerned with maintaining their monopoly than meeting the challenge of their competition, whether it be private schools, parochial schools, charter schools or home schools.
And that is a shame.
Thanks for that trip down memory lane BT. I joined in either late 2001 or early 2002, mirstnkim talked me into it. So many names there that aren't around anymore, where'd they all go? I remember chat with kim, missus, you and brass, others would pop in once in awhile. I left for a year or two after I got into it with Hoot, but it wasn't just Hoot, I had a lot going on in my life. Whatever happened to BSB?
It's amazing to realize that it's been 7 years now, truly.
http://debategate.com/new3dhs/index.php?topic=5682.msg55400#msg55400
http://www.post41.com/members/homeschool.htm
http://debategate.com/new3dhs/index.php?topic=5682.msg55400#msg55400
I need more, BT.
Not enough data for proof.
You haven't proven public education is not good enough.
QuoteYou haven't proven public education is not good enough.
I believe i said homeschoolers on average outperform public school students. I provided sources which corroborated my assertion.
Perhaps if you have data that proves different, you can provide it.
I'll do my best, Bt..but I don't believe your data sources to be the precise and final answer. There are so many studies on so many elements in the field of education.
Out perform ps students...in all areas? Ok, if you say so...then why are we not setting up home schooling venues right and left?
Do you really believe that the public schools are that bad?
You seem to believe that the scores are evidence. There are ways around making grades shine, BT.
But, if that data proves your point...I am happy for you.
I'll do my best, Bt..but I don't believe your data sources to be the precise and final answer. There are so many studies on so many elements in the field of education.
As opposed to the unbiased view of the world public school offers?
Explain this, please.
Yes, we need to have consistent and quality teaching methods. Why not?
Tests reflect just a part of a child's knowledge.
There is so much more to education than testing.
There is observation of the child's key abilities, interests, developmental stages of learning.
Once again, what is the goal? To have aced a test, or to have made the grade through hard work, quality do-overs in life through practice after failure, and good old determination.....which are important pieces of the puzzle for a child whether that child has passed or not passed a test(s).
A+ kids...can fail in life...as D- kids can change a society.
Social skills are important, too.
Home schooling fail to measure up in that way, imo...
I am saying what if the parent teaches a child something like fundamental hatred of another person based on faith.
Directly being taught something is based on one's parental views...does not always give the child a chance to think for themselves.....
The genetic code is too close for a parent to objectively teach a child.
So, now are we to advocate home schooling all of our children based on her success story?
explain what is the perfect system for children
We are scattering to the winds currently. I say don't kick us when we are already down. Help fix a broken system that can work for those who don't have the choices.
We are scattering to the winds currently. I say don't kick us when we are already down. Help fix a broken system that can work for those who don't have the choices.
Public schools are already funded at a higher rate than any other form of schooling. It's time (possibly past time) for them to start competing for that higher level of funding.
Not in our state they are not funded at such a "higher rate", Ami.
Tests apples and teach apples.
Not in our state they are not funded at such a "higher rate", Ami.
New Mexico spends about $7,600 per pupil. Most private schools budget quite a bit less than this - they average about $3,500. Only the top end private schools for the children of the rich budget in the vicinity of $10,000 for each student, and many public school systems are approaching this level of budgeting, and several have surpassed it already (NY and CA).Tests apples and teach apples.
It's up to the state to decide what to test. I think your problems lie with your state administrators. States who feel that the sciences are part of a good education will test sciences as well, such as Minnesota and North Carolina. The goal of NCLB, however, remains making sure that all students learn the "three Rs" - readin' ritin' and rithmatic. Too many functionally illiterate children were graduating from public high schools for too many years.
Ok, well, perhaps that is true on paper, but in so many ways we don't seem to reap from such funding, as I see it. We are poor as crap. The schools are forced to rally to pass bond issues in order to fix old and dilapidated buildings....where's the money for all the problems we face? It sure doesn't appear to be a rich source here in our state...
Who will monitor the teachers in the home schooling market, is my question.
What evidence is there of this fear? Why do you say this is apparent?
Why do right wingers oppose public schoolteachers?
In Florida, the FCAT is not given to anyone except public school students. So there is no comparison between the public and private schools.
Why do right wingers oppose public schoolteachers?
Why do right wingers oppose public schoolteachers?
Who the hell is saying that?? I defy Xo, or anyone else to provide quotes in context that make such a claim. The only thing this RW'er opposies is being denied the CHOICE of a parent to send their child to Public School vs being Home Schooled. How that equates to opposing public school teachers is beyond me
Again, the supposed "pro-choice" side advocating no choice other than theirs
Tell me ---just why do you think your daughter's school offered such a ratio. 3:20. If it were the other way around, you bet tha would never fly with the stock holders of that school--the parents.
If you were a semi truck driver, and suddenly the boss came along and said :"I am going to replace some or all of you guys with guys who will work for less and have never driven a truck", what would your thoughts be?]
Currently the standardized tests do not align with the type of curriculum that we are mandated to teach in our classrooms, BT. MANDATED!!! Scripted!
So, instead of abandoning the system in favor of going home to learn...why not put effort into fixing the problem?
In some ways the schools of the past were fine..never broken compared to today.
I say don't kick us when we are already down. Help fix a broken system that can work for those who don't have the choices.
QuoteIf you were a semi truck driver, and suddenly the boss came along and said :"I am going to replace some or all of you guys with guys who will work for less and have never driven a truck", what would your thoughts be?]
Your analogy is flawed. A better analogy would be the government requiring CDL's to rent a u-haul moving truck. Public schools are funded based on average daily attendance. They (administrators, teachers and the unions that represent them) are fearful of an exodus from the public schools to more efficient and responsive alternatives.
There are LOTS of private schools that are not accredited and the state does nothing about it.
QuoteCurrently the standardized tests do not align with the type of curriculum that we are mandated to teach in our classrooms, BT. MANDATED!!! Scripted!
Why not?
Why do right wingers oppose public schoolteachers?
Quote from: Xavier OnassisWhy do right wingers oppose public schoolteachers?
We do not oppose schoolteachers at all. We also do not oppose public education. We simply oppose the government forcing us to send our kids to schools where teachers are NOT accountable and then insisting that parents must be accountable.
What is wrong with rewarding the good teachers and dumping the bad ones? Every other industry works that way. And private schools and parents certainly ought to be allowed to teach our children if we so choose. The children should be tested, to be sure, to be certain that they are learning appropriate skills for their level, but if the parents are doing the job there is no reason to force kids to go to government schools.
Quote from: Xavier OnassisWhy do right wingers oppose public schoolteachers?
We do not oppose schoolteachers at all. We also do not oppose public education. We simply oppose the government forcing us to send our kids to schools where teachers are NOT accountable and then insisting that parents must be accountable.
What is wrong with rewarding the good teachers and dumping the bad ones? Every other industry works that way. And private schools and parents certainly ought to be allowed to teach our children if we so choose. The children should be tested, to be sure, to be certain that they are learning appropriate skills for their level, but if the parents are doing the job there is no reason to force kids to go to government schools.
A very Plane-like concise answer.
*golf clap*
The tests are given in Feb!!!
....schools where teachers are NOT accountable and then insisting that parents must be accountable
if the parents are doing the job there is no reason to force kids to go to government schools
"We do not oppose schoolteachers at all. We also do not oppose public education."
But, with all due respect, Pooch, you have mentioned school teachers in your post and not favorably.
The good teachers who work hard, learn new methods, provide the best for kids are thrown into the mix of "bad teachers", because of test scores. I really can not understand why the public has come to the conclusion that if a school produces low test scores, that that equates to bad teachers.
I say damn the government for imposing such constraints on schools...and then bashing teachers. Leave it to mainstream media for spreading such streams of thought. It leaves out so much that is qualityt, and perpetuates negative thinking.....and is plain jus NO FAIR.
Ironically, my posts from yesterday did seem to imply similar sentiments......that there are bound to be bad teachers in the home schooling arena. I suppose I am doing the same thing to make a point.
I have yet to come in contact with such incompetence and failure as has been mentioned here on this board. I suppose in years to come there might just be a resistence against private schools or home schooling, but for now, public schools are suffering unjustly, I feel.
It's a shame that people never offer what can be done to improve a system for those kids who can not afford the luxury of private schooling or home schooling.
Springing forward to another day of facilitating and providing valuable learning possibilities for children who wouldn't get it at home, that's for sure.
It's a shame that people never offer what can be done to improve a system for those kids who can not afford the luxury of private schooling or home schooling.
No one was prosecuted, and nothing happened.
QuoteThe tests are given in Feb!!!
Who sets the test date?
The State Dept.
I think Mao would hand out medals, and perhaps front-row tickets to performances of "The White-Haired Girl", about a young Communist who fought so hard for the Revolution that her hair turned prematurely white.
In the USSR, eventually they gave you a chance to avoid waiting a decade for a new Lada or Moskvitch sedan.
We have a variety of 'Best teacher of the Year' Awards, based on student votes, but I never bother to pass out the ballots. I refuse to compete in stupid contests like this.
The kids have a right to a decent education.
IMHO, homeschooling by a bunch of ignorant fanatics exercising parental rights amounts to child abuse. They'll grow up dumb as shit and past a certain point there won't be any remedial education that'll work.
I think it's unfortunate that some parents are good teachers and some aren't, but the state can't afford to get into evaluations which are necessarily subjective to some degree. Best solution is to outlaw all religious, ethnic and homeschooling, and mandate that every kid without exception attend a regular school week in a regular school year at his neighborhood public school. If the parents want to supplement their kids' education, they can do it at home, after school hours.
Bt, with all due respect...you don't listen.
QuoteBt, with all due respect...you don't listen.
Cynthia, with all due respect.... I do listen.
For example i distinctly "heard" you state that administering the test in february was idiocy.
That testing for the whole curriculum so early in the year was a setup for failure.
So i dug a bit.
Georgia has their tests in April.
Same with California.
NCLB declares that the states design and implement the tests.
Which means in your case, NM is responsible for your dissatisfaction.
Did i "mishear" you?
QuoteBt, with all due respect...you don't listen.
Cynthia, with all due respect.... I do listen.
For example i distinctly "heard" you state that administering the test in february was idiocy.
That testing for the whole curriculum so early in the year was a setup for failure.
So i dug a bit.
Georgia has their tests in April.
Same with California.
NCLB declares that the states design and implement the tests.
Which means in your case, NM is responsible for your dissatisfaction.
Did i "mishear" you?
Bt,No, you haven't been reading the entire thread of my argument. I have told you that I take issue with NCLB and that the "act" is at the heart of what is harming so many public school children in this country. The punitive actions are based on absolute unrealistic expectations, but you refuse to hear that. You interpret those actions to be the natural response to bad teaching, and bad teachers.....in total. No. Not true. Find out more. I am spent here trying to tell you about the expectations that are unreasonable.
I have seen the difference in the classroom and you refuse to listen to what is happening. There are just too many problems with the "act".
Testing is part of any school system...home schooling included, of course. That goes without saying. I am not necessarily arguing with that. I am arguing with you on the point that testing alone is not a complete measure of a good education. Not all.....I am not saying testing or assessments are worthless. There is more to a child than a test.
I was wrong about the fact that homeschooling produces higher scores than the PS system of today. I was in the dark ages and I disagree with MT on that now. There is no abuse if the parents are qualified and do a damn good job of educating their children. In fact, the way things are going in the PS's I think they are doing a better job. When I taught kindergarten in the late 70's, we gave our children all the hands on learning, enriched experiences and plenty of opportunities to grow. That's not teh case now. Stepford kids are being told to sit for 90 minutes (age 5) in order to chime letter sounds.....there are fewer and fewer E.C.E classrooms on the docket these days.
The fact is that the home is an environment rich with all that is comforting, literate and 'hands on', which is what we have offered children in the PS until the NCLB act came about. We are now mandated by the trickle down effect of the NCLB ACT to teach scripted programs. There is no more 'engagement" in the curriculum. They children must repeat after me....."sound" ai...ay...."sound" when I put my finger on a letter cluster you repeat after me....GO!. Our district has taken away so much, BT.
We are not even allowed to go on field trips anymore.---too risky. Law suits. We can't teach social studies, science and the arts. Why? Not just Richardson, that's for sure.
Home schooling is a better solution and I even agree with that now...and if for nothing else, it offers a lower student teacher ratio right off the bat.
If I were a parent, I wouldn't have the courage to send my child to a public school today.
But, the children who do not have that luxury of being home schooled or attending a private school, have every right to a complete and well rounded education. They are losing that more now than ever. I see it!!! You might disagree on a political stance, but I see it first hand. You can't tell me that the issue isn't up there as a major one for no reason at all, BT. come on....otherwise, my argument would not hold water...as it would be based on Richardson's croonies. BUt no.
YEs, IT IS the NCLB act that is at the heart of all that is wrong with education in teh public sector today.
The fact is that the home is an environment rich with all that is comforting, literate and 'hands on', which is what we have offered children in the PS until the NCLB act came about.
QuoteThe fact is that the home is an environment rich with all that is comforting, literate and 'hands on', which is what we have offered children in the PS until the NCLB act came about.
What utter nonsense. Public schools have been in trouble since Carter. Why do you think there is a cabinet level Secretary of Education.
But you are correct about one thing. The problem seems to have mushroomed since schools got away from their core mission and implemented a whole slew of new methodologies around the beginning of the 70's.
QuoteThe fact is that the home is an environment rich with all that is comforting, literate and 'hands on', which is what we have offered children in the PS until the NCLB act came about.
What utter nonsense. Public schools have been in trouble since Carter. Why do you think there is a cabinet level Secretary of Education.
But you are correct about one thing. The problem seems to have mushroomed since schools got away from their core mission and implemented a whole slew of new methodologies around the beginning of the 70's.
Its not about the children. It's about the jobs.
Please explain how promoting illiterate children all the way through high school is providing quality education for children.
It?s not about the children. It's about the jobs.
Cynthia,
This isn't about you. I am sure you are a fine dedicated teacher doing the best under difficult circumstances.
But you have to admit that most of the resistance to the accountability that comes with programs like the NCLB seem to be more concerned with protecting their turf than improving the lot of the kids they are charged with educating.
Sirs, Explain why you think, Bingo...please.
QuoteSirs, Explain why you think, Bingo...please.
Strangely the post I was trying to respond to wasn't working, but I happened to have kept the particular post on my computer to more properly respond to it when I could
Let me again reference my substantial respect for teachers, both in the Public & Private sectors. You couldn't pay me enough to put up with the "stuff" they have to, be it from the kids, the parents, and/or their own administrators.
Now, to focus on the query, minus all the "nuance", the teacher's unions, as exemplified by both the NEA & the CTA, .....and perhaps that's too vague, let's say the leadership of those unions, have made it crystal clear that children are not their priority, education is not their priority, job security is. Whether its teachers, assistant principals, or principals. One can easly come to that conclusion based on the pervasive efforts made to both stifle any competition that would in turn facilitate even better efficiency & teaching ability, at all grade levels, and in making it nearly impossible to fire incompotent or worse, predatory teachers/principals. I heard a story just today in the LA Unified School district who blew millions of dollars on a payroll computer system, that's still sending checks to dead teachers, a YEAR LATER. You also have this Principal (http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-principal13mar13,0,1739968.story) who instead of being fired for his prior conduct or at minimum kept away from any & all children, had some form of "must be placed" designation, and placed at Watts Middle School, where neither teachers nor administrators were told of his background, and now he's alledged to have sexually assaulted a 13year old girl.
It should have never gotten that far, Miss Cynthia. But his job apparently was more important than the children he was going to be put in contact with. That's just 1 of a whole host of examples as to why I "bingo'd" Bt's post
So many times, we base our thoughts, reactions, and feelings on an issue based on what has been "heard" in the media ....and it seems to me that most, if not all of those "stories heard", are negative and do a good job of selling news(papers). Sure, that doesn't mean that some of those stories are not news "worthy", but that's all . I have yet to see anyone publish all the thousands of wonderful things that occur on a daily basis in classrooms across this nation.
Anyone who says that because ONE element of the system has been stained , then all the rest must also be a failure. ...
My gosh, they stand up for the many, many good teachers, Sirs.
You and BT continue to make broad stroke statement against such unions, as if they are in some sort of self serving bastards who want nothing else but to save the bad apple's asses.(jobs) Wow, that's all you have to offer?
ok...Sure, Catholic priests have harmed kids. Sure, some educators have harmed kids.....but you have to be kidding me if you want to erase all the rest of the population of such dedicated individuals in order to make a point?!
Job security?? Oh give me a break. Sirs, did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe all systems, be they PS school systems, or law firms, or Fruit Basket markets down 12th stree..... are filled with few bad apples?
Sure, there are really stupid principals. There are many crazy administrators...but there are also very dedicated ones, as well.
Cynthia,First of all, let me say that ....
If you were omnipotent, what changes would you make to the education system that provided for competency at grade level for all students as well as school system wide accountability?
"The emphasis the NEA and unions place on job security for even the incompotent teachers, Principals, & Administrators?? The overt effort of the union to stifle any competition that happens to exist in nearly every other enterprise, perpetuating their effort to monopolize the education system?? "
YEs, I disagree with your statement, here, Sirs.
Yeah, you realize that teachers are grossly underpaid, subject to a ponderous bureaucracy, and restricted from using their own minds, and yet you want to take away the only power they actually have, the NEA.
You think that the NEA should rat out people you think are bad teachers, when all it wants is the right to a comprehensible due process system that will encourage mediocre teachers to become better teachers.
Without the NEA and similar organizations, teachers would have no job security at all and even more pitiful salaries and would lose all claim to being professionals.
So screw you. And the horse you rode in on. You have no concept of the problems teachers face.
So screw you. And the horse you rode in on. You have no concept of the problems teachers face.
BINGO, XO!!
If the teachers did absolutely EVERYTHING that you think they should, they would not get paid one dime more unless they had an organization to do battle for them.
You have never belonged to the NEA....
You have never belonged to the NEA. So your opinion is worth exactly zilch
Teaching is not in any sense a competitive economy, nor should it be.
Competition does not make for good education.
It makes for an environment in which only one is a winner and all the rest are losers.
A teacher who is told he will be fired unless he does everything in some prescribed way, which is what happens when some bozo decides on "standards", will never try any new techniques and no one who is constantly threatened with being fired will be able to teach in any effective way.
Holding a teacher accountable for reaching those standards in no way inhibits innovation and new techniques as long as the results meet the prescribed standards.
Well see, there is the problem. We don't really KNOW how people learn the most effectively. If you experiment with a new technique, it might not work at all. Most likely, it will be effective for some, but not others, since not ever person learns the same way.
So tell me Miss Cynthia, how long have you been a member of the military & war in Iraq? You do seem to be criticising it ever so frequently now, and membership is apparently required to be able to do that, right??
(And FYI, I did teach for 2 years, before I got into PT school, and while I was a Physical Therapist, I spent about 3 years working in the school system. >:( )
Holding a teacher accountable for reaching those standards in no way inhibits innovation and new techniques as long as the results meet the prescribed standards.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Well see, there is the problem. We don't really KNOW how people learn the most effectively. If you experiment with a new technique, it might not work at all. Most likely, it will be effective for some, but not others, since not ever person learns the same way.The people at the forefront of learning theory are not Doctors of education, but Doctors of Brain physiology, and they have yet to apply their findings in any effective way to serious educational theory and/or experimentation.
The purpose of any experiment is to see what works and what does not. If the teacher tries something and it does not produce better results than the previous method, he has succeeded as a scientist, but failed as a teacher to the degree that his hypothesis did not work out. And he will no doubt catch hell for trying something new.
If his hypothesis works, then he is a hero, of course.
As for competition, the very WORST example is in high school sports. The kids that make the team are only a small percentage of all the students for whom physical exercise is advantageous. The kids who really needs physical training--the fat kids, the wimpy kids, the scrawny nerds--never make the team. They sit on the benches even during PE class, And the kids who need physical training the very least make the team and nearly all the money is spent on them.
This may aid in producing a few professional athletes, but it shortchanges at least 90% of the student body even in the smallest high schools.
Spelling bees in ONE class might be useful to the students. It becomes less and less useful as the total group becomes larger. Eventually we end up discovering that one 12 year old Southeast Asian girl is the only human in the nation who can spell everything, at which point it is a lot more a freak show than an educational exercise.
And, no, in most schools the teachers are far too overworked to try innovative techniques in any scientifically useful way. Not following the prescribed lesson plan is going to get any beginning teacher fired for sure. Your best chjance is to teach in a school everyone considers hopeless, like the Chicano Garfield High in the film Stand and Deliver.
Yes competition exists. And the schools are charged with preparing future generations with meeting that competitive challenge and it doesn't matter if the graduate competes with their neighbor or someone half way around the world.
It's criminal that some high school graduates (not drop outs) can't fill out job applications. It's criminal that a large number of incoming college freshmen are required to take remedial courses ( XO has testified to this).
It is not alway the teacher's fault, BT.
my nephew told me teachers grade in a curve and understand that it encourages poor performance since if one students is extremely bright it would lower everbody elses grades and discourages performance but if everyone gets average or less than everybody benefits.
the theory was to encourage better performance ,but somehow never factor in students get discouraged with fluctuating test scores
ex. 85% =b today ,c+ tommorow
what is the logic for the bright student to raise test score and hurt everrybodies grade
when he still get the same grade doing average.
My point? Charter, Vouchers, Private, ...who's to say ...who's to PROVE that the "grass is greener on the other side"?
QuoteMy point? Charter, Vouchers, Private, ...who's to say ...who's to PROVE that the "grass is greener on the other side"?
And my point is that if more time were spent improving the public school product instead of protecting public school jobs, maybe , just maybe , we wouldn't be in this mess.
Protecting jobs is protecting children in the end.
QuoteMy point? Charter, Vouchers, Private, ...who's to say ...who's to PROVE that the "grass is greener on the other side"?
And my point is that if more time were spent improving the public school product instead of protecting public school jobs, maybe , just maybe , we wouldn't be in this mess.
I believe that more time, money, attention should be spent on what is already working well in the public schools. Protecting jobs is protecting children in the end.
I believe that more time, money, attention should be spent on what is already working well in the public schools.
QuoteI believe that more time, money, attention should be spent on what is already working well in the public schools.
If it were working so well there would be no need for NCLB, remedial courses in college and teacher fears of being held accountable.
sir`s I understand what your saying, remove the job security and make it performance base and natural selection will weedout the bad teachers.
but how about attracting good teachers?
Also, we must increase the base pay of every teacher across the country and make the positions more desirable in terms of compensation to people who might like to do the job but don't want to work for pennies and get shot and deal with 40 teenagers all day.
but how about attracting good teachers?
The problem you run into is there is no way to factually discern who is and isn't a "good" teacher. Bad teachers can pass poor students.
but how about attracting good teachers?
The problem you run into is there is no way to factually discern who is and isn't a "good" teacher. Bad teachers can pass poor students.
But not pass standardized tests. That will FACTUALLY help demonstrate who is and isn't a good teacher
We are not afraid of being accountable, BT. I don't hear/see that where I work.
Perhaps the educators in your community feel that way.
QuoteWe are not afraid of being accountable, BT. I don't hear/see that where I work.
Perhaps the educators in your community feel that way.
Nonsense. You have claimed repeatedly that the act is punitive in its accountability provisions. That it is unfair. That standardized tests are the problem.
So how do you measure performance other than testing?
Also, we must increase the base pay of every teacher across the country and make the positions more desirable in terms of compensation to people who might like to do the job but don't want to work for pennies and get shot and deal with 40 teenagers all day.
Interestingly enough, teacher pay in private schools is lower than that in public schools, and there are teachers fighting to get jobs in those private schools.
but how about attracting good teachers?
The problem you run into is there is no way to factually discern who is and isn't a "good" teacher. Bad teachers can pass poor students.
But not pass standardized tests. That will FACTUALLY help demonstrate who is and isn't a good teacher
What would be the right way?
I believe the word would be accountable....or you're out.
QuoteI believe the word would be accountable....or you're out.
Sounds punitive.
And again, how do you measure performance without testing?
To hold ALL CHILDREN accountable to read at grade level no matter what is not reasonable.
but how about attracting good teachers?
The problem you run into is there is no way to factually discern who is and isn't a "good" teacher. Bad teachers can pass poor students.
But not pass standardized tests. That will FACTUALLY help demonstrate who is and isn't a good teacher
No, sirs, it will NOT demonstrate who is and who is not a good teacher.
It's obvious you are not a teacher. You have not clue, with all due respect.
Ok....you don't understand teaching....or any real" element within the culture that is education, educating...and the schooling of children.
Teachers are fighting to get into the public schools in our city, Ami.
Hmmm, so there ya go...can't broad stroke every situation.
SANTA FE -- New Mexico's teacher shortage -- already a major concern from Albuquerque to Zuni -- continues to worsen, with rookies dropping out, unqualified people manning more classrooms and increased turnover from year to year, according to a report released today.
And poor, rural schools, many of them already on probation for inadequate academic performance, suffer the most, says the report by the state Department of Education.
"What is true in New Mexico and is true nationally is the kids who need them (good teachers) the most, often end up with the least-qualified teachers," said Peter Winograd, a University of New Mexico professor who managed the report.
Too few teachers? Just make provisional certificates easier to get. If that isn't enough, Let substitutes work a higher percentage of the time.
but how about attracting good teachers?
The problem you run into is there is no way to factually discern who is and isn't a "good" teacher. Bad teachers can pass poor students.
But not pass standardized tests. That will FACTUALLY help demonstrate who is and isn't a good teacher
No, sirs, it will NOT demonstrate who is and who is not a good teacher.
I did not say it was the ONLY means of demonstration.....simply a significant one. Hard to pass failing students and then have them pass standardized testing, and call yourself a "good teacher"It's obvious you are not a teacher. You have not clue, with all due respect.
Then, I would expect no further criticizing of Bush and the war in Iraq, since its obvious you're not in the military and apparently have no clue, with all due respect
It's obvious you are not a teacher. You have not clue, with all due respect.
Then, I would expect no further criticizing of Bush and the war in Iraq, since its obvious you're not in the military and apparently have no clue, with all due respect (since it is obvious that you know nothing about the details within)
And I would expect NO further criticism or praise in the direction of the public schools, teachers and the NCLB act since it is obvious that you know nothing about the details within.
It's obvious you are not a teacher. You have not clue, with all due respect.
Then, I would expect no further criticizing of Bush and the war in Iraq, since its obvious you're not in the military and apparently have no clue, with all due respect (since it is obvious that you know nothing about the details within)
And I would expect NO further criticism or praise in the direction of the public schools, teachers and the NCLB act since it is obvious that you know nothing about the details within.
Ok, so that's the deal right? You're not to criticize the war any further and I'm not to criticize public education any longer. Deal?
Oh, and by the way you are not in Iraq-fighting for our freedom, so you can't say squat in that dept either.
;)
And meanwhile the children will be cheated as the status quo is protected.
And so it goes.
No, not right.
The children will be given more. Not cheated, BT.
There are not enough Chinese or Indians selling in yard sales to come to any conclusions abou what they read or how much.
If we really wanted a solution, we'd check out to see what they do in Canada, France, Italy, and perhaps the Netherlands and Germany.
Does anyone really think that this discussion will have any effect on education anywhere?
I tend to think it won't.
If we really wanted a solution, we'd check out to see what they do in Canada, France, Italy, and perhaps the Netherlands and Germany.
You do realize that several of those spend less per pupil than the US does? What if checking these other countries brings people to the conclusion that we spend too much on our school system?
Does anyone really think that this discussion will have any effect on education anywhere?
I tend to think it won't.
Not when people like Sirs and BT turn a blind eye to what is happening on the front lines.
Children are being left behind more so than ever.
NO amount of beating a dead horse will help them to see this.
I have a feeling that their need to debate this issue rises from a need to flex some sort of ego muscle. hmmm...passionate about education?
I know they are not.
So, they will rebuke and fight back in order ....to have a last word...which I will let them both have. BUt they are wrong. Very very wrong.
I see right through them both. ...hard core debaters? I suppose so.
Ok boys, pack up your guns and head back to the bar. You're going to want the last word, I am sure.
Well Jeez, I AM focusing.
But I can't make TV inaccessible to kids until they have read books ands studied.
If you really want to know what the NEA wants, ask them, not me. I have not been a member since we lost the union without one damned contract in 1988.
On a completely unrelated tangent, I have to wonder if this thread is coming close to the all time leader in postings and/or viewings 8)
Gov. Bill Richardson (D-NM) said elected leaders cannot ignore the voice of NEA when setting education policy.
Sirs, I rest my case....the NCLB act simply needs to be fixed.
I think that Obama just might be the next best president to fix what is broken.
Hint, it's not "more money" that'll fix it. Been tried already, year after year after year after year after year.
Yeah, sure. Teachers can't even afford to buy homes in the communities in which they live.
The money they pay teachers does not even keep up with inflation.
I have never gotten a raise of more than 4% in thirty years. Once we got 4%. all other years it was in the 1-3% range.
There wwere five years we got no raise at all. You, sirs, are full of crap.Hint, it's not "more money" that'll fix it. Been tried already, year after year after year after year after year. You do not know what the hell you are talking about. Really.
You long for the day when you could prevent the NEA from even existing, and we can go back to awarding one Best Teacher of the year a WHOLE THOUSAND DOLLARS/
| To soothe the bruised egos of educators and children in lackluster schools, Massachusetts officials are now pushing for kinder, gentler euphemisms for failure. Instead of calling these schools "underperforming," the Board of Education is considering labeling them as "Commonwealth priority," to avoid poisoning teacher and student morale. Schools in the direst straits, now known as "chronically underperforming," would get the more urgent but still vague label of "priority one." The board has spent parts of more than three meetings in recent months debating the linguistic merits and tone set by the terms after a handful of superintendents from across the state complained that the label underperforming unfairly casts blame on educators, hinders the recruitment of talented teachers, and erodes students' self-esteem. [...] Joseph Burke, Springfield superintendent, said that while he is not crazy about any label, he would prefer "priority one," because "It sounds nicer." [...] "When schools are labeled as underachieving, I don't see what it serves other than just to call them out," he said. "And it creates this antagonistic nature of, 'Well, you did something bad, and we're going to punish you for it.' . . . When the town hears underperforming, the average person thinks these students are underperforming." But the reality is that Randolph students are underperforming, according to state benchmarks. More than half of third-graders are not proficient in math and reading. More than 40 percent of 10th-graders don't perform at grade level in English and math. |
Oh good gravy
Okay, but remember, you asked for it: http://www.gourmet-food-revolution.com/brown-gravy-recipe.html.
QuoteOkay, but remember, you asked for it: http://www.gourmet-food-revolution.com/brown-gravy-recipe.html.
That doesn't look that good. Good gravy is made with pan drippings, reux, and beef/chicken/turkey base. I've never put jelly in gravy, that's just too odd for me.
It's amazing some of the tangents that can spring forth from one of these threads
UP...I think you are wise beyond your years....You're quite the old timer in this land of debate gate arena....
but the bottom line is what really happens with in the classroom. When you critcize "feeling good" about self and eduation..that isn't to be laughed at. There is a critical element in the teaching science that is only enhanced with such a reality. Children who do not feel good about themselves, sink ...fast.
You would never have risen to your level of a debate champ without that boosted self esteem, I guess.
IT's a joke ..urban legand to think that "feeling good" is a crock. It's not.
Ok, I am not going to ask you this...Have you been in a classroom setting, lately?
But, I ask you...Have you..ok I ask you.
I will fight against all who sit and project their "idea" of education when, in fact, they have no idea of all the factors involved.
It's amazing some of the tangents that can spring forth from one of these threads
Gary...currently, we are NOT ALLOWED TO TEACH SUCH THINGS in the public schools. Nor are we "allowed" to teach science and social studies. I posted that point..and the fact that it is not just in New MExico.
You refuse to hear me.
That's just the tip of the ice berg, dear man.
The NCLB ACT has managed to do away with quality. Bottom line.
Nor are we "allowed" to teach science and social studies. I posted that point..and the fact that it is not just in New MExico.
Teachers here do not make $40,000, and the average house costs well over $300K.
Sirs, You will never know what's what in all of this, because you refuse to see. You are in the dark...and yet You continue to bark. Your passion to prove wrong only hurts our children., hands down.
The war was not supposed to be a WAR as we see it. Bush promised in and out quick feet....sweet tweet...
instead..we have an occupation and blood all over the place for what?....Bush betrayed this country.
The war was not supposed to be a WAR as we see it. Bush promised in and out quick feet....sweet tweet...
instead..we have an occupation and blood all over the place for what?....Bush betrayed this country.
Bought into the DNC talking points I see. Hmmmmmmm :-\ And just validating the accusation, you've been trying to level at me, regarding education.
but is a 200k house near a crack house ?
The war was not supposed to be a WAR as we see it. Bush promised in and out quick feet....sweet tweet...
instead..we have an occupation and blood all over the place for what?
Teachers here do not make $40,000, and the average house costs well over $300K.
$40,000 might be a princely sum in whatever podunk place you live in, but life in any city costs a lot more than that.
Your opinion is that they should be banned from paying union dues (as if $300 a year is enough to buy a house with) and the teachers unions should be powerless to assist the teachers in making a decent salary.
You have no such right, and should be given no such right.
Those increases have hit our system as well, Xavier. The "raise" ends up being a clutch for scraps.
The war was not supposed to be a WAR as we see it. Bush promised in and out quick feet....sweet tweet...
instead..we have an occupation and blood all over the place for what?
Actually, Bush said that it was going to be a long war. Just because many did not listen, does not mean he didn't say it.
ex. pitney bowes employees pay over 110% of thier insurance till they work enough years for the company to be worth it for the company to cover it
I know because I used to work for them
Naturally, the fact that everyone is getting screwed royally means that it is somehow fair.
Fair like an earthquake or hurricane is fair.
but the answer would be most folks don`t have that much of a choice if they want to work for that company or to get insurance with a pre-existing condition.
And California (as well as most states) has laws requiring health insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions.
I`m not saying required
but it really makes things easier to have then through your job
and insurance didn`t really deny people with pre-existing conditions
they just charge them alot more.
That is not the point.
The percentage of health insurance of most people's salaries have risen MUCH FASTER than the salaries.
The copayments have also gone up and up.
This extra money is not going to the workers...they are not making enough th keep up with their health care insurance, either.
not sure it`s illegal for bussiness to charge more since they use staff to process it so admin cost go into play.
Ok maybe you're not a fool...but UP??
If you were to rule the school system, competition would be the least of your problems.
You want THE RIGHT EDUCATION for all?
Stop blaming the people who sweat and work hard to provide such.
Vouchers will provide a place to run and find a new chance?
You think?
Pay the teachers more. Raise the standards for the parents and see how much of a 'chance' your future children will have then.
What are your qualifications to lecture about the system that fails a child?
Sit in on a classroom where the child is hungry. Sit in on a classroom where a child has been beaten blue and no can prove it. Sit in on a classroom where a child struggles to smile and find peace of mind.
Damn you people who think VOUCHERS are the answer.
I call you fools.
I get pissed when I read such words.....IF YOU could RUN things??...BUt YOU CAN'T??
God, thank God you can't. UP.
Huh. Okay.
I am passionate about this issue.
I am passionate about this issue.
Nothing wrong with that.
My gripe is more about the punitive actions based on the need to pressure all in teh system to meet a one size fits all mentality for the gov.
My gripe is more about the punitive actions based on the need to pressure all in teh system to meet a one size fits all mentality for the gov.
A one size fits all mentality being exactly what I'm arguing against, which is why I support vouchers, school competition and homeschooling.
My passionate stance here is WHY CAN'T WE FIX THE PS system so families that can not homeschool, or move their children around the city (vouchers) can still get the best??
I say we need to support what is already part of a great infrastructure. Teh Public Schools. The way the government is going about it, isn't good enough. That's my beef.
My passionate stance here is WHY CAN'T WE FIX THE PS system so families that can not homeschool, or move their children around the city (vouchers) can still get the best??
We can. And there are people trying. But there is a lot of opposition to change by the established order, which is to say school boards and teachers' unions.
I say we need to support what is already part of a great infrastructure. Teh Public Schools. The way the government is going about it, isn't good enough. That's my beef.
The way the federal government goes about it will never be good enough, imo. It shouldn't even be meddling in the issue. Education at the local level needs local solutions.
The issue I have is based on some of the "provisions" within the act itself. Public school teachers are limited in what they can teach. Reading, and Math. That's a crime! We used to teach it all! That's my beef! I believe that "crime" to be the fault of an unreasonable and unjust pressure to score high OR HIT THE ROAD mentality.
The issue I have is based on some of the "provisions" within the act itself. Public school teachers are limited in what they can teach. Reading, and Math. That's a crime! We used to teach it all! That's my beef! I believe that "crime" to be the fault of an unreasonable and unjust pressure to score high OR HIT THE ROAD mentality.
That is not true.
As a matter of fact, science is one of the mandatory tests under NCLB.
And the curriculum is decided by the states, not by the federal government - it's not mandated in the NCLB act AT ALL.
I am not saying that the NCLB act is responsible for dictating what we teach. Sure, in our district
the SBA does test Science, although the scores in that area of the test do not count in terms of meeting AYP or not meeting AYP.
We are mandated to teach 120 minutes in reading and 120 minutes in math, with a bit of writing on the side. There is no time for a richness in the other subject areas, as there once was in our schools.
But, there is a unreasonable pressure to make sure that every child reads at the same level by a given date OR ELSE...
I blame the NCLB act for that. The act is not a bad idea. I have said that before, but what has come out of the whole thing, as I posted earlier today with regard to unreasonable expectations and punitive actions, is simply not right nor is it supportive. It's not good enough, Ami.
But, there is a unreasonable pressure to make sure that every child reads at the same level by a given date OR ELSE...
I am not saying that the NCLB act is responsible for dictating what we teach. Sure, in our district
the SBA does test Science, although the scores in that area of the test do not count in terms of meeting AYP or not meeting AYP.
Starting with this school year (07-08), the NCLB mandates science testing. And the definition of a school's "meeting AYP" is, again, defined by the state, not the NCLB.We are mandated to teach 120 minutes in reading and 120 minutes in math, with a bit of writing on the side. There is no time for a richness in the other subject areas, as there once was in our schools.
But, there is a unreasonable pressure to make sure that every child reads at the same level by a given date OR ELSE...
So, what has the state decided your "or else" is? Again, this is a state-defined action, not part of NCLB.I blame the NCLB act for that. The act is not a bad idea. I have said that before, but what has come out of the whole thing, as I posted earlier today with regard to unreasonable expectations and punitive actions, is simply not right nor is it supportive. It's not good enough, Ami.
What "punitive actions" does the NCLB act require? All I can see is that if the school does not meet it's AYP two years in a row, it's required to allow parents other options - vouchers, homeschooling, allowing students to transfer to other schools, etc. Why do you consider competition (especially competition to enrich the student's education) to be "punitive"?
But, do the expectations from the NCLB act fit the punishment?
I think not.
Hell, MOST schools are not meeting AYP. There is a reason for this. The expectations ARE NOT YOUR USUAL EXPECTATIONS that can be reached, Ami!
But, do the expectations from the NCLB act fit the punishment?
I think not.
What punishment are you talking about, and what expectations from NCLB are being punished?Hell, MOST schools are not meeting AYP. There is a reason for this. The expectations ARE NOT YOUR USUAL EXPECTATIONS that can be reached, Ami!
Then New Mexico must have a lot of problems; most of the schools in Minnesota met their AYP.
And again, the "expectations" are set by the state, not the NCLB act. Perhaps your state should set more reasonable expectations?
Yea, that rant......I mean objective analysis really focused on what reforms are necessary, along with suggestions and plans of implimentation
::)
With all due respect Miss Cynthia, listen to yourself. School is SUPPOSED to teach the basics. That's its PRIMARY FUNCTION. At least it used to be. All the pie in the sky stuff is cool, and sounds great, but NOT at the expense of teaching the basics. And trying to inhibit that goal is an absolute detriment to the children
And if you hadn't noticed, I wasn't ranting. I've consistely referenced suggestions that should be implimented and highligted entities trying to derail such. So, so much for the "leveling" charge, whatever that was supposed to mean
When the NCLB act was first enforced and set up in such a way(state handled or not) to meet certain unreasonable expectations the problems began. The NCLB act from it's birth stated that all children no matter what level, or ability, disability must be at the same point/grade level by a particular year. Blood out of a turnip. Water out of a rock.
No, they do not.
The NCLB act insists that ALL children read at grade level by a particular year.
Period.
No, they do not.
The NCLB act insists that ALL children read at grade level by a particular year.
Period.
Please quote the section of the NCLB act that says that.
I just did.
I say that's wrong. Fix the act, let it work, but don't take away.....provide a better way....
I just did.
No, actually, you did not. You quoted from an overview, not the act itself. And besides, the section you quoted just says what I've been saying - the states are required to set reasonable goals.
The original ACT was set up to threaten and provide more punitive actiosn than support.
I say that's wrong. Fix the act, let it work, but don't take away.....provide a better way....
And I have no problem with fixing things that are flawed. But saying you simply need smaller class sizes & more money (standard Democrat/Union talking points), when our $ per pupil is already higher than many other nations demonstrating far superior results in their childrens education, all the while making it virtually impossible to fire incompotent &/or predatorial teachers & administrators perpetuates precisely the status quo you're all so up in arms with
Professors, teachers, and many in the community see the broken system as it has turned out to become....full of the BASICS? NO...we are falling away from the basics when we insist that our kids stepFORd up to the plate....
QuoteProfessors, teachers, and many in the community see the broken system as it has turned out to become....full of the BASICS? NO...we are falling away from the basics when we insist that our kids stepFORd up to the plate....
Hard to build a house without a solid foundation.
The original ACT was set up to threaten and provide more punitive actiosn than support.
Please quote the section of the act that defines the "punitive actions" to be taken.
Well, now I see what Sirs and others have been promoting. The idea that it's time for a private, homeschool,magic charter school to step up and win that plate.
QuoteWell, now I see what Sirs and others have been promoting. The idea that it's time for a private, homeschool,magic charter school to step up and win that plate.
I doubt you do see.
Because you aren't seeing the converse. If the school isn't receiving title 1 funds and isn't in need of improvement then all is well and there is no need to intervene and offer viable options to the children attending underperforming schools.
What NCLB offers is hope.
No different than the hope that you have that Hillary or Obama will magically step in and fix the system.
Except NCLB offers a bit more concrete hope that children aren't forever abandoned to the soft bigotry of low expectations, because it offers alternatives.
Do you know how to teach a child.
whoa
we hit level 24!!
bt this gotta be a record
There are leading "suggestions" that each State take it upon itself to make SURE these scores are reached....thus the basis for the NCLB punitive implications, Ami.
The curriculum is boiling down to ONE SIZE FITS ALL curriculum as I see it daily in my classroom. We must teach all kids from the same book, with very little time to differentiate instruction. That's not the way it used to be. Education in the form of today's reading first schools fail to understand child development.
Also, how does it make sense to pull resources from a school that is not meeting standards? Do we have a system of inspectors as in the UK, like OFSTED, that goes to the schools and gives some sort of in-depth analysis as to why a school is failing? The NCLB would seem to demand such a program.
But, children deserve more than they are getting these days in the public schools.
I find it interesting that people keep on bringing in editorials about what the act does and does not do, rather than quoting from the act directly. I guess it's because if they quoted from the act directly, they would contradict their own arguments.
Also, how does it make sense to pull resources from a school that is not meeting standards? Do we have a system of inspectors as in the UK, like OFSTED, that goes to the schools and gives some sort of in-depth analysis as to why a school is failing? The NCLB would seem to demand such a program.
Actually, the NCLB mandates that states INCREASE funding to schools that perform poorly, until they fail to meet PROGRESS goals (not an absolute milestone) for three consecutive years. And after that, the administration budget is reduced - not the teaching budget - because the state is mandated to take over control of the school, and the state has it's own budget for that.
I find it interesting that people keep on bringing in editorials about what the act does and does not do, rather than quoting from the act directly. I guess it's because if they quoted from the act directly, they would contradict their own arguments.
What a shock.....more editorials vs pointing out the exact provisions of contention within NCLB :-\
Sirs, you might try contributing to the debate in a meaningful way as opposed to negatively attacking people who are trying to make positive contributions. I seriously doubt your last two posts are what Bt had in mind when he asked for the level of debate to be raised.
Js, if you'd bother going back in the thread, you wouldn't look so weak in this attempt to minimize my criticism. FYI, I have contributed substantial commentary and suggestions, all rebuffed because "I'm not a teacher, I can't possibly know what I'm talking about"
Js, if you'd bother going back in the thread, you wouldn't look so weak in this attempt to minimize my criticism. FYI, I have contributed substantial commentary and suggestions, all rebuffed because "I'm not a teacher, I can't possibly know what I'm talking about"
*sigh*
Obviously you can post what you like. I'm not trying to attack you or your character Sirs. You're probably as fine a person as anyone who posts here. My point is that such posts do nothing to help.
And in fairness, are you a parent?
Did I say you could not criticize, or even have an important voice? I said, "it is difficult to understand the education of a child until one is a parent."
I'm not attacking you in every post Sirs. Take it easy.
Did I say you could not criticize, or even have an important voice? I said, "it is difficult to understand the education of a child until one is a parent."
Well, with all due respect, understanding the education of a child, also requires understanding the current trend of education efforts, incl what's working and what's not.
No one is argueing that parenting and educating a child is child's play. But to bring up query's like "Have you been a teacher?", or "Do you have children?", is an apparent overt effort to not only deflect some of the criticisms being raised, but to even try to shield one from such criticism. And for some then falling back to the standard DNC talking points of how all we need are "smaller class sizes" & "more $$$".
Ami, Prince, & Bt have done an outstanding job of demonstrating how the criticisms of NCLB are largely rhetorical, that no one criticising it can bring up any specific provisions within it to say "see, right there", and instead pull up op-ed after op-ed, many from the NEA or other Democratic driven organization, full of how terrible NCLB is, and how instead we just need to "invest" more in the Public Education system.
Then, in one swoop. An idiot president comes along and decides that teachers know nothing!
I almost feel as if someone mandated that every classroom have a shiny new yardstick, and every pupil had to grow a certain amount every week.
The yardstick is the NCLB. The children are not going to measure exactly what you want them to measure; their growth and development vary and it's just not going to happen, mandate or no.
And if the President and Congress are so very concerned with children meeting educational standards, then why are private and home schools exempt?
Do they not also teach children?
Are some children more equal than others?
Is it presumed that private and home schools are "good" and public schools are "bad"?
And if the President and Congress are so very concerned with children meeting educational standards, then why are private and home schools exempt?
Do they not also teach children?
Are some children more equal than others?
Is it presumed that private and home schools are "good" and public schools are "bad"?
Schools are accredited by the state, aren't they? Even if they get no federal funding. At least that's what I've always understood.
Schools are accredited by the state, aren't they?
"Fighting against school choice" ? I wasn't doing that.
If public school students have to meet these criteria (the standardized testing) then so should all schools. Otherwise there would be a lot of underperforming schools, and we can't have that. Children's education is too important.
Isn't it?
Competition is fine. The playing field is not conducive to a fair game.
Now, on the other side of that playing field you see private schools,home schools, charter schools with no restrictions, no rushing to make sure kids read all at the same time, at the same level, etc. Basically, they have a get out of jail free card. They don't even have to GO TO JAIL.
Ok, so how is this a fair competitive field? HOw?
Provide time for programs that are MANDATED to work. And according to their own research, these program do not magically work within one year's time. It takes at least 5 years (K-5).
But, the way the law is set up, the schools must meet AYP NOW. THe sanctions, the probationary actions, the restrictive #1 and #2 ...they are slapped on us NOW. I say that is not right.
UP,
If you were A CHILD in this system, YOU would be crushed....not worried.
You are not a child in the system. You are a political message board member who THINKS he knows what is best.
Ok. i'll give you that for now.
If you were in the classroom, what would YOU DO? Do you know what it is like to be on the front lines of a classroom setting? Do you?
Take moment before you answer that if you will, please. Don't jump to a rush to assume anything.
Ok, you are a teacher in a classroom. You have been trained, with a Master's Degree in education. You have affected many lives in the past. You have studied all there is to study in terms of how a child learns.
You have applied all that you know....AND you have done so in a setting where there are 24 kids in one room, kids with issues, kids with problems that you couldn't even begin to imagine. Ok...step back....reflect. . . Don't rush yet.
You have learned all there is to learn about how a child learns....How to best teach a child...years of study...years of work....years of experience and worthwhile results.
You respond in a moments notice to a thread of posts on a message board on the DHS debategate...suddenly YOU KNOW best. Suddenly, SIRS knows best. hmmm, Ok....why?
Because you believe to be truth that the facts play out....not good enough in terms of test scores. A ha. . . THEREFORE all schools in the entire system of the USAmerican schools is a failure...
and I am going to post that "I would be worried"?
I speak from experience and knowledge. I will never give that up.
I think it's time that we all listen to the history books not only in terms of what goes on in education, but what the world has experienced in terms of WAR, ECONOMIC GROWTH, ECONOMIC FAILURES ETC ETC ...
etc.
ONE freaking size in this nation of ours....DOES NOT FIT ALL.
Now, I see. Now, I see the truth that is the failure in the thread of America.
Individual lives are at stake here. A simple law, act, or position to make things better is
BULLSHIT.
I will always remember this discussion for the fact that we haven't learned anything...not really...
Airlines, Airports, safety measures are a crock...if we don't all pull in and see to it that the details are well managed.
Terror is going to show its ugly head when we aren't looking...It has, and always will.
No different in the life of a child.
Support.
Support.
Stop resting on the bench that is political rhetoric that makes the individual win.
America----we have to win mentality?
Wrong. Too easy.
What I'm getting from some posts here is that punitive measures should be exacted upon schools, school children, and school teachers and principals in part because the schools are funded by tax dollars.
Do I have this right, or did I take away the wrong impression?
You respond in a moments notice to a thread of posts on a message board on the DHS debategate...suddenly YOU KNOW best. Suddenly, SIRS knows best. hmmm, Ok....why?
I cannot speak for Sirs, but I don't believe I claimed to know best. I gave my opinion and supported it.
ONE freaking size in this nation of ours....DOES NOT FIT ALL.
What I'm getting from some posts here is that punitive measures should be exacted upon schools, school children, and school teachers and principals in part because the schools are funded by tax dollars.
Do I have this right, or did I take away the wrong impression?
and I am going to post that "I would be worried"?
Let?s look at one example of how the public is being misled. In 2003, Texas reported that 85 percent of its 4th grade students had achieved proficiency in reading as measured by its state assessment. If I lived in Texas, I?d be feeling pretty good about an 85 percent proficiency rate. In fact, it was third highest in the nation.
Wyoming, however, reported that only 44 percent of its 4th grade students had achieved proficiency as reflected by their state assessment. If I had children in school in Wyoming, I?d be upset. Most of the general public, and parents in particular, see that Texas has almost twice as many 4th grade students reading proficiently. By far, Texas is more successful. The question must be asked, ?What is wrong with our schools in Wyoming?? ?What is Texas doing that we should all be doing??
Now, add another bit of data, the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) reading proficiency results, and the entire fa?ade of accountability comes crashing down. Texas, reporting 85 percent of its elementary students proficient in reading, shows only 28 percent of its students proficient as measured by the NAEPs. Wyoming, which administered the same NAEP exam to its students, reports more than 35 percent achieving proficient in reading. When both states use the same exam to measure reading proficiency Wyoming outperforms Texas.
The gaps between state assessments and NAEP assessments calls into question the entire process of cerifying which states, districts, and schools are meeting NCLB standards and who are not. How can states be held accountable if there is no standard method of measuring? I could be on an NCLB list of under-performing schools in Wyoming that are actually outperforming schools that are considered meeting NCLB standards in Texas. NCLB has turned into a competition to provide positive and impressive data; data that hides the reality of the state of learning in our schools.
If the scandal of overblown and misleading reading proficiency data isn?t enough; there is even a larger scandal, for, whether measured by state standards or NAEPs, the state of reading proficiency in this country is mind boggling.
?First, in several (seven) states fewer than half the students meet the state proficiency standards, and in no state do even half the students meet the NAEP national literacy standard of proficiency.? Achieving State and National Reading Goals a Long Uphill Road - Rand
Let me repeat, IN SEVEN STATES FEWER THAN HALF THE STUDENTS MEET STATE PROFICIENCY STANDARDS?
and, if we use the NAEPs as our measure, THERE IS NO STATE IN AMERICA WHERE EVEN HALF THE STUDENTS MEET THE PROFICIENCY STANDARD.
ONE freaking size in this nation of ours....DOES NOT FIT ALL.
Which is why EACH STATE comes up with it's own standards.
In addition, each state is supposed to come up with THREE standards for each grade level - advanced, proficient, and basic.
So, it seems to me that are 50 X 3 standards, or 150 standards.
But, of course, that's my "old math" talking. I'm sure someone will explain how 50 X 3 is actually "1".
So, tell that to our principal. Seems she and others in the district have forgotten that one little thing...but of course everyone is under the gun. Jobs are on the line. Yes, jobs. Principals can be fired and invited to reapply, as are teachers......that's here in our little village... and possibly in many little villages in the country...can't say for sure yep...or nope ..for mathematical certain)
We got 400 posts. We got 400 posts. What? No, I'm not gloating. I'm just saying...
What seems to be forgotten here is that even if administrators are the ones who are threatened with job loss, crap rolls downhill.
In other words, a principal in a school that's under the gun can make life hell on teachers.
But before that happens, a lot of people are made miserable: teachers and little kids. And if a principal is ruthless enough, she/he doesn't lose the school.
She/he changes answers and doesn't extend contracts to teachers who want to teach and not cheat.
Wow. Third-graders??
It's a shame that the NCLB is encouraging that schools back down from teaching science.
Given the clarity that you, Ami, and Prince have provided Bt, regarding what NCLB does mandate, and how the States are allowed to do whatever it is they deem they need to do, I was wondering the same thing
Here's an interesting one for you, Cynthia, http://www.nctaf.org/ (http://www.nctaf.org/). The site was recommended to me by someone I know who works in the department of education here in South Carolina. And that site tries (though they don't give a direct link) to point to this, http://www.teachnm.org/overview.html (http://www.teachnm.org/overview.html), about a 3-Tiered Licensure System that has apparently been adopted in New Mexico.
he seems to want to win
I have already told some people that you are a saint...a "prince of a saint".
I have already told some people that you are a saint...a "prince of a saint".
I appreciate the complement, but a saint I ain't.
attached is the report that seems to be at the botton line in terms of the 18%.
And a reason my wife and I, who would have NEVER considered moving out of state, now have to think seriously of moving out of state
Alas, we're too old, and with not enough finances to adopt. We do have 3 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/IndyStands.jpg/250px-IndyStands.jpg) "kidz". And they are homeschooled
attached is the report that seems to be at the botton line in terms of the 18%.
Interesting. They've done everything they could to reduce the number of "drop-outs" on this report. For instance, if someone moves and stops going to high school, they're not counted as a "drop out" - they just "transfered out of the system".
Regardless, the percent of graduations on this report jives closely (within a few percentage points) of the other report. The 18.4% number is only the group of students who do not continue school and continue to live in the same school district as when they were going to school. There are other categories for students who stop attending school for other reasons as well.