Author Topic: For what it is worth  (Read 30806 times)

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sirs

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #75 on: June 13, 2007, 03:31:52 PM »
911 Js

And you know what's striking is how you claimed I (& others like domer) were "exaggerating" the threat, even demanding at what price do we pay for doing such.  I then answer it, and in turn ask of you to pretend I'm right, requested what price do we pay for minimizing the threat.  Instead of answering that, you've been tiptoeing all around how A) you're not minimizing it and B) you don't believe in the validity of the threat (minimizing it), all the while avoiding answering my question.  I think I know why, because if I & Domer are right, the price for largely turning a blind eye to the threat is a repeat of history, with a multitude of new 911's, and perhaps this time with WMD.  Best if we don't even consider that, right?      :-\

Oh, BTW, I'm confident you'll be able to produce ducumented %'s of those that were either fighting for or supportive of Hitler's 3rd Reich & Nazi regime.  I mean, they have to be right next to those #'s that supposedly quntify what % of the Muslim population supports and advocates the agenda of militant Islam.  And the evidence of a new Caliphate are the words spoken by Usama and his generals.  one of many references  BUT, I'm sure you'll come up with some rationale to minize their rhetoric....hey, it's just words, right?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #76 on: June 13, 2007, 03:49:57 PM »
So basically you do not have evidence to support your claims of this "growing" threat?

I can certainly find percentages of support for Fascists and fascist candidates in select countries during the rise of Mussolini and Hitler if you wish. I'm willing to bet they will far exceed the percentages of Muslims who believe in the view of Militant Islam as you have alleged.

So you won't support any of your statements?

Quote
1. Who views Osama bin Laden in a messianic context? How many such people hold this view?

2. What evidence do you have that Al-Qaeda's goal is some sort of new Caliphate? What percentage of Muslims would like to see this new Caliphate?

3. You say this mentality seems to be growing thru-out the muslim world, yet you offer no proof other than lack of condemnation, which is not evidence of a growing extremist view. What percentages followed this extremist Al-Qaeda held convert-or-die view in 1980, 1990, 2000, and today? Is it growing? Or not?

4. Growing Muslim populations do not prove anything related to your point and neither do the demographics of France. I think we can agree that these statements are irrelevant.

5. Is their evidence of Islamist terrorists using WMD in an attack?

You're just going to say "9/11" huh?

The website you sent me to was not bad at all. Yet, it did not defend anything you claimed, just gave some details, nothing spectacular.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #77 on: June 13, 2007, 03:54:05 PM »
Fine don't answer it.  3+ times I've asked, and despite my having answered your question immediately regarding the price of exaggerating the threat, you just can't (or unwilling) to believe you might just be wrong, and provide an answer to the price for minimizint the threat.  Because to think that......well, just can't    :-\
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #78 on: June 13, 2007, 04:01:58 PM »
So you cannot provide any evidence that this is even a "growing threat." You have no support to back up the claims you have made to just how dangerous and grave this threat is. All that you've said is what? 9/11 hysteria?

Fine, I'll answer your question (though I have already): in your scenario it would be dangerous to minimize the threat of Militant Islam.


The problem Sirs, is that just like Domer's torture scenario, the reality of the world we are living in does not seem to match the hypothetical world you've set up. Neither you or Domer have illustrated with any evidence or even a clear set of logic as to why this threat is so palpable.

I'm not suggesting simply forgetting it ever happened. Obviously we need to keep vigilant at airport security and with FBI, MI5, and other internal security matters. Yet, engaging in foreign wars and making up statements such as "growing threat" and giving credence to the idea that Muslims passively agree to Militant terrorists is exaggeration of the worst kind and it is telling that you have no real data to support these statements.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #79 on: June 13, 2007, 04:12:02 PM »
Fine, I'll answer your question (though I have already): in your scenario it would be dangerous to minimize the threat of Militant Islam.

That's it?  "Dangerous"??  I'm not sure why I'm even engaged in this thread at this time.  It's like when i get a referral for Physical therapy from a Physcian with a dx of "back pain", and that's it.  What kind of back pain?  Is it skeletal?  Is it structural?  Is it neural?  Are there any precautions, in case there are any compression fx's.  Should they be wearing a brace? 

Define "dangerous" please.  In what context are you applying it, in the event of the risk in minimizing the threat from militant Islam?  It's amazing how you proclaim how terrible it is for me to be "exaggerating" the threat, yet can't understand how I see you doing precisely the same in minimizing it.     ???

And "palpable" was the wake up call we all got on 911
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

gipper

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #80 on: June 13, 2007, 04:15:24 PM »
Presently, though sporadically, preparing the case for a client serving a 60-year term on some serious charges, and thus without the time (or ever the inclination) to prepare an "internet-worthy" defense of the actuality of the threat to us, their region and thereby globally of violent, radical Islam, I nonetheless need go no farther than pointing you to the 9-11 Commission Report, a bipartisan product, and to what seems like a countless parade of popular and scholarly works of the same basic orientation. This does not invite overreaction; rather, it invites (requires, to me) proper reaction.

Plane

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #81 on: June 13, 2007, 04:17:58 PM »
"...statements such as "growing threat" and giving credence to the idea that Muslims passively agree to Militant terrorists is exaggeration of the worst kind ..."


Muslims are active in their opposition to terrorism?

They must be quiet ones.

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #82 on: June 13, 2007, 04:18:16 PM »
That's it?  "Dangerous"??  I'm not sure why I'm even engaged in this thread at this time.  It's like when i get a referral for Physical therapy from a Physcian with a dx of "back pain", and that's it.  What kind of back pain?  Is it skeletal?  Is it structural?  Is it neural?  Are there any precautions, in case there are any compression fx's.  Should they be wearing a brace? 

Define "dangerous" please.  In what context are you applying it, in the event of the risk in minimizing the threat from militant Islam?  It's amazing how you proclaim how terrible it is for me to be "exaggerating" the threat, yet can't understand how I see you doing precisely the same in minimizing it.     ???

And "palpable" was the wake up call we all got on 911

Can you defend the statements you made?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Plane

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #83 on: June 13, 2007, 04:20:35 PM »
Presently, though sporadically, preparing the case for a client serving a 60-year term on some serious charges, and thus without the time (or ever the inclination) to prepare an "internet-worthy" defense of the actuality of the threat to us, their region and thereby globally of violent, radical Islam, I nonetheless need go no farther than pointing you to the 9-11 Commission Report, a bipartisan product, and to what seems like a countless parade of popular and scholarly works of the same basic orientation. This does not invite overreaction; rather, it invites (requires, to me) proper reaction.


"internet-worthy" defense


Hehehehehee

tongue firmly in cheek
are you commenting on quality ?

_JS

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #84 on: June 13, 2007, 04:23:49 PM »
"...statements such as "growing threat" and giving credence to the idea that Muslims passively agree to Militant terrorists is exaggeration of the worst kind ..."


Muslims are active in their opposition to terrorism?

They must be quiet ones.

Are the quiet, or does no one listen?

Pew Poll

Free Muslims

Is it possible that supporters of terrorists simply make the most noise?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #85 on: June 13, 2007, 04:51:01 PM »
That's it?  "Dangerous"??  I'm not sure why I'm even engaged in this thread at this time.  It's like when i get a referral for Physical therapy from a Physcian with a dx of "back pain", and that's it.  What kind of back pain?  Is it skeletal?  Is it structural?  Is it neural?  Are there any precautions, in case there are any compression fx's.  Should they be wearing a brace? 

Define "dangerous" please.  In what context are you applying it, in the event of the risk in minimizing the threat from militant Islam?  It's amazing how you proclaim how terrible it is for me to be "exaggerating" the threat, yet can't understand how I see you doing precisely the same in minimizing it.     ???

And "palpable" was the wake up call we all got on 911

Can you defend the statements you made?

Been doing so.  You're the one pfffting them, and demanding specific #'s, vs the verbal proclaimaitions made by the leaders of militant Islam, to back up said claims, or else the claims can not be accepted.  Just crazy people making crazy talk apparently        :-\
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #86 on: June 13, 2007, 04:53:36 PM »
Pew Poll



Quote
At the same time, most Muslim publics are expressing less support for terrorism than in the past. Confidence in Osama bin Laden has declined markedly in some countries and fewer believe suicide bombings that target civilians are justified in the defense of Islam.

The Bush plan is working!

Quote
The polling also finds that in most majority-Muslim countries surveyed, support for suicide bombings and other acts of violence in defense of Islam has declined significantly. In Turkey, Morocco and Indonesia, 15% or fewer now say such actions are justifiable. In Pakistan, only one-in-four now take that view (25%), a sharp drop from 41% in March 2004. In Lebanon, 39% now regard acts of terrorism as often or sometimes justified, again a sharp drop from the 73% who shared that view in 2002. A notable exception to this trend is Jordan, where a majority (57%) now says suicide bombings and other violent actions are justifiable in defense of Islam.



The Bush plan is working!


Quote
As in past Global Attitudes surveys, publics in predominantly Muslim countries believe that democracy can work in their countries. Large and growing majorities in Morocco (83%), Lebanon (83%), Jordan (80%) and Indonesia (77%) – as well as pluralities in Turkey (48%) and Pakistan (43%) – say democracy can work well and is not just for the West.

The Bush plan can work!

Quote
In most of Europe as well as North America, majorities or pluralities judge some religions as more prone to violence than others, and those that do mostly have Islam in mind. Similarly, in India, among the 39% who see some religions as more violent than others, nearly three-in-four (73%) point to Islam, while 17% designate Hinduism. In predominantly Muslim countries, many agree that some religions are more prone to violence than others, but those who think this mostly have Judaism in mind. In Turkey, a plurality sees Christianity as the most violent.

What is wrong with those Turks?

Quote
While support for suicide bombings and other terrorist acts has fallen in most Muslim-majority nations surveyed, so too has confidence in Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden. In Lebanon, just 2% report some or a lot of confidence in bin Laden, and in Turkey only 7% do so.

In Morocco, just 26% of the public now say they have a lot or some confidence in bin Laden, down sharply from 49% in May 2003. In Indonesia, the public is now about evenly split, with 35% saying they place at least some confidence in bin Laden and 37% saying they have little or none; that represents a major shift since 2003, when 58% expressed confidence in bin Laden.

The Bush plan is working!

Quote
In Pakistan, however, a narrow majority (51%) places some measure of confidence in bin Laden, a slight increase from 45% in 2003. And in Jordan, support for the Al Qaeda leader has risen over the last two years from 55% to a current 60%, including 25% who say they have a lot of confidence in him. Unsurprisingly, support for bin Laden in non-Muslim countries is measured in the small single digits.


Hmmmmm....
Needs more Bush plan application.

Quote
Declining support for terror in a number of the Muslim countries surveyed tracks with previously reported dramatic increases in favorable views of the United States in Indonesia and Morocco. Favorable opinions of the U.S. surged most among younger people in Morocco, but were equally evident among both the young and old in Indonesia. The polling also found that in most Muslim countries women were less likely to express an opinion of the U.S. than were men, but when they did, they held a somewhat more positive view.

The Bush plan is working!


_JS

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #87 on: June 13, 2007, 05:02:06 PM »
Quote
Been doing so.  You're the one pfffting them, and demanding specific #'s, vs the verbal proclaimaitions made by the leaders of militant Islam, to back up said claims, or else the claims can not be accepted.  Just crazy people making crazy talk apparently        :-\

No. You said that these views were "growing", indicating that they were finding a more receptive audience among Muslims. That requires more than some al-Qaeda leaders words, that requires some real evidence.

You say they view bin Laden as a Messianic figure, but have offered no proof.

You said their goal is to create a new Caliphate. Again, no proof.

All you have given is that the population of Muslims is growing (which means nothing) and some comment on the demographics of France (which hints at something, but you won't say what).

So you have no evidence for what you say?

You think that I don't know that Islamists hate America? Is that something new? Am I supposed to change my behavior or outlook on life based on that? No. They've hated America for decades and will continue to for decades. That doesn't show me anything.

Now, can you actually back your statements with evidence, or not?

I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Plane

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #88 on: June 13, 2007, 05:14:05 PM »
Reason Two: Oddly enough, economics. Bin Laden shares with much of the rest of the world a lack of understanding of the meaning of wealth. He does not know that wealth is a property, not a thing. To the extent he and his followers think about such things at all, they do not know that money is an action, not an object. They do not know that value is an opinion and that price is knowledge; these are not objective qualities inherent in a thing. And that makes a difference.

In this world view, during the Caliphate, Arabs and Muslims owned a disproportionately large share of the wealth in the world, which is as it should be. Then came the Crusades – which still continue today, by the way – and the armies of the West came and stole the wealth belonging to its rightful owners, Arabs and Muslims. This, and this alone, is the reason that the West, including America (which didn’t exist when the Crusades began, but never mind), is now wealthy and prosperous, and the people of the Middle East are poor and powerless. Al-Qaida’s campaign, then, is meant both to kill unbelievers and to restore their stolen wealth to its rightful owners, defined naturally enough as Al-Qaida’s members and cooperating groups, who are the only true believers in the One True God.

All that is clear from, again, the fatwa, which explains:

“The Arabian Peninsula has never--since God made it flat, created its desert, and encircled it with seas--been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies now spreading in it like locusts, consuming its riches and destroying its plantations. All this is happening at a time when nations are attacking Muslims like people fighting over a plate of food.”

This claim is made even more difficult to accept, as I have said, coming from a Saudi, the beneficiary of so much American money poured into the Kingdom to pay for its oil. But if you believe that wealth is fixed, then it is clear that the West can only be more prosperous than others because it is extracting their wealth without giving a fair return. Bin Laden has written, “As a result of the policy imposed on the country, especially in the field of oil industry where production is restricted or expanded and prices are fixed to suit the American economy ignoring the economy of the country.” He truly believes that all the billions of dollars pumped into Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States were an underpayment for the true value of the oil. After all, most people in those countries are still underprivileged and poor, and most people in America and the West, according to his standards, live in wealth and decadence.

The idea that wealth is created by human action, by the workings of a free market, is not only inconceivable to these people, it is blasphemy. It implies that humans can create something, when their faith insists that only Allah can create.
Put in the terms I have used, it seems absurd to believe that the wealth of the world is a fixed sum. Yet precisely that belief is the basis of the economic policies of many countries. For instance, the confiscatory tariffs and restrictive investment policies in Asian countries like India are based on the belief that making a profit on an investment is stealing wealth from the host country. It is the same idea as that of the presidential campaign of H. Ross Perot, who said that any job created in Mexico by the Free Trade Agreement was a job lost in America.


http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=1917

gipper

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #89 on: June 13, 2007, 05:27:49 PM »
That radical Islam is losing its popular appeal (taking the statitistical trend you are describing as true, but with a big caveat as to both the accuracy of the tallies but much more importantly what that means for future behavior, what I'll call the "radicalizing potential) is an approach and a result I have inveighed for since Saddam was in a palace. Not only does it promote neighborly relations, a good of its own, but it makes the conditions for radicalism less prevalent and the nurturance of radicals (in the broad sense) dry up, starving their lifeblood. This is good.

Yet as a vanguard, or even as a renegade band drawing mostly on the disaffected (but they don't; a lot of university-educated are among the ranks of the bad boys), radical Isslam poses a palpable threat, for these reasons: this is the age of WMD and their proliferation; trends change, and there seems to be an inherent tropism -- for the right people undeer the right cirumstances -- to gravitate to a defiant, agressive stance; and there is the potential (Egypt?) that radicals can take a foothold and screww with the seats of governmental power (see also, Algeria nowadays).