Author Topic: For what it is worth  (Read 30774 times)

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sirs

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #90 on: June 13, 2007, 05:37:53 PM »
You said that these views were "growing", indicating that they were finding a more receptive audience among Muslims. That requires more than some al-Qaeda leaders words, that requires some real evidence.

So in other words, Js needs to see a whole hell of alot more death and maiming at the hands of Islamofascist terrorists, before he'll take note.  Got it


You say they view bin Laden as a Messianic figure, but have offered no proof.

Yea, all those videos of thousands upon thousands of Muslims, jumping up and down with pictures of Usama each time the U.S. is attacked in some way, is purely my imagination.  Got it



You said their goal is to create a new Caliphate. Again, no proof.

Wrong, I have provided you references to Bin Laden's top aides, making precisely that goal


Now, can you actually back your statements with evidence, or not?

Been there, done that.  Feel free to keep that head firmly afixed to the sand


All you have given is that the population of Muslims is growing (which means nothing) and some comment on the demographics of France (which hints at something, but you won't say what).

Well, since you are completely misrepresenting my reference, best stop here, before I get a migraine


"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #91 on: June 13, 2007, 05:47:44 PM »
Quotes from Osama bin Laden:

"We should fully understand our religion. Fighting is a part of our religion and our Sharia [an Islamic legal code]. Those who love God and his Prophet and this religion cannot deny that. Whoever denies even a minor tenet of our religion commits the gravest sin in Islam."

"Hostility toward America is a religious duty, and we hope to be rewarded for it by God . . . . I am confident that Muslims will be able to end the legend of the so-called superpower that is America. Time Magazine

"The pieces of the bodies of infidels were flying like dust particles. If you would have seen it with your own eyes, you would have been very pleased, and your heart would have been filled with joy." -- At the wedding of his son in southern Kandahar about the 17 sailors who died suicide bombing of the USS Cole off the coast of Yemen

"Every American man is an enemy to us." -- Independent.

" . . . It is far better for anyone to kill a single American soldier than to squander his efforts on other activities." -- May 1998

"We--with God's help--call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson." Feb. 1998 - Bin Laden edict


Responding to the question "are you trying to acquire chemical and nuclear weapons?"

"Acquiring weapons for the defense of Muslims is a religious duty. If I have indeed acquired these weapons, then I thank God for enabling me to do so. And if I seek to acquire these weapons, I am carrying out a duty. It would be a sin for Muslims not to try to possess the weapons that would prevent the infidels from inflicting harm on Muslims." Time Magazine Dec 1998
http://www.usvetdsp.com/osam_qts.htm

 In a never-published interview with a French journalist, Osama bin Laden says that his decision to fight alongside Afghan mujahedeen dated from "the time when the Americans decided to help the Afghans fight the Russians."

"To counter these atheist Russians, the Saudis chose me as their representative in Afghanistan... I did not fight against the communist threat while forgetting the peril from the West."
"For us, the idea was not to get involved more than necessary in the fight against the Russians, which was the business of the Americans, but rather to show our solidarity with our Islamist brothers. I discovered that it was not enough to fight in Afghanistan, but that we had to fight on all fronts against communist or Western oppression. The urgent thing was communism, but the next target was America... This is an open war up to the end, until victory."
 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/edicts.html

We declared jihad against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical. It has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal, whether directly or through its support of the Israeli occupation of the Prophet's Night Travel Land [Palestine].
Osama bin Laden
CNN interview 1997

http://www.allgreatquotes.com/osama_binladen_quotes2.shtml


“America is a great power possessed of tremendous military might and a wide-ranging economy, but all this is built on an unstable foundation which can be targeted, with special attention to its obvious weak spots. If America is hit in one hundredth of these weak spots, God willing, it will stumble, wither away and relinquish world leadership.”
 Osama bin Laden quote

“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.”
 nathanbanks Osama bin Laden quote
 

      â€œThe insistence of the Danish government to refrain from apologizing and its refusal to punish the criminals and take action to prevent this crime from being repeated... shows that the notions of freedom of speech have no roots, especially when it comes to Muslims.”
 Osama bin Laden quote
 
      â€œWe had patience in our fighting with the Soviet Union with simple weapons for 10 years. We exhausted their economy, so they disappeared. We will not abandon our fight until the weapons run out.”
 Osama bin Laden quote
 


 
http://thinkexist.com/quotes/osama_bin_laden/



http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/01/31/gen.binladen.interview/

Plane

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #92 on: June 13, 2007, 05:53:20 PM »
That radical Islam is losing its popular appeal (taking the statistical trend you are describing as true, but with a big caveat as to both the accuracy of the tallies but much more importantly what that means for future behavior, what I'll call the "radicalizing potential) is an approach and a result I have inveighed for since Saddam was in a palace. Not only does it promote neighborly relations, a good of its own, but it makes the conditions for radicalism less prevalent and the nurturance of radicals (in the broad sense) dry up, starving their lifeblood. This is good.

Yet as a vanguard, or even as a renegade band drawing mostly on the disaffected (but they don't; a lot of university-educated are among the ranks of the bad boys), radical Isslam poses a palpable threat, for these reasons: this is the age of WMD and their proliferation; trends change, and there seems to be an inherent tropism -- for the right people under the right circumstances -- to gravitate to a defiant, aggressive stance; and there is the potential (Egypt?) that radicals can take a foothold and screww with the seats of governmental power (see also, Algeria nowadays).

I hope the Pew Poll is right , popularity translates in to recruits, resources , money and hiding places .

It would be nice if our own popularity would grow while the Al Queda popularity shrinks , but without a lot of effort this is not necessarily going to happen.

sirs

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #93 on: June 13, 2007, 05:54:48 PM »
I don't have the time at this moment Plane, but if you get a chance to google (It was either Zarkawi or Zahari or one of the other prominent Usama leaders) who actually referred to their goal of a Caliphate, it'd be appreciated.  If you come across it, please feel free to post it.  Otherwise, I'll take a gander sometime this evening, when I have more time  
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #94 on: June 14, 2007, 04:18:40 PM »
<<"The pieces of the bodies of infidels were flying like dust particles. If you would have seen it with your own eyes, you would have been very pleased, and your heart would have been filled with joy." -- At the wedding of his son in southern Kandahar about the 17 sailors who died suicide bombing of the USS Cole off the coast of Yemen>>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many a carcase they left to be carrion,
Many a livid one, many a sallow-skin--
Left for the white-tail'd eagle to tear it, and
Left for the horny-nibb'd raven to rend it, and
Gave to the garbaging war-hawk to gorge it, and
That gray beast, the wolf of the weald.
Never had huger
Slaughter of heroes
Slain by the sword edge--
Such as old writers
Have writ of in histories--
Hapt in this isle, since
Up from the East hither
Saxon and Angle from
Over the broad billow
Broke into Britain with
Haughty war-workers who
Harried the Welshman, when
Earls that were lured by the
Hunger of glory gat
Hold of the land.

Lanya

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #95 on: June 14, 2007, 08:27:54 PM »
Planned Parenthood is America’s most trusted provider of reproductive health care.

Michael Tee

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #96 on: June 14, 2007, 11:38:22 PM »
You're welcome, Lanya.

This kind of poetry - - exulting in gory detail over the deaths of your enemies in battle - - is a whole sub-genre unto itself.  The Battle of Agincourt is another English one:   "Arms were from shoulders sent/Scalps to the teeth were rent/Down the French peasants went . . . "   There is similar stuff in the Iliad.  There are Old Testament versions as well, one very powerful one I can't recall in detail, but told from the point of view of the womenfolk waiting for their men to return victorious with tons of loot, and wondering what's keeping them, gradually coming to the realization that instead of them fucking up the Hebrews, it was instead the Hebrews who fucked them up.   The modern equivalent I guess would be rap music or video games.

These are pretty basic, albeit primitive, human emotions.  Universal in their scope and appeal.  However, I guess when expressed by Arabs, they become some kind of proof positive of a basic lack of humanity and decency.

Plane

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #97 on: June 14, 2007, 11:46:50 PM »
You're welcome, Lanya.

This kind of poetry - - exulting in gory detail over the deaths of your enemies in battle - - is a whole sub-genre unto itself.  The Battle of Agincourt is another English one:   "Arms were from shoulders sent/Scalps to the teeth were rent/Down the French peasants went . . . "   There is similar stuff in the Iliad.  There are Old Testament versions as well, one very powerful one I can't recall in detail, but told from the point of view of the womenfolk waiting for their men to return victorious with tons of loot, and wondering what's keeping them, gradually coming to the realization that instead of them fucking up the Hebrews, it was instead the Hebrews who fucked them up.   The modern equivalent I guess would be rap music or video games.

These are pretty basic, albeit primitive, human emotions.  Universal in their scope and appeal.  However, I guess when expressed by Arabs, they become some kind of proof positive of a basic lack of humanity and decency.

It is no indicator of freindship.

Michael Tee

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #98 on: June 14, 2007, 11:56:05 PM »
<<It is no indicator of freindship.>>

That's a laugh.  How much friendship did America ever show them?

Plane

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #99 on: June 15, 2007, 12:04:15 AM »
<<It is no indicator of freindship.>>

That's a laugh.  How much friendship did America ever show them?

We made them weathy ,taught them in our univeritys , sold them food at prices below any in history untill their numbers were trippled.

They shoud be so unfreindly to us.

Michael Tee

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #100 on: June 15, 2007, 12:20:28 AM »
<<We made them weathy . . . >>

No, you MADE some of them wealthy and enriched yourselves at the same time with their natural resources.

<<taught them in our univeritys >>

to keep the leadership on your side

<<, sold them food at prices below any in history>>

Where did you get that from?  I wouldn't think their food came from the U.S. when Europe is so much closer.

I don't think any of those actions were as described or were motivated by anything other than greed and self-interest.  The "wealth" you created was drawn from their own natural resources.  They probably could have sold it on the world market for much more than American companies paid for it, but by subverting their leadership, you got a corrupted segment of it to conclude sweetheart deals with American companies and when the local leadership wouldn't play ball, you destroyed it and substituted merciless tyrants who ruled through torture and terror to ensure the permanence of your oil concessions.

The sale of food stuff sounds like pure fantasy to me.  Not even plausible.

Plane

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #101 on: June 15, 2007, 12:38:18 AM »
<<We made them weathy . . . >>

No, you MADE some of them wealthy and enriched yourselves at the same time with their natural resources.

<<taught them in our univeritys >>

to keep the leadership on your side

<<, sold them food at prices below any in history>>

Where did you get that from?  I wouldn't think their food came from the U.S. when Europe is so much closer.

I don't think any of those actions were as described or were motivated by anything other than greed and self-interest.  The "wealth" you created was drawn from their own natural resources.  They probably could have sold it on the world market for much more than American companies paid for it, but by subverting their leadership, you got a corrupted segment of it to conclude sweetheart deals with American companies and when the local leadership wouldn't play ball, you destroyed it and substituted merciless tyrants who ruled through torture and terror to ensure the permanence of your oil concessions.

The sale of food stuff sounds like pure fantasy to me.  Not even plausible.


You don't even know ?

Were you not paying attention as the price of basic foods was driven down by American farmers?
Cannadians also produced proddigious grain crops , it was hardly worthwile for Soviet Communes to plant.


I say again they should treat us in the manner we have treated them, then there would be three times as many Americans in fourty years and we would have our standad of liveing increased a lot as well.

Michael Tee

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #102 on: June 15, 2007, 12:50:30 AM »
I don't know what the Arabs ate or where it came from.  I just doubt very much that they were "fed" by the U.S.A. or if they were, that they didn't pay fair market value or more for every forkful or handful that went into their mouths.

sirs

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #103 on: June 15, 2007, 03:50:29 AM »
Islam's Imperial Dreams
Muslim political ambitions aren't a reaction to Western encroachments.

BY EFRAIM KARSH
Tuesday, April 4, 2006


When satirical depictions of the prophet Muhammad in a Danish newspaper sparked a worldwide wave of Muslim violence early this year, observers naturally focused on the wanton destruction of Western embassies, businesses, and other institutions. Less attention was paid to the words that often accompanied the riots--words with ominous historical echoes. "Hurry up and apologize to our nation, because if you do not, you will regret it," declared Khaled Mash'al, the leader of Hamas, fresh from the Islamist group's sweeping victory in the Palestinian elections:

This is because our nation is progressing and is victorious. . . . By Allah, you will be defeated. . . . Tomorrow, our nation will sit on the throne of the world. This is not a figment of the imagination but a fact. Tomorrow we will lead the world, Allah willing. Apologize today, before remorse will do you no good.

Among Islamic radicals, such gloating about the prowess and imminent triumph of their "nation" is as commonplace as recitals of the long and bitter catalog of grievances related to the loss of historical Muslim dominion. Osama bin Laden has repeatedly alluded to the collapse of Ottoman power at the end of World War I and, with it, the abolition of the Ottoman caliphate. "What America is tasting now," he declared in the immediate wake of 9/11, "is only a copy of what we have tasted. Our Islamic nation has been tasting the same for more than 80 years, of humiliation and disgrace, its sons killed and their blood spilled, its sanctities desecrated." Ayman al-Zawahiri, bin Laden's top deputy, has pointed still farther into the past, lamenting "the tragedy of al-Andalus"--that is, the end of Islamic rule in Spain in 1492.

These historical claims are in turn frequently dismissed by Westerners as delusional, a species of mere self-aggrandizement or propaganda. But the Islamists are perfectly serious, and know what they are doing. Their rhetoric has a millennial warrant, both in doctrine and in fact, and taps into a deep undercurrent that has characterized the political culture of Islam from the beginning. Though tempered and qualified in different places and at different times, the Islamic longing for unfettered suzerainty has never disappeared, and has resurfaced in our own day with a vengeance. It goes by the name of empire.

"I was ordered to fight all men until they say, 'There is no god but Allah.' " With these farewell words, the prophet Muhammad summed up the international vision of the faith he brought to the world. As a universal religion, Islam envisages a global political order in which all humankind will live under Muslim rule as either believers or subject communities. In order to achieve this goal, it is incumbent on all free, male, adult Muslims to carry out an uncompromising "struggle in the path of Allah," or jihad. As the 14th-century historian and philosopher Abdel Rahman ibn Khaldun wrote, "In the Muslim community, the jihad is a religious duty because of the universalism of the Islamic mission and the obligation [to convert] everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force."

As a historical matter, the birth of Islam was inextricably linked with empire. Unlike Christianity and the Christian kingdoms that once existed under or alongside it, Islam has never distinguished between temporal and religious powers, which were combined in the person of Muhammad. Having fled from his hometown of Mecca to Medina in 622 c.e. to become a political and military leader rather than a private preacher, Muhammad spent the last ten years of his life fighting to unify Arabia under his rule. Indeed, he devised the concept of jihad shortly after his migration to Medina as a means of enticing his local followers to raid Meccan caravans. Had it not been for his sudden death, he probably would have expanded his reign well beyond the peninsula.

The Qur'anic revelations during Muhammad's Medina years abound with verses extolling the virtues of jihad, as do the countless sayings and traditions (hadith) attributed to the prophet. Those who participate in this holy pursuit are to be generously rewarded, both in this life and in the afterworld, where they will reside in shaded and ever-green gardens, indulged by pure women. Accordingly, those killed while waging jihad should not be mourned: "Allah has bought from the believers their soul and their possessions against the gift of Paradise; they fight in the path of Allah; they kill and are killed. . . . So rejoice in the bargain you have made with Him; that is the mighty triumph."

But the doctrine's appeal was not just otherworldly. By forbidding fighting and raiding within the community of believers (the umma), Muhammad had deprived the Arabian tribes of a traditional source of livelihood. For a time, the prophet could rely on booty from non-Muslims as a substitute for the lost war spoils, which is why he never went out of his way to convert all of the tribes seeking a place in his Pax Islamica. Yet given his belief in the supremacy of Islam and his relentless commitment to its widest possible dissemination, he could hardly deny conversion to those wishing to undertake it. Once the whole of Arabia had become Muslim, a new source of wealth and an alternative outlet would have to be found for the aggressive energies of the Arabian tribes, and it was, in the Fertile Crescent and the Levant.

Within twelve years of Muhammad's death, a Middle Eastern empire, stretching from Iran to Egypt and from Yemen to northern Syria, had come into being under the banner of Islam. By the early 8th century, the Muslims had hugely extended their grip to Central Asia and much of the Indian subcontinent, had laid siege to the Byzantine capital of Constantinople, and had overrun North Africa and Spain. Had they not been contained in 732 at the famous battle of Poitiers in west central France, they might well have swept deep into northern Europe.

Though sectarianism and civil war divided the Muslim world in the generations after Muhammad, the basic dynamic of Islam remained expansionist. The short-lived Umayyad dynasty (661-750) gave way to the ostensibly more pious Abbasid caliphs, whose readiness to accept non-Arabs solidified Islam's hold on its far-flung possessions. From their imperial capital of Baghdad, the Abbasids ruled, with waning authority, until the Mongol invasion of 1258. The most powerful of their successors would emerge in Anatolia, among the Ottoman Turks who invaded Europe in the mid-14th century and would conquer Constantinople in 1453, destroying the Byzantine empire and laying claim to virtually all of the Balkan peninsula and the eastern Mediterranean.

Like their Arab predecessors, the Ottomans were energetic empire-builders in the name of jihad. By the early 16th century, they had conquered Syria and Egypt from the Mamluks, the formidable slave soldiers who had contained the Mongols and destroyed the Crusader kingdoms. Under Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent, they soon turned northward. By the middle of the 17th century they seemed poised to overrun Christian Europe, only to be turned back in fierce fighting at the gates of Vienna in 1683--on September 11, of all dates. Though already on the defensive by the early 18th century, the Ottoman empire--the proverbial "sick man of Europe"--would endure another 200 years. Its demise at the hands of the victorious European powers of World War I, to say nothing of the work of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, the father of modern Turkish nationalism, finally brought an end both to the Ottoman caliphate itself and to Islam's centuries-long imperial reach.

To Islamic historians, the chronicles of Muslim empire represent a model of shining religious zeal and selfless exertion in the cause of Allah. Many Western historians, for their part, have been inclined to marvel at the perceived sophistication and tolerance of Islamic rule, praising the caliphs' cultivation of the arts and sciences and their apparent willingness to accommodate ethnic and religious minorities. There is some truth in both views, but neither captures the deeper and often more callous impulses at work in the expanding umma set in motion by Muhammad. For successive generations of Islamic rulers, imperial dominion was dictated not by universalistic religious principles but by their prophet's vision of conquest and his summons to fight and subjugate unbelievers.

That the worldly aims of Islam might conflict with its moral and spiritual demands was evident from the start of the caliphate. Though the Umayyad monarchs portrayed their constant wars of expansion as "jihad in the path of Allah," this was largely a façade, concealing an increasingly secular and absolutist rule. Lax in their attitude toward Islamic practices and mores, they were said to have set aside special days for drinking alcohol--specifically forbidden by the prophet--and showed little inhibition about appearing nude before their boon companions and female singers.

The coup staged by the Abbasids in 747-49 was intended to restore Islam's true ways and undo the godless practices of their predecessors; but they too, like the Umayyads, were first and foremost imperial monarchs. For the Abbasids, Islam was a means to consolidating their jurisdiction and enjoying the fruits of conquest. They complied with the stipulations of the nascent religious law (shari'a) only to the extent that it served their needs, and indulged in the same vices--wine, singing girls, and sexual license--that had ruined the reputation of the Umayyads.

Of particular importance to the Abbasids was material splendor. On the occasion of his nephew's coronation as the first Abbasid caliph, Dawud ibn Ali had proclaimed, "We did not rebel in order to grow rich in silver and in gold." Yet it was precisely the ever-increasing pomp of the royal court that would underpin Abbasid prestige. The gem-studded dishes of the caliph's table, the gilded curtains of the palace, the golden tree and ruby-eyed golden elephant that adorned the royal courtyard were a few of the opulent possessions that bore witness to this extravagance.

The riches of the empire, moreover, were concentrated in the hands of the few at the expense of the many. While the caliph might bestow thousands of dirhams on a favorite poet for reciting a few lines, ordinary laborers in Baghdad carried home a dirham or two a month. As for the empire's more distant subjects, the caliphs showed little interest in their conversion to the faith, preferring instead to colonize their lands and expropriate their wealth and labor. Not until the third Islamic century did the bulk of these populations embrace the religion of their imperial masters, and this was a process emanating from below--an effort by non-Arabs to escape paying tribute and to remove social barriers to their advancement. To make matters worse, the metropolis plundered the resources of the provinces, a practice inaugurated at the time of Muhammad and reaching its apogee under the Abbasids. Combined with the government's weakening control of the periphery, this shameless exploitation triggered numerous rebellions throughout the empire.

Tension between the center and the periphery was, indeed, to become the hallmark of Islam's imperial experience. Even in its early days, under the Umayyads, the empire was hopelessly overextended, largely because of inadequate means of communication and control. Under the Abbasids, a growing number of provinces fell under the sway of local dynasties. With no effective metropolis, the empire was reduced to an agglomeration of entities united only by the overarching factors of language and religion. Though the Ottomans temporarily reversed the trend, their own imperial ambitions were likewise eventually thwarted by internal fragmentation.

In the long history of Islamic empire, the wide gap between delusions of grandeur and the centrifugal forces of localism would be bridged time and again by force of arms, making violence a key element of Islamic political culture. No sooner had Muhammad died than his successor, Abu Bakr, had to suppress a widespread revolt among the Arabian tribes. Twenty-three years later, the head of the umma, the caliph Uthman ibn Affan, was murdered by disgruntled rebels; his successor, Ali ibn Abi Talib, was confronted for most of his reign with armed insurrections, most notably by the governor of Syria, Mu'awiya ibn Abi Sufian, who went on to establish the Umayyad dynasty after Ali's assassination. Mu'awiya's successors managed to hang on to power mainly by relying on physical force, and were consumed for most of their reign with preventing or quelling revolts in the diverse corners of their empire. The same was true for the Abbasids during the long centuries of their sovereignty.

Western academics often hold up the Ottoman empire as an exception to this earlier pattern. In fact the caliphate did deal relatively gently with its vast non-Muslim subject populations--provided that they acquiesced in their legal and institutional inferiority in the Islamic order of things. When these groups dared to question their subordinate status, however, let alone attempt to break free from the Ottoman yoke, they were viciously put down. In the century or so between Napoleon's conquests in the Middle East and World War I, the Ottomans embarked on an orgy of bloodletting in response to the nationalist aspirations of their European subjects. The Greek war of independence of the 1820's, the Danubian uprisings of 1848 and the attendant Crimean war, the Balkan explosion of the 1870's, the Greco-Ottoman war of 1897--all were painful reminders of the costs of resisting Islamic imperial rule.

Nor was such violence confined to Ottoman Europe. Turkey's Afro-Asiatic provinces, though far less infected with the nationalist virus, were also scenes of mayhem and destruction. The Ottoman army or its surrogates brought force to bear against Wahhabi uprisings in Mesopotamia and the Levant in the early 19th century, against civil strife in Lebanon in the 1840's (culminating in the 1860 massacres in Mount Lebanon and Damascus), and against a string of Kurdish rebellions. In response to the national awakening of the Armenians in the 1890's, Constantinople killed tens of thousands--a taste of the horrors that lay ahead for the Armenians during World War I.

The legacy of this imperial experience is not difficult to discern in today's Islamic world. Physical force has remained the main if not the sole instrument of political discourse in the Middle East. Throughout the region, absolute leaders still supersede political institutions, and citizenship is largely synonymous with submission; power is often concentrated in the hands of small, oppressive minorities; religious, ethnic, and tribal conflicts abound; and the overriding preoccupation of sovereigns is with their own survival.

At the domestic level, these circumstances have resulted in the world's most illiberal polities. Political dissent is dealt with by repression, and ethnic and religious differences are settled by internecine strife and murder. One need only mention, among many instances, Syria's massacre of 20,000 of its Muslim activists in the early 1980's, or the brutal treatment of Iraq's Shiite and Kurdish communities until the 2003 war, or the genocidal campaign now being conducted in Darfur by the government of Sudan and its allied militias. As for foreign policy in the Middle East, it too has been pursued by means of crude force, ranging from terrorism and subversion to outright aggression, with examples too numerous and familiar to cite.

Reinforcing these habits is the fact that, to this day, Islam has retained its imperial ambitions. The last great Muslim empire may have been destroyed and the caliphate left vacant, but the dream of regional and world domination has remained very much alive. Even the ostensibly secular doctrine of pan-Arabism has been effectively Islamic in its ethos, worldview, and imperialist vision. In the words of Nuri Said, longtime prime minister of Iraq and a prominent early champion of this doctrine: "Although Arabs are naturally attached to their native land, their nationalism is not confined by boundaries. It is an aspiration to restore the great tolerant civilization of the early caliphate."

That this "great tolerant civilization" reached well beyond today's Middle East is not lost on those who hope for its restoration. Like the leaders of al Qaeda, many Muslims and Arabs unabashedly pine for the reconquest of Spain and consider their 1492 expulsion from the country a grave historical injustice waiting to be undone. Indeed, as immigration and higher rates of childbirth have greatly increased the number of Muslims within Europe itself over the past several decades, countries that were never ruled by the caliphate have become targets of Muslim imperial ambition. Since the late 1980's, Islamists have looked upon the growing population of French Muslims as proof that France, too, has become a part of the House of Islam. In Britain, even the more moderate elements of the Muslim community are candid in setting out their aims. As the late Zaki Badawi, a doyen of interfaith dialogue in the UK, put it, "Islam is a universal religion. It aims to bring its message to all corners of the earth. It hopes that one day the whole of humanity will be one Muslim community."

Whether in its militant or its more benign version, this world-conquering agenda continues to meet with condescension and denial on the part of many educated Westerners. To intellectuals, foreign-policy experts, and politicians alike, "empire" and "imperialism" are categories that apply exclusively to the European powers and, more recently, to the United States. In this view of things, Muslims, whether in the Middle East or elsewhere, are merely objects--the long-suffering victims of the aggressive encroachments of others. Lacking an internal, autonomous dynamic of its own, their history is rather a function of their unhappy interaction with the West, whose obligation it is to make amends. This perspective dominated the widespread explanation of the 9/11 attacks as only a response to America's (allegedly) arrogant and self-serving foreign policy, particularly with respect to the Arab-Israeli conflict.

As we have seen, however, Islamic history has been anything but reactive. From Muhammad to the Ottomans, the story of Islam has been the story of the rise and fall of an often astonishing imperial aggressiveness and, no less important, of never quiescent imperial dreams. Even as these dreams have repeatedly frustrated any possibility for the peaceful social and political development of the Arab-Muslim world, they have given rise to no less repeated fantasies of revenge and restoration and to murderous efforts to transform fantasy into fact. If, today, America is reviled in the Muslim world, it is not because of its specific policies but because, as the preeminent world power, it blocks the final realization of this same age-old dream of regaining, in Zawahiri's words, the "lost glory" of the caliphate.

Nor is the vision confined to a tiny extremist fringe. This we saw in the overwhelming support for the 9/11 attacks throughout the Arab and Islamic worlds, in the admiring evocations of bin Laden's murderous acts during the crisis over the Danish cartoons, and in such recent findings as the poll indicating significant reservoirs of sympathy among Muslims in Britain for the "feelings and motives" of the suicide bombers who attacked London last July. In the historical imagination of many Muslims and Arabs, bin Laden represents nothing short of the new incarnation of Saladin, defeater of the Crusaders and conqueror of Jerusalem. In this sense, the House of Islam's war for world mastery is a traditional, indeed venerable, quest that is far from over.

To the contrary, now that this war has itself met with a so far determined counterattack by the United States and others, and with a Western intervention in the heart of the House of Islam, it has escalated to a new stage of virulence. In many Middle Eastern countries, Islamist movements, and movements appealing to traditionalist Muslims, are now jockeying fiercely for positions of power, both against the Americans and against secular parties. For the Islamists, the stakes are very high indeed, for if the political elites of the Middle East and elsewhere were ever to reconcile themselves to the reality that there is no Arab or Islamic "nation," but only modern Muslim states with destinies and domestic responsibilities of their own, the imperialist dream would die.

It is in recognition of this state of affairs that Zawahiri wrote his now famous letter to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the head of al Qaeda in Iraq, in July 2005. If, Zawahiri instructed his lieutenant, al Qaeda's strategy for Iraq and elsewhere were to succeed, it would have to take into account the growing thirst among many Arabs for democracy and a normal life, and strive not to alienate popular opinion through such polarizing deeds as suicide attacks on fellow Muslims. Only by harnessing popular support, Zawahiri concluded, would it be possible to come to power by means of democracy itself, thereby to establish jihadist rule in Iraq, and then to move onward to conquer still larger and more distant realms and impose the writ of Islam far and wide.

Something of the same logic clearly underlies the carefully plotted rise of Hamas in the Palestinian Authority, the (temporarily thwarted) attempt by the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt to exploit the demand for free elections there, and the accession of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in Iran. Indeed, as reported by Mark MacKinnon in the Toronto Globe & Mail, some analysts now see a new "axis of Islam" arising in the Middle East, uniting Hizballah, Hamas, Iran, Syria, the Muslim Brotherhood, elements of Iraq's Shiites, and others in an anti-American, anti-Israel alliance backed by Russia.

Whether or not any such structure exists or can be forged, the fact is that the fuel of Islamic imperialism remains as volatile as ever, and is very far from having burned itself out. To deny its force is the height of folly, and to imagine that it can be appeased or deflected is to play into its hands. Only when it is defeated, and when the faith of Islam is no longer a tool of Islamic political ambition, will the inhabitants of Muslim lands, and the rest of the world, be able to look forward to a future less burdened by Saladins and their gory dreams.

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Also of interest:
Al-Qaida letter details plan for caliphate

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Amianthus

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #104 on: June 15, 2007, 07:44:09 AM »
Where did you get that from?  I wouldn't think their food came from the U.S. when Europe is so much closer.

Don't see why the rest of the middle east is further away than Egypt, Taiwan, and South Korea.

Quote
The United States ran a significant trade surplus in raw grain with foreign partners in 1999, totaling $9.4 billion. Major export markets included Japan, Mexico, South Korea, Egypt, Taiwan, and the European Union.
U.S. GRAIN SECTOR FACED VOLATILE WORLD MARKETS IN LATE 1990s, REPORTS ITC
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)