Author Topic: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)  (Read 25808 times)

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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2008, 11:07:58 AM »
The corn was not theirs, nor did the bread belong to David and his men, yet Jesus advocates taking it anyway.

===================================
Jesus might not have been all that respectful of private property, either.

He considers eating some figs fro a tree (but it was out of season, so he just got mad).

Nowhere does he mention asking the owner if he could eat any figs.

He removes demons from a madman and installs them into some swine, and they go mad and run into the Sea of Galilee and drown.

Nowhere does it mention that the owner of said swine was compensated.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

_JS

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2008, 11:08:36 AM »
Js, seriously, I can't have this conversation with you, if you're going to continue to insist that Christ would support the taking from 1 to give to another.  Taxing is forcibly taking from someone, and using their $$ for someone else.  All with the "best intentions" of course   ::)   That is very UN Christ like.  Yes, we are to help our fellow man, and we should.  But it's a CHOICE.  The requirement of helping our fellow man, at risk of penalty, is in no way, consistent with any doctrince, or more markedly, any EXAMPLE that Christ performed.  Christ helped his fellow man and performed miracles because he chose to, NOT because he had to.  Are you grasping the difference, yet??

As I prompted one of our devoted Atheists, I defy you to present us some examples of Christ TAKING from someone to give to another, in the pursuit of taking care of our fellow man.  Please, show us

Sirs, why are you making this conditional upon your definition of taxation? Why are you limiting how man can help ease the suffering of his fellow man?

Of course Christ never spoke of modern welfare economics or free-market theories. He never drew a Laffer Cruve in the sands of Judea. I expect that He would want His people to form a society that did their best to follow His intentions. You'll note that Christ often speaks of helping the poor. The only parable with a named character and a vision of the afterlife is about a man who never took care of a beggar at his own door. Do you remember what he asked of Abraham and what Abraham said in reply?

Christ never said for His people to come together and invade other nations. He never said to gather men together and deprive them of sensory inputs then attach electrodes to their genitalia to shock them. He never said to support racism (in fact he has an entire parable against it) and he never said to build walls to block out one's neighbors (quite the opposite actually).

He did say this (Matthew 25):

31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'
37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'
40 And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'
44 Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'
45 He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'
46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." [/quote]

Notice the words in bold (highlighted by me, of course). Are those singular, or plural? Do you notice that they are not addressing singular individuals, but "nations?" What does this mean to you?


I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2008, 11:25:57 AM »

31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

=====================================================================
This is somewhat weird: he says they will be separated LIKE goats and sheep, the in th next sentence, they become sheep and goats.

Are the sheep the nappy-headed, yet more esteemed Blacks, who are placed to the right (an honored position).

Are the goats the straight-haired White folks, who are placed to the left (a less honored position)?

Someone needs a better editor here. There are mixed metaphors all over the place.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

The_Professor

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2008, 11:33:17 AM »
So, are you willing to take the risk that Jesus DIDN'T want us to use government to ease suffering?

Are you willing to risk eternal damnation simply for some devotion to some unchristian ideology?

Your second question is easily answered. The answer is unequivocally "YES." God sets the rules. It is everyone's personal choice whether to accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior and therefore go to Heaven when they die. See John 14:6. I believe that verse is very clear on this subject.
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sirs

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2008, 11:44:35 AM »
Js, seriously, I can't have this conversation with you, if you're going to continue to insist that Christ would support the taking from 1 to give to another.  Taxing is forcibly taking from someone, and using their $$ for someone else.  All with the "best intentions" of course   ::)   That is very UN Christ like.  Yes, we are to help our fellow man, and we should.  But it's a CHOICE.  The requirement of helping our fellow man, at risk of penalty, is in no way, consistent with any doctrince, or more markedly, any EXAMPLE that Christ performed.  Christ helped his fellow man and performed miracles because he chose to, NOT because he had to.  Are you grasping the difference, yet??

As I prompted one of our devoted Atheists, I defy you to present us some examples of Christ TAKING from someone to give to another, in the pursuit of taking care of our fellow man.  Please, show us

Sirs, why are you making this conditional upon your definition of taxation? Why are you limiting how man can help ease the suffering of his fellow man?

Because, the mindset of taxing others to "help our fellow man" is LITERALLY taking something that belongs to someone, and giving it to someone else, based on some arbitrary decision that someone else needs it.  That's not my definition, that is the definition.  And as we call can see, you have zip examples of Christ EVER doing that, or even preaching that.  And that is the point.  Helping our fellow man is definately something that exemplifies the teachings of Christ.  MANDATING that help by threat of force, coercion or taking something that doesn't belong to them, NEVER was part of Christ's teachings.  Simple as that

And why the deflection in bringing in Government Foreign policy & National Defense issues stipulated in the Constitution, not the bible, as what the President can and can't do, merely shows how weak your original premice of a pro-taxation Christ is
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2008, 11:45:25 AM »
So, are you willing to take the risk that Jesus DIDN'T want us to use government to ease suffering?

Are you willing to risk eternal damnation simply for some devotion to some unchristian ideology?

Your second question is easily answered. The answer is unequivocally "YES." God sets the rules. It is everyone's personal choice whether to accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior and therefore go to Heaven when they die. See John 14:6. I believe that verse is very clear on this subject.

I think that the purpose of life is not to seek heavenly reward. That is a false transaction.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

_JS

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2008, 11:48:52 AM »
Js, seriously, I can't have this conversation with you, if you're going to continue to insist that Christ would support the taking from 1 to give to another.  Taxing is forcibly taking from someone, and using their $$ for someone else.  All with the "best intentions" of course   ::)   That is very UN Christ like.  Yes, we are to help our fellow man, and we should.  But it's a CHOICE.  The requirement of helping our fellow man, at risk of penalty, is in no way, consistent with any doctrince, or more markedly, any EXAMPLE that Christ performed.  Christ helped his fellow man and performed miracles because he chose to, NOT because he had to.  Are you grasping the difference, yet??

As I prompted one of our devoted Atheists, I defy you to present us some examples of Christ TAKING from someone to give to another, in the pursuit of taking care of our fellow man.  Please, show us

Sirs, why are you making this conditional upon your definition of taxation? Why are you limiting how man can help ease the suffering of his fellow man?

Because, the mindset of taxing others to "help our fellow man" is LITERALLY taking something that belongs to someone, and giving it to someone else, based on some arbitrary decision that someone else needs it.  That's not my definition, that is the definition.  And as we call can see, you have zip examples of Christ EVER doing that, or even preaching that.  And that is the point.  Helping our fellow man is definately something that exemplifies the teachings of Christ.  MANDATING that help by threat of force, coercion or taking something that doesn't belong to them, NEVER was part of Christ's teachings.  Simple as that

And why the deflection in bringing in Government Foreign policy & National Defense issues stipulated in the Constitution, not the bible, as what the President can and can't do, merely shows how weak your original premice of a pro-taxation Christ is

No, that is not the definition it is your definition.

And your second paragraph is just basic attack. My argument is not weak. Christ would clearly prefer a society of Christians helping the poor than to attack other nations, similate drowning, using electroshock, and contructing fences to keep out the poor of other peoples. Surely you can see that?

Now answer my other questions. I provided evidence, speak to it.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2008, 11:51:13 AM »
So, are you willing to take the risk that Jesus DIDN'T want us to use government to ease suffering?  Are you willing to risk eternal damnation simply for some devotion to some unchristian ideology?

Your second question is easily answered. The answer is unequivocally "YES." God sets the rules. It is everyone's personal choice whether to accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior and therefore go to Heaven when they die. See John 14:6. I believe that verse is very clear on this subject.

I think that the purpose of life is not to seek heavenly reward. That is a false transaction.

And I don't think the Professor was implying such, in the way of rewards once reaching there.  The purpose in life is to REACH heaven.  THAT is the reward.  And it's our actions, OUR CHOICES, the paths we take here on earth, that determines that, and only decided by God if its been enough to enter his kingdom.  Then again, you already knew that
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2008, 11:52:27 AM »
Quote
The purpose in life is to REACH heaven.

That's the purpose of life?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

The_Professor

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2008, 11:56:06 AM »
So, are you willing to take the risk that Jesus DIDN'T want us to use government to ease suffering?

Are you willing to risk eternal damnation simply for some devotion to some unchristian ideology?

Your second question is easily answered. The answer is unequivocally "YES." God sets the rules. It is everyone's personal choice whether to accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior and therefore go to Heaven when they die. See John 14:6. I believe that verse is very clear on this subject.

I think that the purpose of life is not to seek heavenly reward. That is a false transaction.

Sorry -- didn't see where Jesus said this. He simply said He is The Way. Do you dispute this claim?
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                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

_JS

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2008, 12:01:15 PM »
Sorry -- didn't see where Jesus said this. He simply said He is The Way. Do you dispute this claim?

No.

But you don't follow Christ to seek a reward, correct?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

The_Professor

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2008, 12:04:41 PM »
Sorry -- didn't see where Jesus said this. He simply said He is The Way. Do you dispute this claim?

No.

But you don't follow Christ to seek a reward, correct?

No, you seek Him because you Love Him. You do, of course, want Him to say when you meet Him in person "Good and faithful servant". And, of course, along the way, you enter the bounds of James' "Faith without works is dead", which, I beleive, is really the root of this thread.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2008, 12:23:41 PM by The_Professor »
***************************
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

sirs

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2008, 12:06:48 PM »
Js, once again, you provide scripute that's not being refuted.  Yes Christ wanted us to work together, but NOT by way of being forced to do so.  THAT is NOT CONSISTENT WITH ANY TEACHINGS OF CHRIST, NOR DEMONSTRATED BY ANY EXAMPLES OF HIM DOING SUCH
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2008, 12:16:06 PM »
Js, once again, you provide scripute that's not being refuted.  Yes Christ wanted us to work together, but NOT by way of being forced to do so.  THAT is NOT CONSISTENT WITH ANY TEACHINGS OF CHRIST, NOR DEMONSTRATED BY ANY EXAMPLES OF HIM DOING SUCH

Answer the questions.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

_JS

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2008, 12:18:50 PM »
No, you seek Him because you Love Him. You do, of course, want him to say when you meet Him in person "Good and faithful servant". And, of course, along the way, you enter the bounds of James' "Faith without works is dead", which, I beleive, is really the root of this thread.

I agree Professor. The purpose of man is to love God (the Holy Trinity). We should not ask, or presume reward from Him. We certainly have not earned it. We also need to be very careful in condemning others as I've seen both you and Sirs do. Let us not forget the Prodigal Son.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.