DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: kimba1 on February 15, 2008, 09:49:24 PM
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what is good for our economy
more jobs?
what kind of jobs?
would increasing our peoples education help?
what changes in our labour would help?
does big business help or hurt our country?
everybody is welcome to add more questions
lets see what turns up
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I read that the GI Bill increased wealth by many many times over what it cost.
Also it increased the size of colleges and universities. I think we need a GI Bill for everyone.
...Remedial tutoring services should be in great demand, for one thing.
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You have a GI Bill for everyone. It is called public education. And though it only goes through grade 12 many states will continue to fund higher education at state colleges if you maintain a 3.0 average. If your state doesn't do that , perhaps you should lobby for them to do so. GA does, funded by a lottery.
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I think eliminating waste is good for your economy. Less private cars on the road, more bikes and public transportation. Telecommuting, working from home to avoid needless back and forth road trips to and from work.
It always amazed me that healthy people drive back and forth to work and then spend an hour working out at the gym. Why not bike to and from work and save the hour at the gym?
Use of alternative energy such as solar and wind power to lessen demands for imports and ease the load on the grid.
INVEST IN PEOPLE, not war. What good is a free public education system if millions of kids are too damaged by poor or inadequate parenting to be able to take advantage of it? Massive, free, early childhood development organizations should be ensuring that every child gets healthy, productive, motivating personal interaction, stimulation and role modeling so that he or she will be good student material on reaching school age. More and better teachers' colleges, more money for research and development in pedagogy.
Stop the cycle of babies making babies. You need universal sex education and the distribution of free condoms and birth control devices in all junior high schools and high schools. Unwanted babies, through neglect and poor parenting, often turn into uneducated, wasteful drains on the economy.
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INVEST IN PEOPLE, not war. What good is a free public education system if millions of kids are too damaged by poor or inadequate parenting to be able to take advantage of it? Massive, free, early childhood development organizations should be ensuring that every child gets healthy, productive, motivating personal interaction, stimulation and role modeling so that he or she will be good student material on reaching school age. More and better teachers' colleges, more money for research and development in pedagogy.
Stop the cycle of babies making babies. You need universal sex education and the distribution of free condoms and birth control devices in all junior high schools and high schools. Unwanted babies, through neglect and poor parenting, often turn into uneducated, wasteful drains on the economy.
Define adequate parenting.
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<<Define adequate parenting.>>
I wouldn't dare. Experts have written thousands of books on this.
How about Inadequate Parenting? Nowhere near enough hugs and body care. Not nearly enough speaking or singing to the baby. Very little attention to basic physical needs. Exposure to toxic environments. Not setting physical or intellectual challenges. Failure to socialize. Inappropriate and excessive criticism or praise, little if any encouragement or appropriate encouragement . . .
What's the point? Most of us know the vague parameters of adequate and inadequate parenting, or at least we can recognize inadequate when we see it.
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The point is simple.
Adequate parenting at the minimum requires the parents to accept responsibility and therefore accountability for nurturing their offspring. And yet your solution to babies having babies is to absolve said parents of any of those responsibilities.
For example, adequate parenting would entail teaching your children about procreation, sexual gratification and the responsibilities and consequences that go with that activity.
You have the state usurping that role.
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"Why not bike to and from work and save the hour at the gym?"
Come on Michael, typical liberal idea, that sounds good but makes no sense once you really look at it
Like biking to work is going to work in an aging population in diverse climates of hot/cold/ice/rain/snow
Try that in Phoenix, Houston, New Orleans, Kansas City, ect and everybody would stink like hell at work
or you could have everybody shower once they arrive at work
wasting more time, water and energy
it would take millions double/thriple the time to get to work (bikes dont go 55mph under normal circumstances)
tens of millions of old / middle age people wont be able to do it
millions would have to move because they live 30 plus miles from work (60 mile RT)
i bet the United Auto Workers would support this!
what about daylight savings time....
millions of people leaving work in the dark in the winter on bikes? yeah sure
in 30 degree weather, ice/snow for a 20 mile bike ride home?
bikes dont protect you from the weather like cars
what about soccer Moms that drop off young children at school/day care
like biking would be practical for that?
what about stopping on the way home at the grocery store?
bags of groceries on a bike? in the rain?
(http://nc.startribune.com/blogs/roadguy/wp-content/uploads/BikeSnow.JPG)
yeah sure
(http://www.maziarz.com/maziarz/mtnbike/mbk23005058.jpg)
yeah sure
(http://www.streetsblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/11_20-26/elderly_cyclist_drachten.jpg)
yeah sure a 60 mile RT
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For example, adequate parenting would entail teaching your children about procreation, sexual gratification and the responsibilities and consequences that go with that activity.
You have the state usurping that role.
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I don't think the state 'usurps' this role. To my knowledge, no government in the US has ever told parents they cannot teach their children about the proverbial birds and bees.
In some states, they have sex ed classes, but these are simply to insure that every child, even those with parents who are remiss in their duties, have a basic knowledge of this information. To avoid offending anyone, the state sex ed classes tend to be incomplete, but I don;t thnk it is at all fair to say that the state "usurps" this role in any way. "supplements" would be the more correct term.
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<<Adequate parenting at the minimum requires the parents to accept responsibility and therefore accountability for nurturing their offspring. And yet your solution to babies having babies is to absolve said parents of any of those responsibilities.>>
That's a pretty negative assessment of an idea that has absolutely no downside for anyone. The Early Child Development teams work WITH new parents or parents-to-be and show them ways or techniques they were previously unaware of. They provide newborns and toddlers with otherwise unavailable environmental stimuli to learning. They don't ABSOLVE anyone of parental responsibility any more than cooking classes absolve the family cook of the chore of cooking the family dinner.
<<For example, adequate parenting would entail teaching your children about procreation, sexual gratification and the responsibilities and consequences that go with that activity.
<<You have the state usurping that role.>>
No more than elementary school math classes usurp the parents' role of math teacher. Parents weren't performing that role adequately or uniformly. Nor were they in teaching sex ed. Time for the educational system to step in. Otherwise, we'll have more of what we have now. I think kimba's question was how to improve on what we have now, not how to perpetuate it.
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<<Come on Michael, typical liberal idea, that sounds good but makes no sense once you really look at it
Like biking to work is going to work in an aging population in diverse climates of hot/cold/ice/rain/snow
Try that in Phoenix, Houston, New Orleans, Kansas City, ect and everybody would stink like hell at work
or you could have everybody shower once they arrive at work>>
Well, subject to a little common sense. I biked to work every day before my heart attack, showered and shaved at the office when I got there. No water wasted. And I stopped for the winter, took the bus and subway. Didn't even ride in the summer rain like some hard-core riders will.
Obviously it's not possible for every worker every working day. But it would save a helluva lot of time and fuel if everyone did it who could do it.
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hey michael i have a question
how does canadian healthcare handle smoking?
like if if citizen A does not smoke he pays his taxes for healthcare
but if citizen B decides to smoke 4 packs a day, does the heavy smoker pay the same for healthcare?
i think here in the US some would pay more for their policy and some dont
i was just curious how gvt run healthcare handles reckless behavior impact on healthcare costs?
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/bbc_logo.gif)
Licence to smoke' proposed
Smokers would have to get a licence to light up under the plan
Smokers could be forced to pay for a permit to buy tobacco if a government health advisory body gets its way.
No one would be able to buy cigarettes without the permit, under the idea proposed by Health England.
Its chairman, Professor Julian Le Grand, told BBC Radio 5 Live the scheme would make a big difference to the number of people giving up smoking.
But smokers' rights group Forest described the idea as "outrageous", given how much tax smokers already pay.
Professor Le Grand, a former adviser to ex-PM Tony Blair, said cash raised by the proposed scheme would go to the NHS.
He said it was the inconvenience of getting a permit - as much as the cost - that would deter people from persisting with the smoking habit.
"You've got to get a form, a complex form - the government's good at complex forms; you have got to get a photograph.
"It's a little bit of a problem to actually do it, so you have got to make a conscious decision every year to opt in to being a smoker."
'Extra bureaucracy'
He added: "70% of smokers actually want to stop smoking.
"So if you just make it that little bit more difficult for them to actually re-start or even to start in the first place, yes I think it will make a big difference."
But Forest said it would be "an extra form of taxation, while tobacco taxation is already at record levels".
Forest spokesman Simon Clark said that when the cost of administration, extra bureaucracy and enforcement are taken into account, "the mind boggles".
He added that the people most affected by the proposals would be "the elderly and people on low incomes".
Mr Clark added: "The senior government advisor putting this idea forward is not only adding to the red tape and bureaucracy we already have in this country.
"He is openly bragging that he wants to make the form as complex as possible to fill in."
A department of health spokeswoman did not rule out such a scheme as part of the next wave of tobacco regulation.
She said: "We will be consulting later this year on the next steps on tobacco control.
"Ministers are seeking input from a whole range of stakeholders."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7247470.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7247470.stm)
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<<hey michael i have a question
how does canadian healthcare handle smoking?>>
Same way they handle any other self-inflicted disease or injury. Everyone's covered.
We have a good friend who's one of the top lung specialists in the country. Once he saved this guy's life who smoked three packs a day and ordered him to quit smoking. The operation and post-op care cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. Six months later the guy was back with the same thing and he hadn't even cut back on the three packs. Our friend was furious and refused to operate - - the guy's family issued a claim and the doctor had to back off and take the guy in again.
I once argued the issue with a labour union official - - the union guy argued that the smoking itself was a sickness, an addiction, the lung cancer and emphysema were just complications of the original illness.
Personally, I'd tax the shit out of the tobacco companies, tax their profits and then tax their after-tax earnings and investments with special health-care taxes. They're already heavily taxed, but nowhere near heavily enough. If they insist on selling poison, they gotta pay for the cure.
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like if if citizen A does not smoke he pays his taxes for healthcare
but if citizen B decides to smoke 4 packs a day, does the heavy smoker pay the same for healthcare?
i think here in the US some would pay more for their policy and some dont
In the US, it depends on the type of policy. If it's a "group" policy - like most employers have - they cannot charge one member of the group more than another member of the group. But, if one group has higher payouts year after year, they will increase the total cost of the insurance to the group, so everyone in the group would pay more.
If you have an individual policy, your health habits will directly impact your premiums - ie, you are a group of one.
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<<In the US, it depends on the type of policy. If it's a "group" policy - like most employers have - they cannot charge one member of the group more than another member of the group. But, if one group has higher payouts year after year, they will increase the total cost of the insurance to the group, so everyone in the group would pay more.>>
Same in Canada - - only the group is the entire Provincial population.
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It wouldn't fly here. I already pay for a "license" to smoke. It's a $.39 a pack Federal tax and a $2.025 state tax. That's per pack. Let's say I smoke 2 packs a day. That's $2.415 X 2, or $4.43 per day. Multiply that times 365 for a year, and you have $1,616.95 per year. I think that that covers my "license".
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Same in Canada - - only the group is the entire Provincial population.
So, in Canada, everyone pays a fixed monthly premium?
What is that monthly premium in Ontario? Canadian dollars is fine...
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I think we used to pay a premium a long time ago, at the beginning. Now it just comes out of our taxes. I have no idea - - we pay income tax once to the Federal Government, but included in that is some Ontario Provincial tax, from which the Province presumably operates the OHIP (the health plan) with direct Federal grant assistance based on individual Federal-Provincial agreements negotiated with each Province separately.
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I think we used to pay a premium a long time ago, at the beginning. Now it just comes out of our taxes.
So, then it's NOT like the group policies in the US, where everyone in the group pays the same amount.
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Personally, I'd tax the shit out of the tobacco companies, tax their profits and then tax their after-tax earnings and investments with special health-care taxes. They're already heavily taxed, but nowhere near heavily enough. If they insist on selling poison, they gotta pay for the cure.
So, with the fat kid epidemic we have now, we should also tax the the shit out of Hostess, Little Debbie, Frito-Lay, Dreyers, McDonald's, Burger King, Wendy's, Sonic, Jack in the Box, Hardee's, and Dairy Queen? Make them pay for the cure? In my line of work I have a 5X risk of cancer to start with, should we be taxing all pipe welders/fitters to cover that cost too? Here's the funny thing about the cigarette tax in my state. Look at how it breaks down:
1. Health Care $1.01
2. General Fund 23.0 cents
3. Programs to Stop Youth Violence 10.5 cents
4. Water quality 8.0 cents
5. Education Programs 60.0 cents
Other than the health care, which goes to the state plan that I make too much to qualify for, what the hell do the rest of these have to do with cigarettes? If you're going to tax me for it, fine, but put the money back where it benefits me, the payee, not to water quality or youth violence BS. I'm not even going to talk about the billions of dollars in tobacco settlements that the state got, and where THAT money went. The whole thing is assinine. Taxing the product doesn't benefit the consumer, at least not in my state. It might benefit everyone else, but not the consumer.
Washington State cigarette tax breakdown: http://www.liq.wa.gov/tobacco/tobacco.asp (http://www.liq.wa.gov/tobacco/tobacco.asp)
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Logically, tobacco and liquor taxes should be spent on medically treating the damages to the hearts, lungs, livers and other parts of smokers and drinkers of these products. There should also be a portion spent on anti-smoking and anti-drinking announcements. This is what they used to do in Sweden, and may still do.
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Well XO, that'd be, well, logical. God forbid the government should do something logical.
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yeah i think someone that smokes 4 packs a day should pay more
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<<So, then it's NOT like the group policies in the US, where everyone in the group pays the same amount.>>
Well, I guess the taxpayers in one province pay a different per capita amount than those in the other provinces. But for each Provincial health plan, all the people in the province are covered out of the general tax revenues - - there is no individual premium.
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yeah i think someone that smokes 4 packs a day should pay more
why?
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But for each Provincial health plan, all the people in the province are covered out of the general tax revenues - - there is no individual premium.
So, they pay a varying amount depending on their income, for the same access to services.
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yeah i think someone that smokes 4 packs a day should pay more
why?
Because I believe smoking is a very easy to define non-debateable volunteer destructive habit and
smokers should not have their health care premiums subsidized by people that choose not to smoke.
btw: I am speaking of personal insurance policies. I favor personal policies over gvt or employment health care policies.
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"So, with the fat kid epidemic we have now, we should also tax the the shit out of Hostess,
Little Debbie, Frito-Lay, Dreyers, McDonald's, Burger King, Wendy's, Sonic, Jack in the Box, Hardee's,
and Dairy Queen?"
You can get salads or grilled chicken at all of the above restaurants
So they don't sell exclusively unhealthy products
Cigarette companies on the other hand only sell very destructive products that serve no other purpose
A Little Debbie may be not as healthy as something else but it does provide some nourishment
Cigarettes provide nothing but destruction and nicotine high
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Because I believe smoking is a very easy to define non-debateable volunteer destructive habit and
Soooo, if I smoke but am otherwise healthy and in shape with no major health problems, I should pay more than the diabetic who's 70 lbs overweight and won't control his disease? I should pay more than the guy who eats at McDonald's 5 times a week? I should pay more than someone so fat that when they die they have to remove part of their house to get them out? What a load of crap.
smokers should not have their health care premiums subsidized by people that choose not to smoke.
Why not? I'm paying for subsidization through my cigarette taxes for other people. I'm subsidizing the overweight diabetic mentioned above. I'm paying for the alcoholic and the drug abuser. So why shouldn't I get mine?
I don't know anyone who smokes 4 packs a day anymore. 2 and half is my limit, the most I've ever seen someone else do on a regular basis was my grandfather, who smoked three packs and lived to be 89, smoking the whole time.
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Cigarettes provide nothing but destruction and nicotine high
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I smoked for 20 years, and I never experienced anything much like a 'high': just a slight feeling of dizzyness that lasted for about 30 seconds after the first smoke of the day.
There was a lot of coughing, and the expense. There is no logical reason to smoke, it';s just an addiction with no redeeming qualities.
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"I should pay more than the guy who eats at McDonald's 5 times a week"
absolutely yes because McDonalds offer salads, chicken breasts, juices, milk, and other relatively healthy food
your cigarettes are 100% destructive
as stated earlier ciagrettes are in their own category
because it is so defineable
and so 100% destructive with no other value
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"INVEST IN PEOPLE, not war. What good is a free public education system if millions of kids are too damaged by poor or inadequate parenting to be able to take advantage of it? Massive, free, early childhood development organizations should be ensuring that every child gets healthy, productive, motivating personal interaction, stimulation and role modeling so that he or she will be good student material on reaching school age. More and better teachers' colleges, more money for research and development in pedagogy."
I agree.
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You can get salads or grilled chicken at all of the above restaurants
The Dairy Queen near my house doesn't sell salads. Perhaps we should institute a tax on high fat/low nutrition foods of $2.43 per hamburger/french fry/pack of little debbies. Think that would work?
So they don't sell exclusively unhealthy products
A bag of Ruffles and a can of clam dip isn't exactly a healthy product either.
Cigarette companies on the other hand only sell very destructive products that serve no other purpose
And yet they're legal. Tell me why that is again?
A Little Debbie may be not as healthy as something else but it does provide some nourishment
Nicotine shows promise as a treatment for Alzheimer's, schizophrenia, depression, and certain vascular disorders. So by your argument, cigarettes should be okay because they provide some benefits.
Cigarettes provide nothing but destruction and nicotine high
Tell you what, you don't like it, go ahead and get it banned. Really, I totally support this. Ban it altogether. I'll use my state as an example. Let's say the average person smokes a pack and a half a day (about right from my personal observations). That's $3.07 in tax generated per smoker, per day. Let's multiply that times 365 to get our yearly tax revenue from that smoker. That totals $1108.69, per year, per smoker. Now in my state there are 6,395,798 people, per the estimated 2006 census. Of those, 23.9% are under the age of 18. That makes the total of adults in WA 4931160.258. Of this number, 19.5% smoke. So the total number of smoking adults in WA is 961576.250310. Per year, these people generate $1,066,089,972.96 in tax revenue. That's not taking into account the number of minors who smoke. So go ahead and ban it, and we can see where the state is going to make that billion dollar shortfall from, Lord knows that they're not going to cut anything. So unless you're willing to assume that financial burden, cram it. I already pay my fucking way, and I don't need you or any other goody two shoe trying to tell me that I'm a financial burden.
That billion dollars, btw, is why you'll never see smoking banned outright.
Nicotine benefits: http://health.howstuffworks.com/nicotine-health-benefits.htm
Washington population stats: http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/53000.html (http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/53000.html)
Washington smoker percentage: http://www.spokesmanreview.com/breaking/story.asp?ID=5128 (http://www.spokesmanreview.com/breaking/story.asp?ID=5128)
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whoaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
talk about putting words in my mouth
and assumptions
i am not at all for banning cigarettes
i think people have the right to many self destructive behaviors
i just don't believe they have the right to ask me to subsidize it
and cigarettes are so clearly defineable
with food they clearly have some redeeming value
sure some food is better than other food
it is established
with cigarettes it is all destructive
sure there could be some rare medicinal value discovered
thats what Rx's are for
we could make the rare exception for someone with a cigarette Rx
like that would be really widepread ::)
but that is not an accepted established fact
again cigarettes are not really debate-able
it is widely accpted as being all bad
but you certainly have the right to smoke
just don't ask me to pay for your volunteer destructive habit
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absolutely yes because McDonalds offer salads, chicken breasts, juices, milk, and other relatively healthy food
I kind of doubt that salads are a majority of McDonald's products sold. I think the vast majority is rather unhealthy food, soda, french fries (but no trans fats!), greasy hamburgers. We're talking about McDonald's, not a fucking salad bar.
your cigarettes are 100% destructive
So? Is the percentage of destruction significantly less for an overweight diabetic eating ice cream? For a type A personality type at age 48 working himself into a fit? Is your whole argument based on the percentage of destruction?
as stated earlier ciagrettes are in their own category
because it is so defineable
So you are on the record as advocating control of me using legal, albeit unhealthy, substances in my body? Because the cigarette tax is a control in every way. Smoking bans are a method of control. So are extreme taxes.
and so 100% destructive with no other value
There's your percentage of destruction argument again. Smokers have a lower incidence of Alzheimer's disease, so I guess it'd be 98% destructive, with a value of Alzheimer's prevention. Personally, I'd rather go out with lung cancer than Alzheimer's, and I've lost relatives to both.
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all your examples are mostly hard to track and still debateable
like what a guy eats in McDonalds....ice cream...ect
cigarettes are much easy and the debate much much clearer and micro not macro
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I apologize, I misread the your post and your intent.
just don't ask me to pay for your volunteer destructive habit
But I have to pay for your (theoretical, not personal) volunteer destructive habit of not exercising, eating at McDonald's 5 times a week, eating two cartons of ice cream per week, from which you get lovely all expense paid vacation to Type II Diabetesland. Then I get to pay for your diabetic treatment and supplies because you refuse to control your disease.
All because ice cream and McDonald's have some redeeming nutrional value?
I'm not buying it.
PS, sorry if I'm coming across too personal, my coffeemaker broke this morning.
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all your examples are mostly hard to track and still debateable
It doesn't seem that way to me. Would you say that an overweight person has an unhealthy lifestyle? With the obesity percentage quickly rising in this country, wouldn't you agree that that is indicative of poor dietary habits or exercise habits? With Type II diabetes rising quickly in this country also, doesn't that suggest to you that people aren't taking care of themselves as well as they should?
like what a guy eats in McDonalds
Fast food is bad for you. Period. Even the salads aren't particularly healthy. I think it's a pretty safe assumption that McDonald's sells more hamburgers than salads. More soda. More French fries. Probably more egg McMuffins too. I don't see how that safe assumption is debatable.
ice cream
I think that most doctors and nutritionists would agree that ice cream is very bad. High fat, high sugar, with minimal nutritional value. It is to food what soda is to drink.
cigarettes are much easy and the debate much much clearer and micro not macro
Yes, we all know that cigarettes are bad and that you will probably die from them if you smoke all of your life. I understand that. What I don't understand is your argument that because I smoke, and ingest harmful toxins into my body, I should pay more. More than someone else who doesn't smoke and ingests harmful toxins into his body. There are more fat people than smokers in this country (though a lot of them are one and the same). I'd be interested to know the costs of treating obesity related illnesses vs. smoking related ones. Some of the diseases are common to both (heart disease for one), but a lot of them are restricted to one or the other (Diabetes with no hereditary influences, lung cancer without hereditary influence, etc). Other than smoking I take care of myself. I hike, I go to the gym, I work out, I eat healthy (at least 90% of the time anyway), I rarely drink. Why should I subsidize someone who doesn't do those things?
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You can argue that ice cream and fast food are bad for some people some of the time. An occasional scoop of ice cream or an occasional Big Mac is not harmful.
Cigarettes are harmful all the time.
Still, there are smokers and drinkers who have reached 100, so it depends on the individual even then.
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You can argue that ice cream and fast food are bad for some people some of the time. An occasional scoop of ice cream or an occasional Big Mac is not harmful.
Cigarettes are harmful all the time.
I don't think that the issue here is whether or not something is harmful, I think that the issue is the potential harm, and the cost of treating that harm, as that is what insurance premiums are based upon. Overindulgence in anything is bad for you, I think that we can all agree on that. With the rate of smokers falling but the rate of the obese rising, who is subsidizing who?
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fatman,
If you have a carafe (sp?), a largish strainer and some paper towels, you can boil water, put a paper towel in a strainer on top of the carafe, put coffee in the strainer and pour the boiling water on it. I've done this several times when the coffeemaker quit. It takes longer, it's messy, but you get COFFEE. ;)
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Thanks for the input lanya, I actually dug through my camping gear (I need to go through it again too, by the looks of it, hiking season is fast approaching!) and found my old enamel camp percolator. I normally prefer percolated coffee to drip anyway, but drip is more convenient. :)
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If you have a carafe (sp?), a largish strainer and some paper towels, you can boil water, put a paper towel in a strainer on top of the carafe, put coffee in the strainer and pour the boiling water on it. I've done this several times when the coffeemaker quit. It takes longer, it's messy, but you get COFFEE. ;)
You can at least give me the credit for that one. ;-)
Also, I recommend using a French press (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_press). No filters and nothing really to break.
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NOne of this has much to do with the kind of changes the country needs. Not even the kind of coffeemaker you use.
I agree that a French Press is hard to beat.
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That's ok. I was chastised recently for assuming that a thread topic is the topic that we should discuss.
Apparently, thread topics are just a suggestion.
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That's ok. I was chastised recently for assuming that a thread topic is the topic that we should discuss.
Apparently, thread topics are just a suggestion.
Which thread was that and who chastised you Ami? Thread drift is pretty common in here, but I can't say that I mind it a whole lot, it's interesting to me to see where it can go.
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Which thread was that and who chastised you Ami? Thread drift is pretty common in here, but I can't say that I mind it a whole lot, it's interesting to me to see where it can go.
Can't find it on the search, but when I said something like "we were discussing politics here" (because the thread included a reference to politics) I was criticized by several people for making the assumption that all of the responses should be seen in reference to politics.
I may look for it more later...
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If there were no people buying cigarettes there would be no demand for the government to controll or diminish them , if people going into McDonald's always asked for the salad McD would offer a larger selection of salad.
For the government to fight and cross and controll the public there needs to be a compelling reason , the government should be reluctant to interfere in peoples lives and people should be eager to take good care of themselves so that the responsibility doesn't wind up in the governments hands.
With responsibility comes authority andI dont want the government to gain authority over me that it doesn't really need , there is plenty of that now and who really benefits from it?
Imagine the government requireing every child to learn a second language , If they started in preschool it wouldn't be so hard , our nternational relations and trade would benefit a lot.
Or should the Government suggest such instruction and make it availible without requireing it?
Or should those who like the idea push it priviately , telling everyone that it is just so cool to speak in Spanish or French ?
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Imagine the government requireing every child to learn a second language , If they started in preschool it wouldn't be so hard , our nternational relations and trade would benefit a lot.
Or should the Government suggest such instruction and make it availible without requireing it?
Or should those who like the idea push it priviately , telling everyone that it is just so cool to speak in Spanish or French ?
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Learning English is mandatory in the Netherlands, Scandinavia and most of Germany (the Eastern part is catching up-they used to require Russian)
The US government does not have the power to require this. In addition, we do not have even a tenth of the qualified teachers. Most often, some Sra. Garcia pops in twice a week. Then in the Sophomore year, Mr or Mrs Sanchez spends about 45 minutes five times a week asking ?C?mo se llama Ud.? ?De d?nde es Ud.? ?A qu? hora se cepill? los dientes esta ma?ana? Judging from the students that have taken two or three years of this in MIami-Dade County Public Schools who appear in my ELEMENTARY SPANISH I classes, little is learned, less is remembered. French, being harder in both pronunciation and spelling, is even less effective.
The important features of FL instruction in Europe takes place after the third or fourth grade. Academic subjectsd other than English are taught in English. Pretty much every Jr Hi and Sr Hi teacher is fluent in English in these countries. Here, 90% of our FL teachers are immigrants, most of whom do not have enough knowledge of the mechanics of the English language to teach their FL effectively. Most English majors have never actually been exposed to the grammar of English, other than remedial grammar, which is hardly the same thing.
The government decreeing that FL should be taught would not work, because the law cannot provide the teachers. Getting the teachers would have to start with a total restructuring of English and FL teachers in the US, starting at the college level. It would be quite expensive, because there is little to start with, and teaching is so poorly paid that there are not enough bright people who major in it.
There is a will to learn English in the Netherlands, in Scandinavia, in Belgium and even France. This will does not exist in the US, not among the people, their children, their superintendents of schools, their school boards.
I saw the last of the Lord of the Rings films in Paris in 2003. There were two giant theatres in the multiplex and several smaller ones. One of these showed the film dubbed in French, another in English with subtitles in French. We saw it in the latter. The huge theatre was crammed to capacity, maybe 2,000 people. There would be no such occurrence in any theatre outside NYC in the US for any FL film. Americans do not know enough French (or any other language) to want to see it in the original.
The official motto of the US is "E Pluribus Unum", but the real motto is "I took Spanish in High School but I don't remember anything."
Well, maybe "Yo quiero Taco Bell.
They still haven't related to "Me encanta Mc Donald's" (=I'm lovin' it.)
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The US government does not have the power to require this. In addition, we do not have even a tenth of the qualified teachers. Most often, some Sra. Garcia pops in twice a week. Then in the Sophomore year, Mr or Mrs Sanchez spends about 45 minutes five times a week asking ?C?mo se llama Ud.? ?De d?nde es Ud.? ?A qu? hora se cepill? los dientes esta ma?ana? Judging from the students that have taken two or three years of this in MIami-Dade County Public Schools who appear in my ELEMENTARY SPANISH I classes, little is learned, less is remembered. French, being harder in both pronunciation and spelling, is even less effective.
That's exactly what happens in New Mexican public schools, XO. right on!
We did away with Spanish classes this year for the first time, because of our need to teach reading and math.
The only areas left beyond reading and math during our day is grammar, writing, and PE, library..but I have preached this issue enough on here. ha! We've thrown the baby out with the bathwater. We're all such good little teachers..we follow Sr. Bush. He knows everything. He's such a great leader. ::) We promise not to leave ONE child behind, sir!
OTOH; I happen to think that we have been wasting our time teaching 45 minutes of Spanish four days a week, when the children still do not know the difference between Verde and Azul ---by the 3rd grade!!
In some ways, I am glad to have the time to teach during those mandated 45 min. The kids hated Spanish classes for the very reasons you have expressed, XO. It's no different here.
Languages are beautiful tools, don't get me wrong, but they have to be taught...not brushed like butter on garlic bread. The children ended up resenting the language in the end. That's not what bi-lingual ed should be about.
Re invent? Yes, perhaps.
Let's make sure all of our kids can read and compute, first.
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Imagine that, abolishing Spanish classes in the only officially bilingual state.
I graduated from NMSU in 'Cruces in 1964. I would imagine that one hears quite a bit more Spanish there than in Rio Rancho.
I find it ghastly that after something like TEN YEARS of English in grades 3 through 12, most of my students cannot speak three sentences without making some major error in English, of precisely the sort that English classes are supposed to eliminate.
Not only do we not teach the structure of English, and only focus on the remediation of nonstandard grammar, we don't even do this well.
I have met Dutchmen, Belgians, Germans and Danes that speak American-accented English so well that they could be Americans raised in the USA. Their foreignness is only apparent when they misuse idioms and slang.
We don't even come close in Spanish, a far easier language with fewer sounds and a totally logical spelling system, or certainly not as often.
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I was in line the other day at Kroger. Two Hispanic ladies were buying a pack of cigarettes. The Jamaican cashier was requesting proof of age. The Hispanics did not understand. I asked the ladies in pidgen Spanish how old they were, probably something i picked up watching the OJ chase on Univision, basically asking how many years. They said something in the forties. I gave the cashier a fake birthdate. They gracias'd me and i de nada'd them and all was well in the checkout line. Jane Fonda was not on the cover of any of the tabloids.
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I was in line the other day at Kroger. Two Hispanic ladies were buying a pack of cigarettes. The Jamaican cashier was requesting proof of age. The Hispanics did not understand. I asked the ladies in pidgen Spanish how old they were, probably something i picked up watching the OJ chase on Univision, basically asking how many years. They said something in the forties. I gave the cashier a fake birthdate. They gracias'd me and i de nada'd them and all was well in the checkout line. Jane Fonda was not on the cover of any of the tabloids.
I have had that sort of conversation , in which grammer is absent and the tiny mutual knoledge must suffice.
XO do you consider Foreign language instruction the sort of national priority that deserves big government involvement?
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I have had that sort of conversation , in which grammar is absent and the tiny mutual knowledge must suffice.
XO do you consider Foreign language instruction the sort of national priority that deserves big government involvement?
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There are tow essential parts to speaking a language: (a)Vocabulary~ you must know the words, and (b) Grammar ~ you must know how to use the words to convey meaning. It really isn't possible to say ANYTHING without grammar being involved. The right forms of the words must be used, and the words must be in the proper order, or close to it. Grammar is NEVER absent. It is possible that in some cases, the order of the words and perhaps the forms o0f the words are the same in both the FL and one's native language.
for example, How old are you? translated directly into Spanish with no attention to grammar would be totally unintelligible to any Spanish speaker, something like Como viejo ser usted?, which either would mean How did you get so old, or gibberish.
Spanish phrases this as ? Cu?ntos a?os tiene usted? How many years (have~ third person sl. of the present indicative tense) you (formal singular form)?
You could memorize the entire question in Spanish as being the equivalent of the entire question in English, and that would not necessitate knowing the grammar, but the words would still be the proper forms in the proper order. The answer (I am forty years old) would be equivalent of I have forty years (Yo tengo cuarenta a?os.) and you could leave the subject pronoun yo off because it isn't required by Spanish as it is by English.
My point is that there is no understanding possible of sentences beyond "yes" and "no" without some knowledge of grammar, either by knowing the grammar, or by memorizing the correct words.
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I don't know whether "big government involvement" would solve the problem of the lack of FL fluency in the US. I don't think that it is constitutional for the feds to dictate what the curriculum of our schools should be as it is for the governments of Sweden, Germany, France or the Netherlands.
Obviously, one reason why Iraq has been so difficult to fight is due to the total lack of literacy and fluency of our troops in Arabic. In addition to being totally ignorant of the culture as well. Our troops might as well be speaking Klingon and acting like Star Trek Klingons as speaking and behaving as they do. They are entirely dependent on their interpreters, and at least some of these are opposed to their being in Iraq.
They translate whatever they wish. "This fool thinks you are a Sunni: tell him you have no weapons or he will arrest you."
We have no business bashing down the doors of Iraqis and telling them what sort of government they must have, of course, and there is zero possibility that we are going to ever have any sizeable population of Arabic speakers in our military.
Certainly, we are lucky that we speak English, which is as much an international language as any other that might prove useful.
I don't foresee the US as a nation, as states or as school districts ever providing adequate instruction in any FL for at least a century. No one in charge gives a damn.
But it still would be a great boon to the people in many, many ways.
As Anatole France said, "When you learn a new language, you gain a soul." It's like a pianists learning the guitar or the bassoon.
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awhile back my cousin was helping give3 directions to a french family here in S.F.
my cousin was borne in america so he doesn`t know metric and the french family doesn`t know american measurement
but strangely when my cous try to use blocks and actrually point to the block thier standing on is 1 block and told them simply walk 4 blocks the french guy kept asking kilometers.
it shows americans are not the slowest folks
I know metric but I`d woud of said 4 blocks
I doubt I would bother figuring with kilometer
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This is my first year as an ESL endorsed teacher. I have one ESL student......Native American child.
Grandpa speaks the native language of Keresan --a lect of the Acoma Pueblo. The student's mother's side of the family is from the Isleta Pueblo where they speak TEWA.
The grandfather comes to all the parent teacher conferences and is the only one in the family who still speaks the native tongue. He is a fun character. He is proud. He and his son, my student's father, never really look me directly in the eye. But grandpa is direct and vocal. He wants to know why we area teaching the metric systme. HE does not have a centimeter at home and does not see why I ask the children to use such a tool for homework. . .
Gosh,according to the census dept. out of about 1700 people in land of Acoma and surrounding pueblos, I am in conversation with one of those individuals (grandfather Pino)each time we conference. That's is so amazing to me.. wow!
Stories he tells....He was punished as a child for speaking his native language. That's a shame.
He could be passing on this language to his grandson, but he does not. That's also a shame. . . and too bad. His grandson is pure pueblo. Rare these days. I have had to shelter a bit of his instruction only because of the fact that he does not understand the math in class. Not due to any lanugage issue, but culturally, I can see that his grandfather and father do not want to learn the white man's way. Intersting, but true. THe Pueblo people are so very gentle and artistic. I would think that my student would be creative in his thinking about mathematics, but he is not allowed to...ironic. His grandfather....the power arm of the family, has somehow taken on that white man way as he is stuck in the idea that if the system isn't broken, why fix it. A sort of stiff armed male.....not willing to change, yet the way he speaks.....it sounds more like my own father's generation.....a sort of Republican stance.....
anyway....
We are a bi-lingual school, and for the past 25+ years we have offered a "maintenance program" for the students. In turn, we receive funds for every child who is a PHLOTE, ELL child. In fact those funds pay for one warm bodied teacher. If a child has even one family member who speaks a second language in the family...be they grandparents, aunts, uncles....then that child is a considered a PHLOTE child (*primary home language other than English)*. If that child needs special eduation, it takes the act of congress to receive help...due to so many law suits against the system. I can see why...but it is also cutting off the nose to spite the face.
Currently we are only providing the "thread of classes" to those students who are mono lingual Spanish speakers. Many of those kids have arrived here directly from Mexico.
In the past, we've provided Spanish for all the children in the school. Now that the NCLB act is up our behinds...we have thrown that part away..at least for now....
The grandfather who is Native Acoma is outraged that his grandson has to be "counted and tested" in order for the system/school district we can make a buck. I don't blame him,really...but I guess I can see the point. XO, you might know more about why such a criteria exists....ie.PHLOTE child=anyone who lives with a family member that speaks a second language...even though that child is not directly spoken to in that language. ...that child is suddenly treated differently in the system.
If any child has a relative who speaks a second language, ..and even if that child has never been exposed to the language...the Government has decided that that child could be in need of ELL, ESL services, testing etc.
Language....love it....
My own heritage of Penn. Dutch----Irish...
"Tie the dog lose and let him run the alley up"
Heard it a lot growing up....
as I did this:
Redd up the room.
I use that to this day. I thought everyone used that word.
It is exclusive to the Penn. Dutch folks, apparently.
By the way...the photo on my profile is a storytellerdoll. Cochiti Pueblo art.
I collect these dolls.
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The US government does not have the power to require this. In addition, we do not have even a tenth of the qualified teachers. Most often, some Sra. Garcia pops in twice a week. Then in the Sophomore year, Mr or Mrs Sanchez spends about 45 minutes five times a week asking ?C?mo se llama Ud.? ?De d?nde es Ud.? ?A qu? hora se cepill? los dientes esta ma?ana? Judging from the students that have taken two or three years of this in MIami-Dade County Public Schools who appear in my ELEMENTARY SPANISH I classes, little is learned, less is remembered. French, being harder in both pronunciation and spelling, is even less effective.
That's exactly what happens in New Mexican public schools, XO. right on!
We did away with Spanish classes this year for the first time, because of our need to teach reading and math.
The only areas left beyond reading and math during our day is grammar, writing, and PE, library..but I have preached this issue enough on here. ha! We've thrown the baby out with the bathwater. We're all such good little teachers..we follow Sr. Bush. He knows everything. He's such a great leader. ::) We promise not to leave ONE child behind, sir!
OTOH; I happen to think that we have been wasting our time teaching 45 minutes of Spanish four days a week, when the children still do not know the difference between Verde and Azul ---by the 3rd grade!!
In some ways, I am glad to have the time to teach during those mandated 45 min. The kids hated Spanish classes for the very reasons you have expressed, XO. It's no different here.
Languages are beautiful tools, don't get me wrong, but they have to be taught...not brushed like butter on garlic bread. The children ended up resenting the language in the end. That's not what bi-lingual ed should be about.
Re invent? Yes, perhaps.
Let's make sure all of our kids can read and compute, first.
Well, I even know Azul. Learned it the other day watching Dora the Explorer with my 3 year old! It means Blue, right?
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Well, I even know Azul. Learned it the other day watching Dora the Explorer with my 3 year old! It means Blue, right?
Azul...Ah True!
http://www.drlemon.net/grammar/colors.html
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The grandfather who is Native Acoma is outraged that his grandson has to be "counted and tested" in order for the system/school district we can make a buck. I don't blame him,really...but I guess I can see the point. XO, you might know more about why such a criteria exists....ie.PHLOTE child=anyone who lives with a family member that speaks a second language...even though that child is not directly spoken to in that language. ...that child is suddenly treated differently in the system.
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I don't know anything about the PHLOTE bit. I assume that the idea is to provide help where it is needed, and since the government can only issue money, that is what it does. I doubt that there are any certified Acoma Pueblo teachers about to spend the money on in your district, but somehow the certification is more important than the knowledge.
I suppose that in some cases, it is...
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I often wonder if bilingual ed was not in our state constitution?? if you will....if children would be experiening what grandpa did years ago....shut up and only speak English!
I suppose being trained to assist and focus on any child who is in need of a lift in language acquisition is a good thing.
I had lunch with my professor of Linguistics again today. Gawd, I would love to own even one tenth of the knowledge you all share in this field.
anyway...I applaud you, XO. thanks again..you are a bright one on this board. I enjoy your read.
Cindy
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http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/november/endangered.html
http://www.nysun.com/article/45847
http://www.sil.org/sociolx/ndg-lg-home.html
http://www.globalpolicy.org/globaliz/cultural/2003/0224language.htm
http://www.ogmios.org/274.htm
http://www.ogmios.org/274.htm
Acoma language teachers are now certified by the pueblo and have access to the Cibola County school system where they teach classes at Laguna-Acoma and Cubero, and also at the Sky City Community School. "We also discovered that one group that was not being helped was the high school aged student," said Leno.
Leno said the program has had tribal members come to the program wanting to teach Keresan, but they discover that just being able to speak the language does not mean they can teach it. "They find out there are lesson plans to develop, and they say that is not how we were taught the language," Leno said.
Leno said it was a little difficult to get the elders to understand that the kids of today are learning in a classroom setting and that new methods can be applied when teaching an ancient language.
The Acoma Retention Program currently has 11 students and is conducting classes in moccasin making for the boys and traditional dress making for the girls. From 2-4:30 p.m., the students - with their Keresan names pinned to their shirts - take instruction from Acoma elders, learning the names of their "tools" in the Keresan dialect.
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wow. plane...that's awsome...you really have researched this. THanks
I teach in the public school system in Albuquerque, where many Acoma families now live instead of a top the high cliffs of the ancient pueblo, but the language is still alive.
It's a shame the the anglosized native american has to feel the need to bury the language. There is a depth of language that must be maintained.....in any culture. I told this to grandfather Pino. Speak to your grandson, speak to him often in your tongue..please....
I guess I am surprised that he has not after all that he experienced as a young male, himself. There's NOTHING worse than to be told to shut up and to stop speaking the very language that is the essence of who we are.
It's not ok to tell a people to tear down that wall of words.
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wow. plane...that's awsome...you really have researched this. THanks
I teach in the public school system in Albuquerque, where many Acoma families now live instead of a top the high cliffs of the ancient pueblo, but the language is still alive.
It's a shame the the anglosized native american has to feel the need to bury the language. There is a depth of language that must be maintained.....in any culture. I told this to grandfather Pino. Speak to your grandson, speak to him often in your tongue..please....
I guess I am surprised that he has not after all that he experienced as a young male, himself. There's NOTHING worse than to be told to shut up and to stop speaking the very language that is the essence of who we are.
It's not ok to tell a people to tear down that wall of words.
Could the "Foxfire " sort of project support itself in an Indian community , in spite of current difficultys with school administration and federal funding?
Kids involved in the Foxfire books and magazines would seek out older people in their community and interview them , producing Magazine articls and book chapters that sold at a profit , whilst also learning to interview , compose and edit.
I bought every Foxfire book and read every word , it was exelent. The idea guy for the project got into troubble for molesting students and the project has shrunk. Man .... I wish he hadn't done anything like that , he betrayed his students and wounded a very worthy project.
Produceing a connection between the youngest and the eldest generations in their community , recording the traditions and methods of survival remembered by so tragicly few the Foxfire project is good for everyone involved , the Young learn Journalistic skill and the orth of their elders , the elders enjoy haveing the attention .
There is a current rise in intreast in Native tradition , perhaps a book could be sold ,made in this manner , a self supporting project.
http://www.foxfire.org/
Foxfire" is a method of classroom instruction?not a step-by-step checklist, but an over-arching approach that incorporates the original Foxfire classroom's building blocks of giving students the opportunity to make decisions about how they learn required material, using the community around them as a resource to aid that learning, and giving the students an audience beyond the teacher and the classroom for their work.
Most importantly, "Foxfire" is the living connection between the high school students in the magazine program and their heritage, built through continued interaction with their elders. These students, through their own choices, have worked for four decades to document and preserve the stories, crafts, trades, and the personalities of their families, neighbors, and friends. By doing so, they have preserved this unique American culture for generations to come
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wow. plane...that's awsome...you really have researched this. THanks
I teach in the public school system in Albuquerque, where many Acoma families now live instead of a top the high cliffs of the ancient pueblo, but the language is still alive.
It's a shame the the anglosized native american has to feel the need to bury the language. There is a depth of language that must be maintained.....in any culture. I told this to grandfather Pino. Speak to your grandson, speak to him often in your tongue..please....
I guess I am surprised that he has not after all that he experienced as a young male, himself. There's NOTHING worse than to be told to shut up and to stop speaking the very language that is the essence of who we are.
It's not ok to tell a people to tear down that wall of words.
Could the "Foxfire " sort of project support itself in an Indian community , in spite of current difficultys with school administration and federal funding?
Kids involved in the Foxfire books and magazines would seek out older people in their community and interview them , producing Magazine articls and book chapters that sold at a profit , whilst also learning to interview , compose and edit.
I bought every Foxfire book and read every word , it was exelent. The idea guy for the project got into troubble for molesting students and the project has shrunk. Man .... I wish he hadn't done anything like that , he betrayed his students and wounded a very worthy project.
Produceing a connection between the youngest and the eldest generations in their community , recording the traditions and methods of survival remembered by so tragicly few the Foxfire project is good for everyone involved , the Young learn Journalistic skill and the orth of their elders , the elders enjoy haveing the attention .
There is a current rise in intreast in Native tradition , perhaps a book could be sold ,made in this manner , a self supporting project.
http://www.foxfire.org/
Foxfire" is a method of classroom instruction?not a step-by-step checklist, but an over-arching approach that incorporates the original Foxfire classroom's building blocks of giving students the opportunity to make decisions about how they learn required material, using the community around them as a resource to aid that learning, and giving the students an audience beyond the teacher and the classroom for their work.
Most importantly, "Foxfire" is the living connection between the high school students in the magazine program and their heritage, built through continued interaction with their elders. These students, through their own choices, have worked for four decades to document and preserve the stories, crafts, trades, and the personalities of their families, neighbors, and friends. By doing so, they have preserved this unique American culture for generations to come
My mother grew up in West Virginia. This is something that I am sure she would appreciate. The Native American here is a bit different, Plane. The Navajo and Pueblo people must have something similar to build upon for the perserverance of their people. I will look into this. Gosh, I haven't lived anywhere else but New Mexico, but when I read of Native people in the very area that my own mother was raised, it raises my interst, indeed.
Where do you live?
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Central Georgia
http://www.warner-robins.org/
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Foxfire was a terrific project. Some tribes are doing more than others. Compare the Cherokee and Choctaw websites and you will see what I mean.
Eventually, the combination of casino money and better educated Indians is going to produce something like this. But it has to come from them, or it's bogus.
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Foxfire was a terrific project. Some tribes are doing more than others. Compare the Cherokee and Choctaw websites and you will see what I mean.
Eventually, the combination of casino money and better educated Indians is going to produce something like this. But it has to come from them, or it's bogus.
What would make it bogus ?
It would not be strange if there were someone well prepared to run such a program who was an outsider , should there be wait for an insider to be developed while the eldest continue to die off ?
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What would make it bogus ?
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Suppose some Iraqi designed a description of your culture and your language to be used in your kids' schools.
How would that NOT be bogus?
Think!
The only authentic way to teach Choctaws Choctaw culture would be for a Choctaw to at least have a major role in developing the text and the program.
This would explain why you are so rarely invited to perform Bar Mitzvahs.
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that`s true
a friend of mine learned mandarin in high school .
but it was taught by a french guy and he asked his fellow student who are mandarin if he`s pronouncing it right.
they said they don`t understand a single word he says.
also in the U.S. they teach chinese in text format which alter the pronouciation and make the student unable the read the character as well
I`m not saying a non-chinese can`t teach chinese but you do need someone who actually use the language on a day by day basis for several years.
samething with spanish
textbook spanish is nothing like spoken spanish
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that`s true
a friend of mine learned mandarin in high school .
but it was taught by a french guy and he asked his fellow student who are mandarin if he`s pronouncing it right.
they said they don`t understand a single word he says.
also in the U.S. they teach chinese in text format which alter the pronouciation and make the student unable the read the character as well
I`m not saying a non-chinese can`t teach chinese but you do need someone who actually use the language on a day by day basis for several years.
samething with spanish
textbook spanish is nothing like spoken spanish
My college-age daughter informed me yesterday that after graduation next year she will helping the underground Church in China...brrrr...she naively thinks that if they catch her they will just slap her wirst or perhaps deport her.
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uhm
I don`t know what a underground church is.
but if it`s frowned upon by the chinese government she really really needs to fully know what`s she`s getting into.
thier is no such thing as a slap on the wrist china
just being a U.S. citizen is not gonna be much protection
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What would make it bogus ?
====================================
Suppose some Iraqi designed a description of your culture and your language to be used in your kids' schools.
How would that NOT be bogus?
Think!
The only authentic way to teach Choctaws Choctaw culture would be for a Choctaw to at least have a major role in developing the text and the program.
This would explain why you are so rarely invited to perform Bar Mitzvahs.
Alexis De Toqueville is important as an outside perspective , he is one of the most quoted sorces on that period of American history because he was perceptive and because his perspective as a European validates his evaluation when an American is just jingoistic when makeing the same observation.
White guys who admire Indian culture have written some really good books , Idians are not in any way forbidden to do the same , but what is helped by disqualifying an author from writeing something based on his race?
Wht is going to happen to your career when only Hspanics are allowed to use Espanol?
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The Indian Tipi: Its History, Construction, and Use, by Reginald and Gladys Laubin.
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Books and Articles by Tony Hillerman
The Navajo Mysteries
http://www.umsl.edu/~smueller/books.htm