California judge says no to homeschooling

[Xavier_Onassis]

Hint, it's not "more money" that'll fix it.  Been tried already, year after year after year after year after year.


Yeah, sure. Teachers can't even afford to buy homes in the communities in which they live.
The money they pay teachers does not even keep up with inflation.
I have never gotten a raise of more than 4% in thirty years. Once we got 4%. all other years it was in the 1-3% range.
There wwere five years we got no raise at all. You, sirs, are full of crap.Hint, it's not "more money" that'll fix it.  Been tried already, year after year after year after year after year. You do not know what the hell you are talking about. Really.

You long for the day when you could prevent the NEA from even existing, and we can go back to awarding one Best Teacher of the year a WHOLE THOUSAND DOLLARS/

[sirs]

Hint, it's not "more money" that'll fix it.  Been tried already, year after year after year after year after year.

Yeah, sure. Teachers can't even afford to buy homes in the communities in which they live.

Well, then let's let them keep more of the money taken from them by the Unions, increase the size and scope of the Bush tax cuts, and at the suggestion of those who say CEO's need to take pay cuts to give more to their employees, let's have the Union heads take some substantial pay cuts, and spread out their $$$'s for the down-on-their luck teachers.

and we won't even start touching on the egregious waste and abuse of monies they already get.  I referenced a story just released recently about the LA Unified school district's hopelessly broken computer payroll system, where some teachers who have died, are still getting pay checks.....a year later.  Fix those things 1st, then come back to  we tax payers for still more money

[Universe Prince]

The money they pay teachers does not even keep up with inflation.
I have never gotten a raise of more than 4% in thirty years. Once we got 4%. all other years it was in the 1-3% range.
There wwere five years we got no raise at all. You, sirs, are full of crap.Hint, it's not "more money" that'll fix it.  Been tried already, year after year after year after year after year. You do not know what the hell you are talking about. Really.

No, actually he is correct. More money in the system is not the answer. That teachers should be paid more does not mean the system needs more money. For example here in my local school district, they have been getting extra money from the federal government because the school system here is one of the worst in the country, and they have been spending and spending on fancy new schools all over the place, and then they complained that they don't have enough money left to provide books for every student. The problem isn't a lack of funds. The problem is money management. The department of education here has spent so much money on things like coat hooks and architectural details that they've lost focus for what they really need to be doing. As best I can determine, this is a systemic problem with education in this country. Provide more money, and rather than spend it on teachers and education, it gets spent on administrators and swimming pools and tangential details. And states that spend more per student, like say New York, are not producing better educated students than other states, like say Utah. So the answer is obviously not more money.

By the way, last I checked, the average teacher salary for public schools was somewhere between $40,000 and $50,000. And last I checked, that is not poverty. From where I sit, $40,000 looks pretty good.

You long for the day when you could prevent the NEA from even existing, and we can go back to awarding one Best Teacher of the year a WHOLE THOUSAND DOLLARS/

I can't speak for Sirs, but while I would not try to prevent the NEA from existing, I wish I could prevent them from continuing to be part of the problem.

[Universe Prince]

Another reason more money isn't the solution, because it won't stop nonsense like this:

To soothe the bruised egos of educators and children in lackluster schools, Massachusetts officials are now pushing for kinder, gentler euphemisms for failure. Instead of calling these schools "underperforming," the Board of Education is considering labeling them as "Commonwealth priority," to avoid poisoning teacher and student morale. Schools in the direst straits, now known as "chronically underperforming," would get the more urgent but still vague label of "priority one." The board has spent parts of more than three meetings in recent months debating the linguistic merits and tone set by the terms after a handful of superintendents from across the state complained that the label underperforming unfairly casts blame on educators, hinders the recruitment of talented teachers, and erodes students' self-esteem. [...] Joseph Burke, Springfield superintendent, said that while he is not crazy about any label, he would prefer "priority one," because "It sounds nicer." [...] "When schools are labeled as underachieving, I don't see what it serves other than just to call them out," he said. "And it creates this antagonistic nature of, 'Well, you did something bad, and we're going to punish you for it.' . . . When the town hears underperforming, the average person thinks these students are underperforming." But the reality is that Randolph students are underperforming, according to state benchmarks. More than half of third-graders are not proficient in math and reading. More than 40 percent of 10th-graders don't perform at grade level in English and math.

Whole thing at http://www.boston.com/news/education/k_12/mcas/articles/2008/03/22/seeking_a_kinder_word_for_failure/.

Is it just me, or would it make more sense to help the self-esteem of students by focusing on getting them educated rather than making sure they don't get their feelings hurt?

[sirs]

Oh good gravy   

[Universe Prince]

Oh good gravy

Okay, but remember, you asked for it: http://www.gourmet-food-revolution.com/brown-gravy-recipe.html.

[fatman]

Okay, but remember, you asked for it: http://www.gourmet-food-revolution.com/brown-gravy-recipe.html.

That doesn't look that good.  Good gravy is made with pan drippings, reux, and beef/chicken/turkey base.  I've never put jelly in gravy, that's just too odd for me.

[Universe Prince]

Okay, but remember, you asked for it: http://www.gourmet-food-revolution.com/brown-gravy-recipe.html.

That doesn't look that good.  Good gravy is made with pan drippings, reux, and beef/chicken/turkey base.  I've never put jelly in gravy, that's just too odd for me.

I did a quick search for gravy that uses stock. If doesn't start with stock, it isn't gravy; it's just sauce. And it does use the drippings. It just leaves them in the pan. Though I'm not sure why the recipe says to drain off the fat. Why would anyone want to get rid of the good stuff? My guess is the redcurrant jelly is to add some sugar and fruit, which some people like. I can live without it.

A tip for eliminating lumps from gravy or white sauce, take the pan off the heat when you add in the flour. I don't understand why this works, but it does. Add small amount of flour at a time, with the pan off the heat source, and the flour blends with the fat and liquid much better.

Now if I could figure out a decent way to make a decent cheese sauce with swiss cheese, I'd... what? I'm off the topic? Oh.

[Cynthia]

 

Cheesy!

Still more to the subject than a armchair dip and chip view.

Feeling good, valued teachers, valued children's level of performance and MOST OF ALL


Good old fashioned.....engagment with teacher/student/subject.

UP...I think you are wise beyond your years....You're quite the old timer in this land of debate gate arena....but the bottom line is what really happens with in the classroom. When you critcize "feeling good" about self and eduation..that isn't to be laughed at. There is a critical element in the teaching science that is only enhanced with such a reality. Children who do not feel good about themselves, sink ...fast. You would never have risen to your level of a debate champ without that boosted self esteem, I guess.
IT's a joke ..urban legand to think that "feeling good" is a crock. It's not.

Ok, I am not going to ask you this...Have you been in a classroom setting, lately?
But, I ask you...Have you..ok I ask you.
I will fight against all who sit and project their "idea" of education when, in fact, they have no idea of all the factors involved.
There is a "front line" in the classroom. I found that out about ten years ago. There are grunts, there are leaders, and there are arm chair generals.

But, make cheese. Make Queso...I love a good cheesy inference.

I'm all for the dippin' fun.

[sirs]

It's amazing some of the tangents that can spring forth from one of these threads

[Cynthia]

It's amazing some of the tangents that can spring forth from one of these threads

I agree.
Keep weaving, Sirs.
 

[Universe Prince]

UP...I think you are wise beyond your years....You're quite the old timer in this land of debate gate arena....

Thank you.

but the bottom line is what really happens with in the classroom. When you critcize "feeling good" about self and eduation..that isn't to be laughed at. There is a critical element in the teaching science that is only enhanced with such a reality. Children who do not feel good about themselves, sink ...fast.

That is not what I criticize, though I can see why you might think so. I am all for students feeling good and having good self-esteem. And I do understand that is important in the education process. What I criticize is not caring about the self-esteem of students, but the apparent placement of self-esteem ahead of education in priorities. The student should gain some self-esteem in the education process not gain a little education in the self-esteem boosting process. School should be about education, not about preventing students from feeling bad. If Johnny can't read on a 10th grade level when he graduates from the 12th grade, the school failed him regardless of how high his self-esteem might be.

You would never have risen to your level of a debate champ without that boosted self esteem, I guess.

Oh you might be surprised.

IT's a joke ..urban legand to think that "feeling good" is a crock. It's not.

I don't think it's a crock. I do think it should not be the top priority for schools, though it seems increasingly to be so. Many schools do not allow the game of tag any more because it supposedly hurts students' self-esteem. Many schools have non-competitive sports, where no score is kept and therefore no one looses (but then, by my reckoning, no one actually wins either) because loosing is supposedly harmful to the students' self-esteem. I see this as bass ackwards. Trying to prevent students from learning what it means to lose sometimes does not help them as people or help their self-esteem. It establishes a false notion that failing at some task is always and necessarily bad, and it removes from students' self-esteem the support that comes from learning to get over a loss or a failure and move forward. It's a detriment to children and to the learning process in general. So no, feeling good is not a crock, but it not what the end goal of school should be either.

Ok, I am not going to ask you this...Have you been in a classroom setting, lately?

Not in public school, but yes, I have.

But, I ask you...Have you..ok I ask you.

Uh, okay, so, um, huh?

I will fight against all who sit and project their "idea" of education when, in fact, they have no idea of all the factors involved.

I've experienced more than a couple of different forms of education. And I've talked to people who teach in various formats (school teachers, home schoolers and so on), and I have some idea of the factors involved. I'm not saying any part of teaching is easy. It's a difficult job, and I know full well that there is more to it than showing up from 8:00 to 3:00 every day. But when I see that something like 40% (I don't know the current percentage of the top of my head) of 12th graders were unable to pass a 10th grade English test, I think there is something seriously wrong with the education system. And I honestly do not think more of the same is the way to fix it. I don't believe we need the federal government to establish standardized tests and all that stuff. I believe we need innovation in schools from the ground up, not regulations from the top down.

I believe we can improve schools, improve education, and improve the self-esteem of the students, but not without some real effort to open the system up to innovation. What I see, and your perspective may be different, is that school boards and teachers' unions are, in general, opposed to innovation and any any change that doesn't give them more power. And that, more than any other single thing is at the root of the problem.

School boards and teachers' unions, and the like, in general seem to want to take power away from parents and any one who wants to improve the schools. This is why we see from school boards and teachers' unions such strong opposition to school vouchers, to school competition, to charter schools, to homeschooling, et cetera. This is 180 degrees from the way things ought to be, imo. The school boards and the teachers' unions should be the vanguard for ideas of innovation about schools, for making sure that schools are pushed to be the best centers of education they can be, and making sure parents have all the power to decide where their child goes to school.

I'm not saying all or even most teachers are bad. I'm saying the system is broken and resistant to the change it so desperately needs. I'm not saying self-esteem is unimportant. I'm saying teach the children so that they learn, and the self-esteem will follow. I'm not saying let's give up on public schools. I'm saying let's get them to do more than coddle and enforce the status quo. Passing Johnny who hasn't learned to read at his grade level because we don't want hurt Johnny's self-esteem is ultimately going to do both Johnny and his self-esteem more harm than good. I don't say you shouldn't fight as you explained, but I'm also not going to apologize for looking at a system that seems clearly to be in much need of repair and calling it broken. I'm not, however, trying to fight against you. I think we could and should be on the same side.

[Universe Prince]

It's amazing some of the tangents that can spring forth from one of these threads

Tangents? It's all connected, brother. We're all connected. Everything is all connected. It's, like, all a big ocean of life, brother. Learn to accept it, man, for what it is. Peace, brother. Groovy. Hoopy. Grok it.

[sirs]

Ummmm, ok

LOL

[Cynthia]

Sirs,

You will never know what's what in all of this, because you refuse to see.

You are in the dark...and yet You continue to bark.

Your passion to prove wrong only hurts our children., hands down.

Just today ---
David McCullough on PBS today...one of the brightest authors or our day. He has written so many books.

He told Charlie Rose on his program  that if this country loses sight of teaching the arts and music/drama and dance to its youth in the public schools....there will be a severe injustice.

Gary...currently, we are NOT ALLOWED TO TEACH SUCH THINGS in the public schools. Nor are we "allowed" to teach science and social studies. I posted that point..and the fact that it is not just in New MExico.
You refuse to hear me.

That's just the tip of the ice berg, dear man.

The NCLB ACT has managed to do away with quality. Bottom line.

You are not in the classroom. You bash the PS system, and you rest on some sort of past evidence that has nothing to do with the crap that goes on in our system.... and yet every one of our young minds be they in the ghetto or inner city enviromments and behond, all deserve better.

They are getting less and less of a quality education each month...as long as the act continues as is. The mandates force teachers to teach only what the powers that be...feel important. RRR's

I am announcing right now...that it must be altered for the better. That's all.

I want QUALTIY education to return to our children.

Currently, the way it is set up..that is not happening.

You can argue all the damn night and day, but you will never understand what is really happening in the classrooms of many cities in this nation. You refuse. That's your right.

YOu are arrogant and lately, you are rude. You are petty and you are not going to understand. I frankly, don't give a damn anymore. 


I am here to tell you that there are situations that prevent..PREVENT children from learning because of that act.Not support children....keep children from moving forward.


and...and it has NOTHING to do with teacher's jobs, as much as you and BT want that to be your platform. You go ahead and make your stupid argument. You will be wrong. That's a shame. You stand tall on some sort of rhetoric and you REFUSE to hear me out.

The issue is the pressure to make our children land on ONE SIZE FITS ALL platforms. NOt possible. The issue is that teachers are made to conform to a one size fits all standard of teaching only what the government wants.....and nothing else. I have worked too long to see this system fail. 

So, I will not stop that fight> I WANT THE NCLB TWEAKED. PERIOD. I don't want to stop the competition. I dont' want to see a healhty system shoveled aside. I want it all. Currently, it isn't happening, according to THE ACT at hand.

If it changes, and I see that our kids are given back what they once OWNED and deserved as they "right to all" in terms of a full education in the PUBLIC SCHOOLS..the system that is a part of our infrastructure.....I'll be the first to compete. I'll be the first to say, bring it on.

It is weak...that's all I have been saying and I rest my final case on that.

Help the system work. DOn't bash the hell out of the players within.

The children are as varied and individual as your patients who come for care..seeking help in their time of need.

Ok, I'm spent.
But I will fight for what is right.