Author Topic: hmmm  (Read 14185 times)

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Stray Pooch

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Re: hmmm
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2011, 09:05:50 AM »
Actually, as I think about it, the state does have an interest in preventing bigamy, if said bigamy is not mutually consentual.  if daddy has two families and the one doesn't know about the other, the community property rights of the two clueless spouses and any children are adversely affected.  If Daddy and Mommy and other Mommy all live in the same house, then the state has no interest I can see.

I agree with BT that the same principle is in play with Walker's decision to drop the legal ball and Obama's decision to drop the legal ball.  It is unfortunate that Obama made the choice he did, given that I was favorably impressed with his original course of holding his nose and defending it.  Obama should have let the legislature do its job and the courts do theirs, by making the justice department do theirs.  Walker is in the same place.    The underlying issues are different but the separation of powers issue is exactly the same - and they (Obama and Walker) are equally wrong.

As to gay marriage not affecting the institution of marriage - that is your opinion.  Gay marriage advocates have long used the false premise that since an individual gay marriage does not affect an individual heterosexual marriage (or the analogous collective marriages) the institution is not affected.  But that is not true.  Marriage as a social institution is, by its nature, a moral issue.  The values of most societies have historically dictated that if a couple is to begin to engage in rearing children, commitments must be made to protect those children and to protect the spouses (historically women) from losing their economic rights.  It kept the sort of thing that is epidemic today - abandoned women, single parenthood and deadbeat dads - from being the norm. 

That social dynamic has, indeed, changed.  The family - which is based on the institution of marriage - has been denigrated and children and women are still bearing the brunt of that dissolution.  The reason for this decline is not only the selfishness of men, but the general effacement of the principle that marriage is a sacred institution - and the basis of society.  Gay marriage would further dilute the importance, sanctity and relevance of the institution - not of any particular marriage.  The burden of the effacement of the family is felt in the overabundance of social programs like welfare designed to substitute for proper self-sufficient family structures.  So yes, the majority is indeed effected by the erosion of the family.

The same arguments being used to defend gay marriage now were used to defend no-fault divorce and other easy-out methods in the sixties.  The jury is no longer out on those issues.  Lax views and laws on divorce have, as predicted, badly weakened the family and society.  We've already proven that anti-family morals hurt society.  This will be just as true as we weaken family structure further by redefining the entire concept.

The fact is, societies have the collective right to determine their moral value system.  If the majority of people in a society wish to allow gay marriage then it ought to be allowed.  But if, as has been clearly demonstrated time and again in this society, the majority wants to retain traditional marriage then it ought to be the law of the land - and the government of, by and for the people has no right to overrule the people.
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: hmmm
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2011, 11:27:09 AM »
Gay marriage would further dilute the importance, sanctity and relevance of the institution - not of any particular marriage.

I question this premise. Any attitude toward marriage is an INDIVIDUAL decision, NOT a collective one.

Gay marriage has no effect because 99.9999999999999999999% of all heteros would have no knowledge of which gays were married and which were not. Nor would most of them even care. In fact, there are ALREADY a number of married gays.

It has had no effect whatever.
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kimba1

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Re: hmmm
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2011, 01:32:19 PM »
upon further thought if gay marraige dilute marraige I can`t see that as a bad thing due to the high amount of divorces. divorce MUST be seen as a indicator  that marraige is flawed to begin with. I previously stated in other post I`ve seen toxic relationship and how it effects children.

this is not news its normal life. the bread and butter of most talk shows.

and talking about immorality of gays, I can`t feel much, since people  complain about the gays in san francisco,but not the crime and drugs.

seems to me 2 dads are more capable of protecting a family than  the normal set. remember the majority of gays in s.f. are ex-military.

the very reason gays are in san  francisco is because it`s used to be a naval port.

Stray Pooch

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Re: hmmm
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2011, 10:53:30 PM »
kimba you are arguing a different point.  I am not talking about a gay marriage affecting a heterosexual marriage.  I am talking about the institution itself.  Divorce ALSO effaces the institution - and again I am referring to the social significance of marriage itself.  Because divorce is far more easy to obtain than it once was, marriage is no longer taken seriously by a large portion of society.  If you aren't happy with a partner you just dump her and get another.  There is neither any incentive to work on marriages nor any stigma associated with walking away from one.   

Redefining the relationship that God ordained - that of heterosexual union for procreation and remaining faithful for life - makes marriage just a way of declaring your love.  It's like sending flowers.  Flowers are a lovely expression of love, but they are only temporary.  Marriage is more than just a way of telling someone that you REALLY REALLY LIKE them.  It is a committmemnt to begin a family, to remain faithful to one another and to make sure that your children have a stable, secure home.  As it stands now, when infatuation cools either partner just moves to the next thrill.  There is no need to let love develop, as it does over the course of a long marriage.  I just celebrated 34 years of marriage yesterday and I am married to a different woman, yet the very same one, I married in 1977.  I know that adultery happens, but it used to be discouraged - in fact scandalized - by society.  These days it's just another partner change.

Our society has denigrated marriage and tried to replace it with counterfeit institutions and uncomitted relationships.  The rights of children to a stable, secure home are unrecognized and unconsidered.  Further dililuting marriage by doing away with the basic purpose and order of marriage is inevitable, and it is one more nail in the coffin of our society.  Anyone who calls this particular spade a spade is ridiculed as a religious fanatic or a moral Pharisee.    And you tell me over and over and over again, my friend, you don't believe . . .
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Plane

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Re: hmmm
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2011, 11:13:27 PM »
In fact, there are ALREADY a number of married gays.

It has had no effect whatever.

Then what is it for?


If it has no effect whatsoever then why fight to have it?

In times past Marrage legitimised a dangeerous activity and provided a bond that was usefull to the bonded individuals and to the greater society. It insured children would have parents and that parents would have social approval.

What is it supposed to do now?

What gays want is to be legitamised , and the way to do it is a direct attack to take over the institution of marrage.

It won't work whether they succeed or not.

What happened to the word "gay"?

It was supposed to substitute for opprobrious words and be absent of criticism when said, but in the common usage it is becomeing a synonym for ....  what?

Makeing Marrage leagal is supposed to place the blessing of social approval on gay relationship, since society is not legality it wpon't work quite that way, rather than gaining the sought approval, it will instead weaken the value of the already weakened institution.

Plane

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Re: hmmm
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2011, 11:25:08 PM »
Actually, as I think about it, the state does have an interest in preventing bigamy, ....


  How did and how do states that allow multiple marrage cope with problems of inheritance and fair division?


   I wonder if divorce is really empowering for women , makeing divorce difficult was for the womans sake in the old days, now they need civilization instead of needing a man.

  Sometimes I do feel like a fish's bicycle.

kimba1

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Re: hmmm
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2011, 12:20:51 AM »
I am talking about the institution and divorce is easier but thats not the problem. marraige is too easy. remember britney married twice. the term "not to be entered lightly" is long gone. even the bloodtest gone  and thats a medical issue that doesn`t really deny people masrraige. personally marraige is hardly even voluntary . pressure from families to marry somebody you don`t like is very strong.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: hmmm
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2011, 07:49:46 AM »
Then what is it for?


If it has no effect whatsoever then why fight to have it?

===========================================
Why fight to defeat restrictions on people's rights?

You have this bass-ackwards. Gay marriage is a right gay people should have had since forever.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: hmmm
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2011, 06:07:15 PM »
Then what is it for?


If it has no effect whatsoever then why fight to have it?

===========================================
Why fight to defeat restrictions on people's rights?

You have this bass-ackwards. Gay marriage is a right gay people should have had since forever.

Why do you call it a right , if you can't even call it usefull?

Presumably there have always been some Homosexuals , why do they need this right now?

They are trying to gain social approval , and they are browbeating the society for the trappings of social approval.

At the same time that young men and women are hooking up caring less and less for the stamp of societys approval, homosexuals covet it more and more.

This is a two pronged attack on the credability of Marrage when homosexuals finally get it it will be nothing, and they will not understand their own role in its devaluation.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: hmmm
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2011, 06:10:32 PM »
Homosexuals are indeed useful, I never said they were not. Why not approve of them? What is gained by not doing this?

I do not believe gay marriages have ANY effect WHATEVER on any other marriages.What is wrong with just letting them do their thing. We do not have to watch.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: hmmm
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2011, 06:25:34 PM »
Homosexuals are indeed useful, I never said they were not. Why not approve of them? What is gained by not doing this?

I do not believe gay marriages have ANY effect WHATEVER on any other marriages.What is wrong with just letting them do their thing. We do not have to watch.


  So you agree that homosexual marrage is not in any way usefull?


   By the way I didn't mean to imply or refrence the usefullness of homosexuals themselves, but since you bring it up , what makes a person more usefull as a homosexual than the same person would vbe otherwise?

kimba1

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Re: hmmm
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2011, 06:41:43 PM »
in my towm thier very useful

tourism and very helpful to the community.

the castro is the cleanest and fairly crime free area of San Francisco. for some reason gangs don`t like to hang out there.









Plane

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Re: hmmm
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2011, 06:46:09 PM »
They are a tourist attraction and a street gang repellant?

Ok that is usefull.

kimba1

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Re: hmmm
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2011, 06:55:20 PM »
it`s a funny thing criminals tend to avoid that areas. not totally crimefree though

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: hmmm
« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2011, 12:44:03 AM »
Gay men are the advance guard of urban renewal here in Miami. They buy elegant old homes in disrepair, and of course, the gays that do this are those who have the youth, strength and skills to do the restoration. They tend to be pretty territorial if approached by drug gangs. Once the area is renewed, some of them move on, as property values have usually soared. The entire bayfront area from Biscayne and 20th to 85th street was restored and gentrified in this way.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."