Author Topic: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)  (Read 24086 times)

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sirs

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2008, 05:02:28 PM »
 :D
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2008, 05:08:20 PM »
this should have real potential for a mass movement.

Pun intended?

===============================
Now that you think about it, you could add this as a new sacrament: the Mass Movement as a postlude to  the ritual of Holy Gluttony.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Brassmask

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2008, 05:19:12 PM »
Quote
The bigger risk you face is eternal damnation for not believing in the 1st place.  But that's your burden to bear.  To answer your question, considering I've apparently spent a hell of a lot longer studying the bible and Christ's teachings than yourself, there's no risk what-so-ever.  Jesus wanted man, NOT GOVERNMENT to ease other men's sufferings.  The scriptures clearly articulate such

Well, I suppose that is a good deflective topic but I won't bite.  Rather, let us stick to your answer. By your statement/logic, it appears that you would like to believe that Jesus did not want man to use tools to ease other men's suffering.  Government is nothing more than a societal tool.  A means to an end, if you will.  If the society wants to ease other men's suffering, why not use a tool to expedite that societal desire even if the suffering is the predominance of that society's?

By your logic, Jesus would apparently want men to wade into the water and grab the fish with their bare hands rather than using a pole or a net from a boat.

Quote
LOL......Coming from a devoted atheist who resorts to calling anyone who has a belief system delusional, you're concluding my Christianity is a "non-Christian ideology"?  Why would you even care, I'm delusional, remember?  Gotta love it     :D

LOL...I wanted to use your delusion to help you understand that government can be used to help ease suffering.

Being an atheist does not exclude me from talking about your "belief system".  (I love that term because it is so apt a term for the house cards that is theism.)

sirs

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2008, 05:26:13 PM »
Quote
The bigger risk you face is eternal damnation for not believing in the 1st place.  But that's your burden to bear.  To answer your question, considering I've apparently spent a hell of a lot longer studying the bible and Christ's teachings than yourself, there's no risk what-so-ever.  Jesus wanted man, NOT GOVERNMENT to ease other men's sufferings.  The scriptures clearly articulate such

By your statement/logic, it appears that you would like to believe that Jesus did not want man to use tools to ease other men's suffering.  

NOOOO, tools are fine, as long as they don't take something away from another.  You can use all the tools one wants, so long as it's not taking "tools" away from someone else.  At least that's not what Christ taught.  But nice try


"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2008, 05:30:45 PM »
Yummy!
In a time when food was scarce, and for everyone who ate twice as much as he needed, another starved, I can see why gluttony would be a sin.

These days, the poor are overweight, and the rich are thin. If I eat a couple of scoops of ice cream a day, I suppose there will have to an extra cow up in Wisconsin, eating grass and farting and adding to the greenhouse gases. But the main problem with me overindulging in ice cream would be an earlier demise from a massive coronary infarction, most likely.

I find this interesting. We have preachers who tell you to sacrifice for Jesus and give to the poor, and we have other preachers telling you that Jesus wants us to be rich, and we should go out and get humping and make lotsa money.

Black people have pictures of Black Jesi, Germans have pictures of blond Jesi, but nowhere have I ever seen a picture of a fat Jesus. Only El Greco painted a skinny Jesus, and he painted everyone as emaciated.

Neither have I heard of any church that combined evangelism with weight loss. This seems to be a concept for the next L. Ron Hubbard, I think. Most Americans being a buit on the chubby side, and perhaps not as holy as they once were, this should have real potential for a mass movement.


XO, you underestimate the Protestant ability to found churches based on...well, nearly anything. (I'm joking with my Protestant brethren...but this is a real church, or was...I'm not sure if it is still active.)

 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Sunday, 06/20/04
Church founded by diet guru scrutinized after boy dies
 
By KARIN MILLER
Associated Press
FRANKLIN ? The Remnant Fellowship, a church that grew out of a Christian weight-loss program, preaches obedience and tough discipline for unruly children.


Those beliefs have put the religious movement under scrutiny in a case involving two members accused of beating their 8-year-old son to death last year in suburban Atlanta's Cobb County.

Last month, investigators raided the Franklin headquarters of the church and weight-loss program, seeking evidence of a connection to Josef Smith's death.

Authorities say the boy was chronically abused and died from a blow to the head. His parents, Joseph and Sonya Smith of Mableton, Ga., are charged with felony murder, child cruelty and deprivation of a minor.

Remnant Fellowship founder Gwen Shamblin, other church leaders and more than two dozen members would not return phone calls or e-mails from The Associated Press.

However, Shamblin has said church leaders believe in discipline but they don't sanction abuse. Remnant leaders believe the Smiths' contention that the boy's death was an accident and are helping pay for their lawyers.

Church leaders say on a Web site that the media ''have already tried and found this couple guilty. These same individuals are now attempting to associate the teachings of Remnant Fellowship with this unfortunate incident.''

But it's former Remnant members who are saying church leaders sanctioned severe beatings and locking children in a bare room with a Bible until they learned obedience to God and their parents. Audiotapes made by those former members recorded Shamblin praising such ''showdowns'' with children, including the Smiths' son Josef.

Discipline and obedience are underlying themes of the church's teachings and of the weight-loss program that Shamblin began in 1986.

The Weigh Down Workshop, held in Christian churches throughout the world, attracted thousands. The diet doesn't ban any foods but requires eating only when the stomach growls and only until the dieter is full.

''Once you are obedient to God's rules in the areas of eating (hunger and fullness), you not only lose the excess weight, but you will lose the desire to overeat. ? He cares very much about ? and is displeased with ? overindulgence,'' Shamblin says on the Weigh Down Web site.

The workshops made millions of dollars, but Shamblin wasn't satisfied.

As she traveled the country, she began to believe many churches were condoning sins such as gluttony. She found them to be ''counterfeit'' churches worshipping false gods, including sex, money, drugs and self.

''The evidence that multiple gods have stepped into our hearts (the temple of God) is the ever-increasing indulgences and sin in the church,'' Shamblin writes on the Remnant Web site.

''Divorce and rebellious children and obesity and the use of drugs and anti-authority and pride and arrogance against His exact wishes have increased over the years.''

In 1999, she founded Remnant Fellowship, which she calls the one true church, choosing the name from biblical passages about God calling together a remnant of true believers.

Remnant claims to have about 130 churches scattered throughout the country, but many consist of a few families meeting at one another's homes. Franklin members now meet at a Weigh Down warehouse, but a large church is under construction south of town.

Many have moved from other states to join Remnant here and are happy with their choice, as evidenced by a recent Saturday night at a restaurant where about 50 adults and children gathered to support the new piano player, a Remnant member.

Church members also told a couple of interested listeners about miracles they had experienced through the church: tremendous weight loss, reunited families and an intense love of God.

For some, that enthusiasm doesn't last. Rob and Brenda Herbst of Florida were among the first to join Remnant and became leaders of the fledgling movement.

''She offered me something I had wanted all my life ? a perfect church,'' said Rob Herbst, who had been a lay minister in a Southern Baptist congregation.

However, he and his wife said they weren't allowed to associate with their daughter and grandchildren, who weren't Remnant believers. And they weren't allowed to question church leaders, particularly Shamblin.

Members weren't allowed to read material unless Shamblin had written it or listen to Christian music unless it was by her son Michael, Herbst said.

''They were filling your mind with nothing but Gwen Shamblin and her twisted Scripture. Leaders would tell you, 'You are listening to a prophet from God,' '' Herbst said.

Last fall, they neared a breaking point when church leaders tried to prevent Herbst from starting a job selling real estate. The final straw, they said, was the Smith boy's death.

Herbst said he read about the investigation and noticed that Shamblin was lying to investigators about whether glue sticks (long thin rods used in glue guns) were used to beat children to avoid leaving a mark.

''She says that never came from her, but there is not one thing done in Remnant Fellowship that Gwen does not approve of,'' he said.

Former members Betsy and Steve Miozzi of Ohio say they were told to advocate such discipline for the child of a local member. Church leaders told them the boy didn't need medication for his attention deficit disorder.

''Just smack the child 10 times across the back of the thigh. If that doesn't work, do it again and again, and if it still doesn't work, put him in a room with nothing but a Bible and leave him there till he obeys or turns 18,'' Miozzi said he was told.

On visits to the Franklin church, the Miozzis often saw glue sticks protruding from diaper bags. They were used on children as young as 18 months who fidgeted during the long services, Miozzi said.

''They make you believe if you don't do it, you don't love God, you don't love your child and you can't be part of Remnant. If you're not a part of Remnant, you're going to hell,'' Miozzi said.

Six months after leaving Remnant, the Miozzis still struggle with that fear. They have recently begun talking with other former members dealing with the same issues.

Several are being counseled by Rafael Martinez of Spiritwatch Ministries in Cleveland, Tenn., who says Remnant Fellowship is clearly a cult. He says Shamblin tapped into the vulnerabilities of Weigh Down participants and took advantage of them.

''They are as abusive a religious group as any I've seen. And I've never seen a group get so abusive, so damaging in so short a time,'' Martinez said.

http://www.tennessean.com/local/archives/04/06/53148049.shtml
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_JS

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2008, 05:32:53 PM »
Quote
The bigger risk you face is eternal damnation for not believing in the 1st place.  But that's your burden to bear.  To answer your question, considering I've apparently spent a hell of a lot longer studying the bible and Christ's teachings than yourself, there's no risk what-so-ever.  Jesus wanted man, NOT GOVERNMENT to ease other men's sufferings.  The scriptures clearly articulate such

By your statement/logic, it appears that you would like to believe that Jesus did not want man to use tools to ease other men's suffering.  

NOOOO, tools are fine, as long as they don't take something away from another.  You can use all the tools one wants, so long as it's not taking "tools" away from someone else.  At least that's not what Christ taught.  But nice try

But make no mistake Brass, a "good Christian" can fully support taking money from others and applying it to simulated drowning and electroshocking of prisoners, invading foreign countries, and building walls to keep out the neighboring poor. I bet that example makes you want to attend church this Sunday, doesn't it?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

BT

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2008, 05:37:10 PM »
Quote
But make no mistake Brass, a "good Christian" can fully support taking money from others and applying it to simulated drowning and electroshocking of prisoners, invading foreign countries, and building walls to keep out the neighboring poor.


Obviously good christians suck.


_JS

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2008, 05:44:56 PM »
Quote
But make no mistake Brass, a "good Christian" can fully support taking money from others and applying it to simulated drowning and electroshocking of prisoners, invading foreign countries, and building walls to keep out the neighboring poor.


Obviously good christians suck.

As defined by Sirs, the example they set is not one that attracts many non-Christians I imagine. It certainly lacks any of God's love or forgiveness. I wonder why?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Brassmask

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2008, 05:59:28 PM »

Your second question is easily answered. The answer is unequivocally "YES." God sets the rules. It is everyone's personal choice whether to accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior and therefore go to Heaven when they die. See John 14:6. I believe that verse is very clear on this subject.

Um, you left out part of that equation.  Free will does mean that you can accept JC and then go to heaven or just not.

Christian teachings tell us that you can accept JC of your own free will and go to heaven OR go straight to hell for eternal damnation after you die.

That is not free will.  Free will is going to McDonalds or Wendys.  Fascism is going to Wendy's rather than McDonalds and suffering eternal damnation for doing so.

sirs

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2008, 06:05:33 PM »
Actually, as defined by sirs, the example set involves the volitional assistance in helping one's fellow man, vs the mandatory taking from one to give to another.  So, I'd say my example is one that's more likely to attract non-Christians.  Excluding those non-Christians of course, who have no interest in helping, and simply want to take from others, and proclaim, "See what I did?" to make themselves feel better

"Tools" are great in the goal of "helping our fellow man", as long as it's not the literal taking away of someone else's "tools" to do so
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2008, 06:16:35 PM »
Actually, as defined by sirs, the example set involves the volitional assistance in helping one's fellow man, vs the mandatory taking from one to give to another.  So, I'd say my example is one that's more likely to attract non-Christians.  Excluding those non-Christians of course, who have no interest in helping, and simply want to take from others, and proclaim, "See what I did?" to make themselves feel better

"Tools" are great in the goal of "helping our fellow man", as long as it's not the literal taking away of someone else's "tools" to do so

And how is your war being financed? Who pays the salaries of the interrogators who simulate drowning on the prisoners? Who pays to construct a wall on the border with Mexico?

The taxpayer. The same that could be paying to help his fellow man.

I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2008, 06:20:40 PM »
Boy oh boy, does Js want to keep this focused on the war vs taxes in general.  Well, last time I checked, I do recall battles that Israel had to deal with, including moving into different lands.  Not sure how they financed their God-supported wars then.  So, if you can come up with that answer, that should take care of your current query. 

And last time I checked, this wasn't a theocracy, so not sure how this line inquiry has anything to do with Christ's teachings.  Unless of course you're now advocating a greater Christian intervention in policy making, both foreign & domestic

Oh yea, Christians, especially any who dare support the defending of our country, aren't perfect, contrary to popular leftist opinion 
« Last Edit: January 10, 2008, 06:23:52 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2008, 06:28:33 PM »
Boy oh boy, does Js want to keep this focused on the war vs taxes in general.  Well, last time I checked, I do recall battles that Israel had to deal with, including moving into different lands.  Not sure how they financed their God-supported wars then.  So, if you can come up with that answer, that should take care of your current query.

Oh yea, Christians, especially any who dare support the defending of our country, aren't perfect, contrary to popular leftist opinion 

What a weak response.

We didn't defend this country, we invaded another country. We pay for it with taxation. The same taxation you are whining about to me. Now, you've supported this war as well as waterboarding (siumulated drowning) and other "coercive interrogation techniques" (i.e. sensory deprivation, sleep deprivation, and electroshock). You support a wall on the Mexican border to keep out the unwanted poor from that nation.

Now, those are all paid for through taxation (yes, in some cases borrowed taxation on future generations).

So, you've attacked and attacked anyone supporting Government programs to help those in need. Clearly, in your mind, they are "contorting the Bible to fit their own socialist ideology."

I want you to show me how Christ supports your use of taxation. You've already defined it, so why should Christians support invading Iraq, simulated drowning and other coercive interrogation techniques, and a wall to keep out Mexicans? I don't want some weak blithering answer, I want a Biblical answer for Christians to cling to. In fact, I want an answer out of Christ's teachings.

You demanded no less of me (which I provided) now let's see your pudding on the table.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2008, 06:33:57 PM »
Boy oh boy, does Js want to keep this focused on the war vs taxes in general.  Well, last time I checked, I do recall battles that Israel had to deal with, including moving into different lands.  Not sure how they financed their God-supported wars then.  So, if you can come up with that answer, that should take care of your current query.

And last time I checked, this wasn't a theocracy, so not sure how this line inquiry has anything to do with Christ's teachings.  Unless of course you're now advocating a greater Christian intervention in policy making, both foreign & domestic

Oh yea, Christians, especially any who dare support the defending of our country, aren't perfect, contrary to popular leftist opinion
 

What a weak response.  We didn't defend this country, we invaded another country.

Well of course its weak....its not what you want to hear.  and your opinion of invasion is another one's opinion of preemptively dealing with a threat to this country, most all believed to have been valid --> WMD getting in the hands of terrorists, who had just taken down the WTC and killed 3000+ in a 2hour span

Sorry if it's not what you want to hear, but my conscience is perfectly clear regarding Christ's teachings of giving of oneself vs taking from another, in "helping our fellow man"


"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2008, 06:38:43 PM »
Well of course its weak....its not what you want to hear.  and your opinion of invasion is another one's opinion of preemptively dealing with a threat to this country, most all believed to have been valid --> WMD getting in the hands of terrorists, who had just taken down the WTC and killed 3000+ in a 2hour span

Sorry if it's not what you want to hear, but my conscience is perfectly clear regarding Christ's teachings of giving of oneself vs taking from another, in "helping our fellow man"

LOL

I can provide many quotes from the Bible about helping your fellow man, taking care of the poor.

Find me one quote where Christ condones killing another human being in the name of your country. Find me one quote where Christ condones, or encourages simulating drowning (or anything close to it) of a prisoner.

Sirs, I know your conscience is clear. That's what is so damn scary about people like you.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.