DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: The_Professor on September 29, 2006, 12:45:59 PM
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I wonder if it has occurred to anyone, that the outbreaks of infection in our food supply might be caused by the immense uncontrolled immigration taking place. For decades, there have been running jokes about dysentery, not drinking the water, and a whole collection of other ills associated with Mexico. In truth, whatever substance these old stories and jokes may have, when you permit huge numbers of people in, from what is essentially a third world country, you also invite in their diseases, and their interpretation of hygiene and public health. I think that it is more than a coincidence that these problems started in the produce and meat industries in which illegals are so heavily represented. Of course, it would be racist to speak of this, so nobody does. They will no more look towards illegal Mexicans as a possible source of disease, than they do towards middle easterners as a possible source of terrorism.
All of this is, of course, in addition to the huge load that illegals put on the medical and welfare systems of this country, not to mention the extra load placed upon the prison and law enforcement resources. Why do we want to do this? I have a high regard for the United States, and for it's culture (what's left of it), and do not see any advantage to transforming it into a third world country, by reintroducing problems which we have already solved a century ago. Since our alleged representatives seem unwilling to deal with this problem, we may as well begin to get used to living by third world standards. So we need to lock our doors against the increasing criminal element, not talk to the police, expect to be robbed and dominated by our government, and look forward to increasing poverty and insecurity. We also need to remember to cook all food thoroughly, and not drink the water.
I am almost glad that the World War Two veterans are, as a generation, dying off. As much as we could use people of their mettle, I am ashamed to have them see what is being done to the country for which they sacrificed so much. It seems that, unlike them, my generation is largely unwilling to fight for our country, or even to care for it. It may be that the old generation will be the last whole generation, outside of separate individuals, to be considered as traditionally American.
Depending upon what history you read, and what definitions you use Valens, Flavius Aetius, Jovian, and Theodosius, as well as others, have all been referred to as the Last Roman. What is interesting about this is that many of those so named lived decades, or even centuries before the official fall of Rome. Certainly, they are only the last Romans in retrospect, and did not perceive themselves as such. I wonder if the last American has been born yet, and if not, how far in the future does his birth lie?
You have my sympathies, by the way, and I hope that something can be done about your neck, and sinuses. I suppose that they have checked you for Lyme, and other such things. It is cheering that nothing bad was found when your head was examined. In the meantime, I always look forward to browsing your site, and appreciate that you are continuing to update. It may be, that the last American is out there somewhere reading your column.
Of interest: Of 32 emergency rooms in LA County, all but 11 seem to have closed. No private hospital can afford to have an emergency room. If you are wealthy and worried, you need to leave California.
But we are all politically correct. Or, we had better be, anyway!
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It may be that the old generation will be the last whole generation, outside of separate individuals, to be considered as traditionally American.
What a load of sentimental horse feces.
And yes, it is racist. It is speculation of a correlation with no evidence of cause and effect, just pure racial speculation. It is in fact the very definition of racism.
Mexican water isn't fit to drink in many areas because of poor water and wastewater treatment. It is not due to poor hygeine.
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All of this is, of course, in addition to the huge load that illegals put on the medical and welfare systems of this country
"Illegals" (they're human beings, try using a word that doesn't take that away from them) cannot get access to welfare. For that matter welfare barely exists anyway. The only such system an illegal alien can gain access to is emergency medical care. You may wish to deny them that, but I do not. A fellow human being deserves access to emergency medical care if they require it.
I have a high regard for the United States, and for it's culture (what's left of it)
Just say what you wish to say here. You have a high regard for white protestant middle class norms. Correct? Your parenthetical aside shows a disdain for what you perceive as the falling away of those? I doubt this has much to do with "culture."
So we need to lock our doors against the increasing criminal element, not talk to the police, expect to be robbed and dominated by our government, and look forward to increasing poverty and insecurity. We also need to remember to cook all food thoroughly, and not drink the water.
Exaggerated fear tactics. These were commonly used by Fascists (take note Sirs, the actual Fascists) in Germany to portray the Jews, Roma, Communists, and Slavs as a terrible threat to the everyday life of the honest Christian German. More racism.
I am almost glad that the World War Two veterans are, as a generation, dying off. As much as we could use people of their mettle, I am ashamed to have them see what is being done to the country for which they sacrificed so much.
Reference to a better time when everything was wonderful. Notice the line here: "what is being done to the country" which implies that the country was better off in the 1940's and 1950's prior to the "illegals" coming. This would certainly make Eco's list.
It may be that the old generation will be the last whole generation, outside of separate individuals, to be considered as traditionally American.
Notice that "traditionally American" is not defined.
But we are all politically correct. Or, we had better be, anyway
The ultimate tool and the true test of cowardice - hiding racism under the skirt of political correctness.
If you are going to be a racist, damn well be one! At least Hitler made no qualms about it. Own up to it and debate the merits of it from there. Quit hiding behind the skirt you call political correctness. It gets old seeing the right wing of this country run and hide and talk about how they can't really tell it like it is because some invisible entity called "political correctness" is going to get them.
Either be a man and own up to being a racist or don't. But don't hide behind some fake wall. That's pathetic and demeans yourself and cheapens the entire debate.
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Usually, infections can be traced to food being trucked past inspection stations with not enough inspectors on hand. In the past, truckloads of Central American produce crossed your southern border with less than one in a hundred being inspected, though the law mandated every one to be inspected. In the war between fiscal conservatives and "tax and spend" Democrats, which ones would YOU think were likeliest to have been responsible for the shortage of inspectors.
Similarly I recall back in the days of the Reagan administration ("the golden years,") the chicken industry objected to Federal regulations regulating the number of chickens that could pass by a line inspector in a minute. At the request of the chicken producers, the number was increased to speed up the assembly lines and maximize profits, but the poor inspectors, faced with these birds whizzing by at faster speeds, missed a good number of infected carcasses, sometimes with deadly results. Chickens tend to pick up traces of chickenshit, whether they are immigrant chickens or good, solid American chickens, I guess.
The moral of both stories is: when you are looking for scapegoats for the deterioration of public health, look to the Republicans and conservatives first, before you look to the immigrants.
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I am almost glad that the World War Two veterans are, as a generation, dying off. As much as we could use people of their mettle, I am ashamed to have them see what is being done to the country for which they sacrificed so much.
the truth is they are no different than the people now.
definitely no more moral than people now.
just poorer.
alot of them finally got a decent meal in the military.
people today don`t know what starvation is.
the poor then were treat much worst than todays standards
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Well you know how "those" foreigners are.
http://history1900s.about.com/od/1900s/a/typhoidmary.htm
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One of the main reasons why Americans associate Mexico with dysentary and diarrhea is that the visit Mexico City, where the tap water really is dangerous to drink. Mexico City is built on an ancient lakebed, and floats on a sea of sh*t. It is also volcanic, aqnd the water mains frequently get seepage into them.
I lived in Mexico City for two years, and rarely got sick from diarrhea, I suspect because I never drank tap water or used oit to make ice with or brushed my teeth with it. I lived in Tacubaya, which is above the Valle de Mexico, where the pipes do not normally get seepage.
I once got a horrible case of amoebic dysentary once, I think from eating a salad in Nuevo Laredo. Luckily, you can buy the very powerful drug needed to cure this (it was called Entero-Vioformo) in any drugstore without a prescription.
It is highly improbable that the e-coli spinach problem is traceable to illegals. E coli infests all kinds of sh*t, professor, even yours. Perhaps you should be picking your own spinach, however, to be on the safe side.
I could suggest an experiment to see whether you might be the cause of e-coli in your own system, if you like.
Being as you are a fundamentalist, I might remind you that disease is normally caused by demonic possession.
It's in the Book.
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Whether leagal or not , harvesters need access to sanitary facilitys .
Every now and then you hear about some operation skimping on privvys.
Could be something like that , Mexican e-coli and American e-coli are equally unwelcome on my salad , so I hope that the specific problem is found and fixed .
When it comes to immagrants and disease there are problems and perhaps the law will have to be used to slow down the flow of people who might be infected with something new ,but are leagal immagrants less likely to be sick? If they are sick,are leagal immagrants more likely to seek medical attention ?
I dont think that the Proffessor is exibiting racism , he didn't say that white immagrants should be exempted did he? Typhoid Mary herself was an Irish immagrant. The Professor might admit to being nationalist , would that be bad?
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"Illegals" ... cannot get access to welfare. For that matter welfare barely exists anyway. The only such system an illegal alien can gain access to is emergency medical care.
Because we know that an illegal alien will (who broke laws to get into the country) will never break the law against using someone else's identity for getting access to welfare, huh? After all, there are just some laws they won't break?
(they're human beings, try using a word that doesn't take that away from them)
Why does referring to them as illegal "take their humanity away from them"? Only non-humans break the law?
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Drpraved -- http://www.resist.com/other/border_patrol.swf
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Drpraved -- http://www.resist.com/other/border_patrol.swf
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I did not like that.
This is more my idea of funny.
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http://www.ocweekly.com/columns/ask-a-mexican/ask-a-mexican/19246/
(http://www.ocweekly.com/images/ink/05/19/sm19news2.jpg)
By Gustavo Arellano
Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:00 am
Illustration by Mark Dancy
Dear Mexican,
My friend and I were wondering why Mexican girls are so beautiful when they are teenagers, then over the years, they become fat, old bags?
Mark M.
Costa Mesa
Dear Gabacho,
Get your facts straight. Women raised in Mexico who migrate here maintain their beauty forever—check out pictures of silent-film goddess Dolores del RÃo, who gave men palos even into her 80s. Their hijas, on the other hand, are the ones who blow up into blimps. The difference? A Mexican mom’s 18-hour workday—the mopping and kid-rearing for other families and hers, the factory-working, and the husband’s lunch preparing—keeps the flab off; any thickness is muscle earned from repetitive work that would crumble a weightlifter. The daughters, meanwhile, are as American as you, gabacho: they’re spoiled, fat asses who party hard, overeat and don’t do quehaceres (chores) after coming home from a day at the office or Chicano Studies class because they have a Mexican to do it—their mami.
Got a spicy question about Mexicans? Ask the Mexican at garellano@ocweekly.com.
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I wonder if it has occurred to anyone, that the outbreaks of infection in our food supply might be caused by the immense uncontrolled immigration taking place. For decades, there have been running jokes about dysentery, not drinking the water, and a whole collection of other ills associated with Mexico. In truth, whatever substance these old stories and jokes may have, when you permit huge numbers of people in, from what is essentially a third world country, you also invite in their diseases, and their interpretation of hygiene and public health. I think that it is more than a coincidence that these problems started in the produce and meat industries in which illegals are so heavily represented.
I wonder if it has occured to anyone that you're basically saying we should blame the dirty Mexicans because they're dirty Mexicans. Not because we have some evidence that Mexcian immigrants have something to do with it, but because there are Mexicans here and Mexicans are dirty, backward people. So therefore, we should be blaming the Mexicans, according to you. What a load of adult male bovine excrement.
Of course, it would be racist to speak of this, so nobody does. They will no more look towards illegal Mexicans as a possible source of disease, than they do towards middle easterners as a possible source of terrorism.
Yeah, it would be racist to speak of this. At least you're almost being honest about it.
All of this is, of course, in addition to the huge load that illegals put on the medical and welfare systems of this country,
I wonder if it has occured to anyone that the problem lies with the medical and welfare systems, and not with the immigrants.
not to mention the extra load placed upon the prison and law enforcement resources. Why do we want to do this?
I wonder if it has occured to anyone that maybe the problem is with the law and the misapplication of law enforcement resources.
I have a high regard for the United States, and for it's culture (what's left of it),
What would that culture be, exactly? I was under the impression that a part of America's culture was openness to immigrants and the opportunity for people from anywhere to come here and build a better life because of our respect for freedom. Did we adopt a culture of elitist asininity and no one told me?
and do not see any advantage to transforming it into a third world country, by reintroducing problems which we have already solved a century ago. Since our alleged representatives seem unwilling to deal with this problem, we may as well begin to get used to living by third world standards.
Why? Are we going to stop doing what we do now because there are foreigners in our midst? Why would that happen? Foreigners from poorer countries have been coming here for decades at the very least, and we haven't stopped yet. In fact, we've gotten better.
So we need to lock our doors against the increasing criminal element, not talk to the police, expect to be robbed and dominated by our government, and look forward to increasing poverty and insecurity.
How is that any different than if we threw out all the Mexicans, closed off the borders with walls and intense law enforcement presence and identification documents/technology to make sure they stayed out?
We also need to remember to cook all food thoroughly, and not drink the water.
Yeah, cause the Mexicans are gonna make us all forget about hygene and healthy food preparations with their secret microwave mind scramblers... (Yeah, that was sarcasm.)
I am almost glad that the World War Two veterans are, as a generation, dying off. As much as we could use people of their mettle, I am ashamed to have them see what is being done to the country for which they sacrificed so much.
You mean like my grandparents? Let's see, my father's parents were first generation Americans born to German immigrants. My mother's parents were only a few generations away from their Scot/Irish immigrant ancestors. As I recall from my history classes, back then some folks were all worried that immigrant folks were coming into America and ruining the country. But those immigrants produced the W.W. II veterans you're lauding now. Seems to me, one of the things that my grandfathers (W.W. II veterans) fought for was to keep America a place where immigrants and people of different cultures were welcome to come and live and make their lives better. I don't recall W.W. II being about keeping out foreigners. But maybe you think the Japanese internment camps were the right thing to do.
It seems that, unlike them, my generation is largely unwilling to fight for our country, or even to care for it. It may be that the old generation will be the last whole generation, outside of separate individuals, to be considered as traditionally American.
Depending upon what history you read, and what definitions you use Valens, Flavius Aetius, Jovian, and Theodosius, as well as others, have all been referred to as the Last Roman. What is interesting about this is that many of those so named lived decades, or even centuries before the official fall of Rome. Certainly, they are only the last Romans in retrospect, and did not perceive themselves as such. I wonder if the last American has been born yet, and if not, how far in the future does his birth lie?
Traditionally American? What does that even mean? Traditionally American according to New York City standards or the standards of Cheyenne, Wyoming? Year 1780 American standards or Y2K American standards? Anyway, if it really is all downhill from here, then you must be the "Last American". You should alert the press.
Of interest: Of 32 emergency rooms in LA County, all but 11 seem to have closed. No private hospital can afford to have an emergency room.
And clearly there is no other reason for that except them dirty Mexicans... (Okay, yeah, I was being sarcastic again.)
But we are all politically correct. Or, we had better be, anyway!
I wonder if it has occured to anyone that for some people not making racist comments and/or not espousing elitist commentary about "American culture" has nothing to do with concern for political correctness. Some folks just don't think that way, and so they would never say such things.
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Because we know that an illegal alien will (who broke laws to get into the country) will never break the law against using someone else's identity for getting access to welfare, huh? After all, there are just some laws they won't break?
A misdemeanor. I'm sure you have evidence to back up your claim? Let's see the report that shows how many illegal aliens abuse the welfare system in this country.
I wonder if it has occured to anyone that for some people not making racist comments and/or not espousing elitist commentary about "American culture" has nothing to do with concern for political correctness. Some folks just don't think that way, and so they would never say such things.
UP, we disagree on a number of issues, but I completely agree here.
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"Illegals" ... cannot get access to welfare. For that matter welfare barely exists anyway. The only such system an illegal alien can gain access to is emergency medical care.
Because we know that an illegal alien will (who broke laws to get into the country) will never break the law against using someone else's identity for getting access to welfare, huh? After all, there are just some laws they won't break?
Ironically enough, the immigrants who use fake IDs to get work and access to welfare are usually also having their paychecks taxed, just like the rest of us. Which, imo, kinda makes meaningless the whole "they're getting something they don't pay for" argument.
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I used to get this kinda flak a few years ago
people screaming I got SARS and stuff
I`d just sneeze on them .
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I used to get this kinda flak a few years ago
people screaming I got SARS and stuff
I`d just sneeze on them .
Good man.
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Just for clarification, I did not voice this opinion. I retrieved it from www.pournelle.com. Some of it I do indeed agree with; most I do not. For example, one of the reasons our great nation is so propserous is the true benefits derived from immigrants, not only their labor but their culture.
Regardless, thorough debates on issues such as immigration and its effects, both for good or ill, should be encouraged and nurtured. Do you not agree?
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Just for clarification, I did not voice this opinion. I retrieved it from www.pournelle.com. Some of it I do indeed agree with; most I do not. For example, one of the reasons our great nation is so propserous is the true benefits derived from immigrants, not only their labor but their culture.
Regardless, thorough debates on issues such as immigration and its effects, both for good or ill, should be encouraged and nurtured. Do you not agree?
I was perplexed more by your reply #9 , but I am glad to see that you were just bringing it in for the discussion.
Immagration can indeed be a conduit for disease , someday we might see something really serious and new circle the world on aircraft before we are hardly aware of it , something like what happened to us with AIDS , HIV but perhaps even worse .
But this in not just a problem of immagration, but also one of tourism and business travel.
The Red Cross didn't want my blood for a decade after I left Africa , but I did not feel discriminated against , some precautions are reasonable .
The core of this discussion should be the diffrence between precautions that make sense and are reasonable and actions that are poor precautions , unreasonable , ineffective or perhaps unfair.
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Just for clarification, I did not voice this opinion. I retrieved it from www.pournelle.com. Some of it I do indeed agree with; most I do not.
Perhaps you should consider placing disclaimers like this up front.
Regardless, thorough debates on issues such as immigration and its effects, both for good or ill, should be encouraged and nurtured. Do you not agree?
Sure. But I don't see why we need to resort to posting racist and elitist excrement in the process.
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You are attempting to set the terms for "racist", etc. Racism is derogatory comments, actions, words and so on against another race. To expand to include attitudes against another nationality, for example, is totally inaccurate and succumbs to the current political correctness in vogue today. This resetting of terminology, as is revisionist history, is continuing as the cultureal and political landscape is changing. This, however, does not means we have to "buy into" this transition.
I did not see anythnig racist in the post. I did see some concern by the author about the effects, primarily in the disease arena, of immigration. This concern coud also be phrased in a similar vein via Plane's example, or by you going out of the country, residing in anothger country for awhile and then returning back here. Same issue. Nothnig to do with racism.
An aspect I do agree with in the article is the concern of how illegal immigrants may be putting strains on the medical community. The issue, of course, is how do they pay for this so the strain is at least lessened. Maybe they can somehow be taxed?
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You are attempting to set the terms for "racist", etc. Racism is derogatory comments, actions, words and so on against another race. To expand to include attitudes against another nationality, for example, is totally inaccurate and succumbs to the current political correctness in vogue today. This resetting of terminology, as is revisionist history, is continuing as the cultureal and political landscape is changing. This, however, does not means we have to "buy into" this transition.
Or, in this case making baseless accusations on others based entirely on the color of their skin and their national origin. It is still racism and not for one second do I believe that you don't wholeheartedly endorse the article you posted Professor. In fact, you still defend it. Once again we see someone hiding behind the skirt of "political correctness" - this mythical entity that supposedly keeps people from speaking what they really feel.
These Mexican immigrants are poor, uneducated, dark-skinned (they tend to face racism in Mexico too as with most Latin American countries where the lighter-skinned European/Spanish communities are far wealthier), speak Spanish, and mostly Catholic. The article is basically a standard extension of the "dirty Mexican" myth. It is no different than the garbage put out against the Roma people in European nations in the past. It is fear of difference, which is the essence of racism.
If you believe it, fine. But stop hiding behind "political correctness" or some other bull. Be honest and say you're a racist.
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You are attempting to set the terms for "racist", etc.
I attempted nothing of the sort. The author of the article, whoever that is, used the word racist, and in my reply I followed suit. If you have a problem with using the term racist in this context, take it up with wherever you got the article.
Racism is derogatory comments, actions, words and so on against another race. To expand to include attitudes against another nationality, for example, is totally inaccurate and succumbs to the current political correctness in vogue today. This resetting of terminology, as is revisionist history, is continuing as the cultureal and political landscape is changing. This, however, does not means we have to "buy into" this transition.
I'll be happy to call it xenophobia, irrational prejudice, or just plain bigotry if you prefer. Makes little difference to me what you want to call it. It's wrong and disgusting regardless of the name. To paraphrase Shakespeare, excrement by any other name would stink as much.
I did not see anythnig racist in the post. I did see some concern by the author about the effects, primarily in the disease arena, of immigration. This concern coud also be phrased in a similar vein via Plane's example, or by you going out of the country, residing in anothger country for awhile and then returning back here. Same issue. Nothnig to do with racism.
Xenophobia perhaps. The author of the article was trying to place the blame, as I said before, on the dirty Mexicans because they're dirty Mexicans. Not because we have some evidence that Mexican immigrants have something to do with it, but because there are Mexicans here and Mexicans are dirty, backward people. He wasn't talking about concern for the health of Mexican immigrants. He was trying to connect directly the health issues in the food supply to Mexicans, whom he apparently considered dirty, diseased people. And he apparently believes that the Mexicans, by virtue of the fact that they are here and not being run out of the country, are going to drag us all into Third World living conditions. Racism, xenophobia, bigotry, whatever you want to call it, it is not an expression of concern for the Mexicans.
An aspect I do agree with in the article is the concern of how illegal immigrants may be putting strains on the medical community. The issue, of course, is how do they pay for this so the strain is at least lessened. Maybe they can somehow be taxed?
The notion of immigrants putting a strain on the medical system is a bogus issue with little connection to reality. It is a convenient argument that helps make the immigrants into scapegoats for a problem that is no one's fault but our own. Every immigrant with a paycheck, whether they are here legally or not, is having his or her pay taxed. Every immigrant who buys food, clothing, cars, whatever from a retail establishment or the like is paying taxes. The notion that they all somehow escape paying taxes and get the benefits of our overbloated welfare and medical systems for nothing is either ignorant or scare-tactic propaganda, and therefore worthless. The problems with our medical system are of our own making, not theirs.
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This is wonderful. The Mexicans think WE are the infected ones and they are probly right.LMFAO
:D
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-lettuce12oct12,1,7518265.story?coll=la-headlines-business
Mexico's Ban on U.S. Lettuce Yields Anger
Trade groups protest the blocking of shipments after an E. coli-related recall by a Central California farm.
By Jerry Hirsch
Times Staff Writer
October 12, 2006
Farm interests from the Salinas Valley to Washington reacted angrily Wednesday to a ban on U.S. lettuce imports by Mexico.
"This is an outrageous step that has no basis at all in science or food safety," said Tom Stenzel, president of the United Fresh Fruit and Vegetable Assn. in Washington.
The Mexican Ministry of Health on Tuesday blocked U.S. lettuce after the voluntary recall two days earlier by a Central California farm of more than 8,500 cartons of green-leaf lettuce. Nunes Co. of Salinas had recalled the lettuce after discovering E. coli bacteria in irrigation water used on the crop.
Tests found that the contamination was a generic form of E. coli, which is common in water and soil around the world and generally not harmful to humans. A toxic strain of the bacteria had recently contaminated Salinas Valley spinach, sickening nearly 200 people and killing three. None of the recalled lettuce was headed for Mexico.
"The produce industry is being punished for being careful," Stenzel said.
Froylan Gracia, agricultural counselor at the Mexican Embassy in Washington, defended the ban, saying that "countries can take actions that they think safeguard the lives of their citizens even if it seems subjective."
He said regulators from both countries were working to resolve the issue.
But that was of little comfort to Salinas Valley farmers whose business is laboring to rebound from the spinach scare.
"Mexico has just added to our overall woes with consumer perception," said Bob Perkins, executive director of the Monterey County Farm Bureau.
The state's $250-million spinach business "remains really down," he said.
Perkins said growers were reporting that sales of other forms of bagged produce also had dipped, but he could not put a dollar figure on the decline.
If not for the potential effects on the buying habits of American shoppers, the lettuce ban itself should have little economic fallout.
Mexico is not a major buyer of U.S. lettuce, purchasing $8.3 million of the crop last year. California produces $1.7 billion of lettuce a year, with about $1 billion coming from Monterey County.
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it`s happened before
europe quite often reject u.s. meat
despite most cases of madcow happens outside of the u.s.
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Drpraved -- http://www.resist.com/other/border_patrol.swf
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That's pretty bad. I would go with "DEPRAVED" as a description for that cartoon, or whatever it was supposed to be.
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Sorry, I misspelled it. :-)
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Sorry, I misspelled it. :-)
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I don't care about the misspelling. What interests me is if you do or do not agree with the views of the cartoon.
What is "depraved"?
The cartoon?
Or the people it depicts?
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Depraved, the cartoon is.
See, this gets back to a problem in builidng a fence along the border.
People traffickers will find a way to get over/under/around it.Then, what are you left with? Shooting folks as they come across the border? We simply cannot do that. If we do this, we are the ones DEPRAVED. Where are we the nas a compassionate society?
We need to find a way to address this issue CONSTRUCTIVELY. I am not intelligenct enough to figure it out, maybre someone can. Maybe one of you?