Author Topic: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!  (Read 20375 times)

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BSB

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #135 on: November 01, 2012, 08:48:41 AM »
I think Sirs is obsessive compulsive. He has to respond, he has to disagree, he has to post. He has no control over his own mind. Sad.

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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #136 on: November 01, 2012, 09:58:05 AM »
I think Sirs is obsessive compulsive. He has to respond, he has to disagree, he has to post. He has no control over his own mind. Sad.

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I concur with your diagnosis.
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #137 on: November 01, 2012, 10:01:36 AM »
You are so wrapped up in having to be right, you refuse to acknowledge the truth and continue to look for some niggling little point to grasp onto. It's a game I am tired of playing.

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I have the same  opinion, sirs does not wish to debate. Only adulation and submission. A typical Big Swinging Dick Syndrome symptom.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #138 on: November 01, 2012, 11:29:52 AM »
If you are so worried about who/what/where the false information came from, you go back and dig through the archives, here and at antiwar.com, and you might, if you take your blinders off, find out. I have wasted enough time digging around and doing your research for you. I've already posted the information I had several times over through the years.

I could really care less anymore, other than to defend myself against your erroneous claims of what you think I said. And to tell the truth, I can see it is a waste of time pointing out even those facts to you. You are so wrapped up in having to be right, you refuse to acknowledge the truth and continue to look for some niggling little point to grasp onto. It's a game I am tired of playing
.

So, I provide a perfect opportunity to "set me straight", with the above noted "for the record..let's make sure we've got this completely cleared up, so I'm not putting words in your mouth" and instead of a "yes" or a "no", here again, you're going off as some victim, when I'm using your own references to Bushco & dishonest, and your insistance that you never specifically said "lied us into war"

You'd make a great politician "answering" without ever actually answering a question, then spin it as if people like myself are putting "words in your mouth".  Perhaps if you spent a little more time answering a direct question, vs crying how unfair I'm supposedly being by asking it in the 1st place or concluding a position based on the totality & context of your comments, we might actually be getting somewhere, in this debate.

As far as Xo & BsB "contributions" to the discussion....well, looks like B's been getting lessons from Xo
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #139 on: November 01, 2012, 01:14:11 PM »
Watch him swing dat thing!
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

hnumpah

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #140 on: November 01, 2012, 01:14:39 PM »
So now it's not what I said that I didn't actually say about Bush...

Or what I said but didn't actually say about Bushco...

But we're back again to I have to specifically answer your question according to your strict parameters?

Black...infinite shades of gray...white. Ring a bell? Is that too difficult a concept for you to grasp?

Let's try it this way...

Scenario 1: Bush and his entire administration knew, from available intelligence, that there were no WMD's. But a source comes along and tells another country's intelligence service that there are, and that country passes this on to the US. Without vetting that source or interviewing him themselves, and based solely on the reports passed along by this other country, Bush and his administration grab this as their excuse to invade and run with it.

Scenario 2: Available American and UN intelligence sources most strongly point to there being no WMD's and indicate Saddam is bluffing. But one group, who might have something to gain if we went to war, insists there are WMD's. This, along with the story passed along by the other country from the same source mentioned in Scenario 1 (who, by the way, later admitted his lies and that he had made up the entire story) is used to push the story that, indeed, Saddam does have WMD's.

Now, in between there are any number of alternates. Did Bush know there were no WMD's, but go along with the WMD lies knowingly? Was he not sure, and just took the advice of someone in his administration who knew there were no WMD's, but pushed the false information for some reason? Was everyone not sure, and duped by the false source? Or was it some combination of the above?

Feel free to draw your own conclusions. I've drawn mine, based on what I've seen so far, but they are fluid, because I don't quite feel the entire story has come out yet. That is why I don't come out and say this and this and this is exactly what happened.

Perhaps now you will begin to understand.
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BSB

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #141 on: November 01, 2012, 02:33:41 PM »
Since the CIA's inception it has largely been a failed institution. That is its documented history. They have had some successes, the overthrow of the Taliban after 9/11 being one shining example. But their failure concerning WMD in Iraq went on for over a decade. They missed it in the other direction back in the early 90s. Cheney used that failure to pump up the need to invade in 2003.  So in fact a CIA failure on estimates of the amount of WMD in Iraq was used to sell the CIA's estimate of WMD in Iraq.

What really happened? Bush and Co. were not to be denied.  They were going to invade Iraq come hell or high water. If they had to use an intelligence failure to shore up an intelligence estimate, so be it.  Any way they could fool themselves into believing an invasion was necessary, they used it. More then anything else though it was a confluence of human failings from a series of different sources. They all came together in the build up to the invasion,  the actual invasion itself, and it's terrifying years long aftermath.     


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sirs

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #142 on: November 01, 2012, 03:55:40 PM »
Couldn't help but notice in H's 2 ends of black scenarios, with all that gray in the middle, is the continued alternate version that someone(s) are being dishonest (and knew there were no WMD's) <--> someone(s) being opportunistic (and intel said no WMD's).  And everything in the middle is all that gray

BIG problem, the predominance of intel SAID there were WMD's, which kinda debunks both ends of the black scenarios.

You see, this is where your house of cards keeps coming down....you've so invested that someone, be it the intel community, Cheney, or .... had concluded there were no WMD.  THAT'S FACTUALLY INCORRECT.  Yes, if we cherry pick a report here and a report there, one might try and convince themselves that indeed there were no WMD, but the predominant conclusion, across the globe, not just our little 'ol CIA, concluded (wrongly) that Saddam still had his stockpiles.

so let's appropriately add a 3rd black scenario
Scenario 3:  Global intel concluded Saddam had WMD.  Intel available also connected Saddam with AlQeada, both directly & indirectly.  Following the events of 911, in which AlQeada terrorists murdered 3000 Americans on American soil, with the support of his advisors, and a majority of both Congress and the American populace, a judgement call was made to go into Iraq to take down that regime before any of those WMD's found their way into more AlQeada terrorists or their supporters

Now, with that added point, you can produce a triangle outlined in black, and start sifting thru all the gray to come to your own conclusions.  I've drawn mine based on facts & common sense, and very little cherry picking

I also appreciate Bsb's fantasy world.  Provides a nice bit of entertainment, in between the more mature conversations
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 04:35:36 PM by sirs »
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #143 on: November 01, 2012, 04:09:32 PM »
Bsb knows about Earth; sirs limits himself to the bizarro world of Planet sirs.
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hnumpah

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #144 on: November 01, 2012, 04:40:59 PM »
Everyone agreed? I think you are mistaken.

During the second presidential debate in 2004, Bush claimed that everyone thought Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction before the invasion.

By Eric Alterman and George Zornick | June 12, 2008

“We all thought there was weapons there,” President George W. Bush explained to a presidential debate moderator in 2004 when asked if the absence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq undercut the rationale for occupying the country.
 
The claim that the entire world agreed Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction before the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq has been asserted countless times by the Bush administration and its supporters since we all learned it was the stuff of fiction. “Everybody agreed,” former White House Press Secretary Tony Snow told Wolf Blitzer in May 2007. “We all thought that the intelligence case was strong,” Condoleezza Rice said in April 2007, adding that even, “the U.N weapons inspectors [thought] Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction…. So there’s no blame here of anyone.” Etc., etc.
 
The media almost always embrace this excuse, as well. Yet former White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan’s revelatory new memoir, together with the quietly released report on intelligence manipulation by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, leave no doubt that the Bush administration took the nation into war on false pretenses of mushroom clouds and weapons trailers.
 
Karl Rove, for example, told Bill O’Reilly on May 29 when talking about McClellan’s book that, “everybody in the West, every major intelligence agency in the world, thought that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.” We hate to be the proverbial skunk at this garden party, but let’s roll back the clock for a moment to see what “everyone” actually said and thought at the time.
 
Let us begin with America’s own intelligence agencies. Did they agree there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? Well, no. The aforementioned Select Committee on Intelligence report, which was signed by all of the committee’s Democrats, along with two Republicans, said that while the administration’s statements on Iraq’s nuclear capabilities were supported by some intelligence, the administration’s statements, “did not convey the substantial disagreements that existed in the intelligence community.”
 
On the issue of weapons of mass destruction in general, the report found that administration officials exhibited a “higher level of certainty than the intelligence judgments themselves.” The report also found that, “Statements by the President and Vice President prior to the October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate regarding Iraq’s chemical weapons production capability and activities did not reflect the intelligence community’s uncertainties as to whether such production was ongoing.”
 
We know also that the Bush administration encouraged the CIA to go as far as possible in supporting its case. The Washington Post reported in June 2003 that Cheney and his Chief of Staff, Scooter Libby, personally visited CIA analysts working on the National Intelligence Estimate of 2002 in order to inspire a re-examination of the case, something that no one could remember happening in any previous administration.
 
Top administration officials, including President Bush and Vice-President Dick Cheney, were also aware of some notable people in the intelligence community who disagreed about WMD claims. Tyler Drumheller, the former chief of the CIA’s Europe division, revealed on “60 Minutes” that in the fall of 2002 President Bush, Vice President Cheney, then-National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, and others were told by CIA Director George Tenet that Iraq’s foreign minister—who agreed to act as a spy for the United States—had reported that Iraq had no active weapons of mass destruction program. Two former senior CIA officials later confirmed this account to Salon’s Sidney Blumenthal.
 
Secretary of State Colin Powell also disagreed at one time—although well before his much-publicized speech to the United Nations in February 2003. Speaking two years earlier in Cairo, Powell had this to say: “He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors.”
 
Anthony Zinni, the Marine general who commanded the air assault in the first Gulf War, also had doubts. “Up until Desert Fox, I believed that [Saddam] had WMD,” he told authors Derek Chollet and James Goldgeier. “Then Clinton said we would bomb the WMD sides. I asked the intelligence community for the targets, but they couldn’t give me any. Nothing they gave me was definitively a WMD target. They were all dual-use. That’s when my doubts began.”
 
Intelligence agencies and top administration officials aside, who else didn’t agree that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction? What about politicians? Here are two of the most senior members of the U.S. Senate:
 ?Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-MA), in September 2002: “nformation from the intelligence community over the past six months does not point to Iraq as an imminent threat to the United States or a major proliferator of weapons of mass destruction.”
 ?Robert Byrd (D-WV), on the day of the invasion: “The case this administration tries to make to justify its fixation with war is tainted by charges of falsified documents and circumstantial evidence.”
 
Were these reports really unavailable to everyone? We don’t think so:
 ?On September 19, 2002, Washington Post reporter Joby Warrick described a report “by independent experts who questioned whether thousands of high-strength aluminum tubes recently sought by Iraq were intended for a secret nuclear weapons program,” as the administration was contending.
 ?On January 30, 2003, Walter Pincus and Dana Priest reported that the evidence the administration was amassing about Baghdad hiding weapons equipment and documents “is still circumstantial.”
 ?Despite the Bush administration’s claims about WMDs, another Pincus story, this one three days before the invasion, began: “U.S. intelligence agencies have been unable to give Congress or the Pentagon specific information about the amounts of banned weapons or where they are hidden, according to administration officials and members of Congress,” raising questions “about whether administration officials have exaggerated intelligence.”
 ?Harper’s publisher John MacArthur was calling bull on Judy Miller’s New York Times reporting on WMDs as early as 2003, writing that “When officials leak a ‘fact’ to Ms. Miller, they then can cite her subsequent stenography in the Times as corroboration of their own propaganda, as though the Times had conducted its own independent investigation.”
 ?Bob Simon of “60 Minutes”interviewed David Albright, a physicist who was a weapons inspector in Iraq during the 1990s, who said in the interview that the administration was, “selectively picking information to bolster a case that the Iraqi nuclear threat was more imminent than it is.”
 
Remember, this is just a column, not a book, and we can provide only a tiny sampling of the conscientious reporting that was consistently provided by what was then the Knight-Ridder Washington bureau (McClatchey), along with critical coverage from much of the alternative press, including The Nation, and even in the rabidly pro-war New Republic.
 
What’s more, these questions were hardly limited to our own media. Remember that Karl Rove insisted “everybody in the West” agreed. But what of these reports?
 ?The Guardian reported on October 12, 2002 that, “Vladimir Putin yesterday rejected Anglo-American claims that Saddam Hussein already possesses weapons of mass destruction … With a tense Mr. Blair alongside him at his dacha near Moscow, the Russian president took the unusual step of citing this week’s sceptical CIA report on the Iraqi military threat to assert: ‘Fears are one thing, hard facts are another.’”
 ?The BBC reported on February 11, 2003, that, “France, Germany, and Russia have released an unprecedented joint declaration on the Iraq crisis, demanding more weapons inspectors and more technical assistance for them . . . ‘Nothing today justifies a war,’ Mr Chirac told a joint news conference with Mr Putin. ‘This region really does not need another war.’ He said France did not have ‘undisputed proof’ that Iraq still held weapons of mass destruction.”
 
Finally, what about the international agencies tasked with actually carrying out inspections in Iraq? These were, after all, the people in the best position to know. What were they saying?
 ?The International Atomic Energy Agency declared in 1998 that Iraq’s nuclear program had been completely dismantled. The UN Special Commission on Iraq estimated then that at least 95 percent of Iraq’s chemical weapons program had been similarly accounted for and destroyed. Iraq’s potential to develop biological weapons is a much bigger question mark, since such a program is much easier to hide. However, UNSCOM noted in 1998 that virtually all of Iraq’s offensive missiles and other delivery systems had been accounted for and rendered inoperable.
 ?Mohamed ElBaradei, head of the IAEA, told the U.N. Security Council in late January 2003 that, “We have to date found no evidence that Iraq has revived its nuclear weapon program since the elimination of the program in the 1990’s.” He also “put the kibosh” on the administration’s charge that Iraq was seeking aluminum tubes for nuclear weapon development. Eleven days before the invasion, he repeated his assertion that there was absolutely no evidence of an Iraqi nuclear program.
 ?Chief U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix said in 2003 of his inspections leading up to the invasion, “The commission has not at any time during the inspections in Iraq found evidence of the continuation or resumption of programs of weapons of mass destruction or significant quantities of proscribed items, whether from pre-1991 or later.”
 ?Scott Ritter, who was chief weapons inspector in Iraq in 1991 and 1998, added this, about the world’s intelligence agencies: “[W]e knew that while we couldn’t account for everything that the Iraqis said they had destroyed, we could only account for 90 to 95 percent, we knew that: (a) we had no evidence of a retained capability and, (b) no evidence that Iraq was reconstituting. And furthermore, the C.I.A. knew this. The British intelligence knew this; Israeli intelligence knew this; German intelligence. The whole world knew this.”
 
So, in short, the claim that “everyone agreed” that the evidence of Iraqi WMD was incontrovertible is simply false. It’s another example of the kind of lazy, gullible reporting in the face of a campaign of deliberate deception that got us into this horrific mess in the first place.
 
Eric Alterman is a Senior Fellow at the Center for American Progress and a Distinguished Professor of English at Brooklyn College, and a professor of journalism at the CUNY Graduate School of Journalism. His blog, “Altercation,” appears at http://www.mediamatters.org/altercation. His seventh book, Why We’re Liberals: A Political Handbook for Post-Bush America, was recently published by Viking.
 
George Zornick is a New York-based writer.

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/media/news/2008/06/12/4534/think-again-iraqi-weapons-of-mass-destruction/
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sirs

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #145 on: November 01, 2012, 06:06:36 PM »
Everyone agreed?

I best stop you right there......no, I did not claim that everyone agreed.  The term, if you got confused with is that a predominance did, as in most.  I'm sure you'll find a few that didn't agree that Saddam still had is WMD, but MOST did.

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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #146 on: November 01, 2012, 06:49:37 PM »
The FACT is that he had no such weapons in any condition that they could harm any Americans, and certainly none in the USA. I said that at the time, and I repeats it again.

Juniorbush wanted a war, as did Cheney and Rumsfeld,and they invented a justification for one based in the shakiest of intelligence. They took advantage of American's rather  hopeless sketchy knowledge of geography and culture as well as the sense of outrage over 9-11. Ten minutes after Juniorbush's announcement, there were Kramer, RR, Cristians and sirs all lined up for battle like four Notre Dame Fighting Irish Leprechauns, their fists raised and pugnacious warlike expressions on their visages.
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sirs

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #147 on: November 01, 2012, 06:54:40 PM »
Quote from: Xavier_Onassis link=topic=17165.msg145316#msg145316 [color=brown
date=1351806577]
The FACT is that he had no such weapons in any condition that they could harm any Americans, and certainly none in the USA. I said that at the time, and I repeats it again.[/color]

That's a fact only AFTER we disposed of Saddam & his regime, nor was anyone referencing that Saddam was going to attack U.S. soil, so don't even try to pull that BS

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hnumpah

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #148 on: November 01, 2012, 06:57:57 PM »
I best stop you right there......no, I did not claim that everyone agreed...

You did on at least one occassion...

...So, what's perfectly reasonable and much easier to lie about, just isn't possible, but trying to perpetuate "bad intel", that was apparently agreed on by everyone else, the French, the Germans, the Russians, the UN, to all diabolically get together and agree with Bush, to pull the wool over the rest of us...

As for the rest....

Putin and Russia rejected the claims of WMD, and France did not have 'undisputed proof' according to Chirac.

The IAEA found no evidence of WMD's.

The UN's chief weapons inspector Hans Blix stated of their search before the invasion that "The commission has not at any time during the inspections in Iraq found evidence of the continuation or resumption of programs of weapons of mass destruction or significant quantities of proscribed items, whether from pre-1991 or later.”

Scott Ritter, who was chief weapons inspector in Iraq in 1991 and 1998, added this, about the world’s intelligence agencies: “[W]e knew that while we couldn’t account for everything that the Iraqis said they had destroyed, we could only account for 90 to 95 percent, we knew that: (a) we had no evidence of a retained capability and, (b) no evidence that Iraq was reconstituting. And furthermore, the C.I.A. knew this. The British intelligence knew this; Israeli intelligence knew this; German intelligence. The whole world knew this.”

So you see, not even nearly everyone agreed.
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sirs

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #149 on: November 01, 2012, 07:04:09 PM »
As I clarified, everyone meant a predominance, in which I've repeated numerous times, and yes, most folks believed it, since most every intel agency had concluded that.  Not referring to a particular person, I'd be referring to most intelligence agencies across the globe.  And last I checked, Saddam was still getting arms from Russia, while France also believed Saddam had WMD, just didn't feel justified in doing anything about it, outside of ongoing sanctions

So, yea, nearly everyone who didn't have a beef against Bush or a financial incentive with Saddam did
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle