DebateGate

General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: sirs on February 19, 2007, 02:24:16 PM

Title: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: sirs on February 19, 2007, 02:24:16 PM
While teaching during school hours, of course.  Such as "War budget leaves every child behind"  How about Anti-war handouts and papers on why you shouldn't join the military, on their front desk, planely visible to all who enter the room?  I'd be curious to see where this thread may lead....if it leads anywhere
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on February 19, 2007, 02:50:51 PM
I would say that teachers have the same right to wear anti-war shirts as pro-war shirts.
It is supposed to be a free country, you are not supposed to be prohibited from promoting or denegrating any cause other than criminal activity, buggery and porn.

It would seem to me that if anti-war materials are removed, then they should also throw out ROTC and recruiters.

Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: Henny on February 19, 2007, 04:17:50 PM
While teaching during school hours, of course.  Such as "War budget leaves every child behind"  How about Anti-war handouts and papers on why you shouldn't join the military, on their front desk, planely visible to all who enter the room?  I'd be curious to see where this thread may lead....if it leads anywhere

I suppose I'm aging myself by answering this way, but... why are teachers wearing t-shirts to school at all??? What happened to button down shirts?  ;)

Generally, the kids aren't allowed to wear controversial clothing, including t-shirts that make inflammatory statements, as well as colored bandanas due to fear of gang violence (and other such examples).

Why should teachers be any different? It is their job to teach, not impress their morals or beliefs on the kids.

I see it in the same light as prayer in school and other such things - parents can tell the kids whatever they want, but don't do it with the tax dollars.
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: sirs on February 19, 2007, 04:28:32 PM
So far, Miss Henny gets an A+ grade, and Xo gets a D+ I'm afraid

And Tee gets an A-.  I'm impressed.  Stunned even      :o
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: Michael Tee on February 19, 2007, 04:54:17 PM
Teachers and students are in a power imbalance and a teacher gratuitously expressing ANY political opinion is IMHO exercising undue influence on the kids.  Kids may not be able to rebut teachers without fear of lowered grades.  It's unfair for teachers to express ANY political opinion on school grounds during school hours, whether the opinion is God's own truth ("Bush Lied They Died") or the clever and misleading militarist slogan "Support Our Troops." 
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on February 19, 2007, 05:09:39 PM
Personally, I have never worn a t-shirt to teach in, and I have never displayed any political materials more impressive than a button suggesting that citizens should vote. I wear printed t-shirts as underwear, and not with anything so transparent as to permit anyone to see that my underwear is promoting a candidate, product or event.

I don't think anyone has really ever convinced any thinking person with a bumpersticker or a campaign button. Of course, a lot of people are not of the thinking persuasion.

 I don't think Coke would spend millions to tell people to "Catch the Wave" or Gatorade would spend so much showing atheletes sweating purple or green as it does if these ads did not produce results. So dumbass slogans (political or otherwise) are probably quite effective with some people.

There is a difference between some slogans and others: "F*ck the Army" seems less acceptable in a high school than the usual campaign slogans.

On the other hand, I believe that a teacher has a complete right to answer questions that students ask him or her honestly about any issue.

If it is a free country and we have freedom of speech, it would seem that any opinion offered in a non-disruptive way should be allowed, despite what I do personally.
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: Plane on February 19, 2007, 05:21:38 PM
As a civil servant I can't wear political activist slogans.

I can't do a lot of things , the idea is to prevent us from useing the power of our office to benefit a party or intimidate a client public.

Though I could very well get away with "support the troops" because support for the troops is actually our business and the warfighter is our customer.
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: sirs on February 19, 2007, 05:27:56 PM
....snip....

<whooo---------------------------.---------------------------ooooosh

 ::)




Did you at least hear the sound, Xo?

Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: MissusDe on February 19, 2007, 07:37:20 PM
I'm with Henny and Mikey on this one.  I do wonder - and perhaps XO can answer this - doesn't a teacher's contract contain a dress code that would specifically prohibit them from wearing clothing that reflects their personal opinions?

I would expand on Henny's statement a bit:  a teacher's job is not only to teach, but to teach students to think for themselves.  Inserting one's personal opinion, whether vocally or via a t-shirt slogan, would hinder that process.

Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: The_Professor on February 20, 2007, 12:56:57 AM
Secondary schools might have such a clause, but colleges, at least the ones I know about, do not. The local school system does indeed have a vague clause about professional attie and since they no longer have tenure, I am sure they comply, more or less. At the collegiate level, if you have Tenure, for example, you can only be fired for two acts: moral turpitude and financial extingency (no one takes your classes).
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: kimba1 on February 20, 2007, 02:02:15 PM
on the shirt issue
usually this should not even be a subject of discission
teacher in general follow a certain conduct that doesn`t allow this.
but nowadays this are VERY different
being a teacher today SUCKS
It truely SUCKS.
public or private it doesn`t matter
it is the crappiest job in the world
the teacher is now more responsible of the student than ever before.
the requirement to be a teacher is so huge.
only as a strong calling are their people willing to be teachers
Schools now are in a a bind getting teachers now .
and a even more confusing thing is their is no reward system for having good teacher
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on February 20, 2007, 02:23:06 PM
The best three things about being a teacher for me have been:
 (1) A fully vested pension 403(b) in which the university invests 8% if I invest 2%
 (2) Job security. I have never been unemployed, since 1965
 (3) As the only full-time professor in my discipline, I do not have to take more than minimal crap from anyone.

It is nice working with college students. They are usually polite and friendly, and they never throw objects at others or me as HS students sometimes do. They also smell better than HS students. It is nice teaching in a room with no squawk box to interrupt me as I teach. Once in a HS in Maryland, I installed a switch on the box so as to turn it off most of the time.

At a private college, it is effectively impossible to unionize, but our 12 year effort to do so caused the local press and the trustees to examine the intense stupidity of the blowhard president and they replaced him with a far more competent president.

I have no idea what sirs means by his whoosh remark. Most of his remarks tend to be somewhat insulting, so I assume it was in some way insulting.
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: _JS on February 20, 2007, 02:24:31 PM
Quote
I can't do a lot of things , the idea is to prevent us from useing the power of our office to benefit a party or intimidate a client public.

The idea as I understand it Plane (I'm a public servant as well) is that we be objective as possible in carrying out our duties. For me, I try to avoid a lot of the political issues that surround some of the duties I have. Objectivity is extremely important. I've had requests for information from organizations that I know aren't going to treat the subject fairly, but they get the same information that anyone else would get.

As for teachers, all I can say is that some of the best teachers I ever had - and the ones I remember most - were not the ones who simply stood in front of the class and offered plain information. I had a European History (and German) teacher in High School who was very right wing. He made no qualms about it and would have discussions in class and speak his views. Yet, without a doubt he was one of my favourite teachers of all time. At University I had about half a dozen professors that ranged from Marxist, Libertarian, Conservative Evangelical, to your basic Democrat and Republican that I'd include among my favourites. None of them were bland or kept their views hidden. They all challenged us to think and speak out, defend your positions.

Make of it what you will, but for my money's worth I don't want your cardboard cut out teacher in a suit and tie writing the material on the board and thumping the class with a difficult exam twice a semester. I'll take a teacher who teaches, regardless of political opinions - or perhaps due to it. I think all this "bias at school" talk is overblown. Kids need to learn to think for themselves.
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: sirs on February 20, 2007, 02:32:29 PM
...snip....

Kimba, you're absolutely right about what teachers have to deal with today, the pressures, placed on them, the frequent lack of support by administrators, and how often they're abused politically by the unions.  It really is a sucky job, and my compliments to those who sincerely see it as a calling to educate our young and deal with all the suckiness.

That said, Tee, Miss henny, and Miss De are dead on, that despite what pressures and suckiness has been bestowed upon them, does not give them the right to push their personal political vies to a captive student audience.  Kids go to school to learn math, english, science, etc.  They go to College to learn what occupational pursuit they need to absorb themselves in.  They don't go to be told how evil Bush is, or how fantastic Bush is.  They don't go there to be told how terrible war is.  That's not what teachers are payed to do.  If they wish to press their 1st amendment right to dissent, by all means do it on THEIR time, not the tax payers.  We tell students they're not allowed to wear pro-Christian shirts, or anti-abortion shirts, or the dreaded implied anti-gay t-shirt, despite they aren't being payed, so should have more a right to wear them than teachers.  

If teachers are so bent out of shape in that they feel they need to balance out what the ROTC is doing, where's the demands for speakers and displays in presenting that man is not responsible for global warming?  Demands for fairness in presenting the NRA's position on the 2nd amendment?  Ooo, how about a White's Only student caucus, to compliment the Blacks & Hispanic's only clubs/organizations?

Keep the teachers neutral, while in school.  They're payed to teach, not propogandize.  By all means bash Bush at will, if they're that overwrought with anger, ON THEIR OWN TIME, not while during school hours.
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: kimba1 on February 20, 2007, 03:09:19 PM
oops
I apologize
I forgot to say,being a teacher is a truely honerable job that rightly be admired.
but they are so abused by every angle
don`t forget they don`t have a real life.
quite a few give they`re home number to be reached 24/7
so their is ALOT of non-paid hours teachers are required to work.
I`m not even sure teacher don`t work in the summer time.
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on February 20, 2007, 03:20:07 PM
I`m not even sure teacher don`t work in the summer time.
===========================================

MOst teachers have the option of working in the summer. It is often paid in peanuts, and NEVER time and a half for overtime. Most often it is less than the per diem paid during the rest of the year.

At my university, I can teach two classes for $4000, four days per week. The full teaching loads during the rest of the year is a starting salary of $32000 (plus medical benefits and a vested 403b) for ten classes. $4000 for two classes is the equivalent of $20K per year, with zero benefits. This amount has been the same for the past ten years.

Being as I have a limited number of summers, I have chosen to not teach in the summer. If I were worse at investing my money, I suppose I'd need to teach in the summers, but luckily, I have a choice.
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: yellow_crane on February 20, 2007, 03:22:12 PM
I'm with Henny and Mikey on this one.  I do wonder - and perhaps XO can answer this - doesn't a teacher's contract contain a dress code that would specifically prohibit them from wearing clothing that reflects their personal opinions?

I would expand on Henny's statement a bit:  a teacher's job is not only to teach, but to teach students to think for themselves.  Inserting one's personal opinion, whether vocally or via a t-shirt slogan, would hinder that process.




Suppose you were teaching a high school journalism class, M.  

It would be pretty certain that kids who have an active interest in journalism would be somewhat aware of the intense changes that journalism is undergoing.  If they watched or read any contingent coverage of this and the influences that have brough about these changes--corporate and large governmental hatred of just or unjust criticism--they would see that the real deal is being mutated by special interests.  

Would you encourage them to investigate these issues, the issues that are real but are controlled now by strong special interests?

I can think of no other trade which permits and even requires that authority be challenged.

Would you encourage them to challenge authority (the gist of most T shirt messages), or would you encourage them to become pert and perky, start with a morning show, and become the captain at the helm of CBS News (now more appropriately named Mews, not News) by dint of dumning down all that journalism was and still is?
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: _JS on February 20, 2007, 03:25:58 PM
Quote
Kids go to school to learn math, english, science, etc.  They go to College to learn what occupational pursuit they need to absorb themselves in.  They don't go to be told how evil Bush is, or how fantastic Bush is.  They don't go there to be told how terrible war is.  That's not what teachers are payed to do.  If they wish to press their 1st amendment right to dissent, by all means do it on THEIR time, not the tax payers.  We tell students they're not allowed to wear pro-Christian shirts, or anti-abortion shirts, or the dreaded implied anti-gay t-shirt, despite they aren't being payed, so should have more a right to wear them than teachers.

Kids go to school to learn. There is more to learning than what is written in a math book.

There is more to university than an occupational pursuit to absorb onself in.

The past tense of "pay" is "paid" not "payed."

Education is more than rote memorization and basic studies Sirs. Why can't children wear pro-Christian shirts or anti-abortion shirts (in many places they can)?

I completely disagree with your compartmentalized view of education. Dull students and dull teachers won't get students anywhere. They need to be challenged. They need to learn and read from people who will challenge their safe middle class notions.
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: Amianthus on February 20, 2007, 03:39:13 PM
It is often paid in peanuts,

Raw, roasted, or boiled?
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: sirs on February 20, 2007, 03:46:16 PM
Kids go to school to learn. There is more to learning than what is written in a math book.  There is more to university than an occupational pursuit to absorb onself in.

To embrace the ideology of the teacher??  I think not.  Especially in Public tax payer schools & universites


Why can't children wear pro-Christian shirts or anti-abortion shirts (in many places they can)?

Because they're told not to by school administraters and parents threatening to sue the school for being offended.  (In most, if not nearly all places, they can't.  In many, they have uniforms)


I completely disagree with your compartmentalized view of education. Dull students and dull teachers won't get students anywhere. They need to be challenged. They need to learn and read from people who will challenge their safe middle class notions.  

I agree IF they were presented EQUAL education on the issues, EQUAL reference to the props and cons, EQUAL representation of what's being taught.  The whole theme of this thread is related to that point.  Teachers wearing Bush Sucks T-shirts, and War budgets leave every child behind is not challenging students to learn, it's propoganda pure & simple
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: _JS on February 20, 2007, 03:56:22 PM
Quote
To embrace the ideology of the teacher??  I think not.  Especially in Public tax payer schools & universites

If you can't think for yourself by High School then you're going to embrace some idiots ideology anyway. Seriously, how many people do that? By university if you are embracing ideology so easily then why are you there?

I stand by my statement:

Quote
Kids go to school to learn. There is more to learning than what is written in a math book.  There is more to university than an occupational pursuit to absorb onself in.

If American kids are as pathetic as you claim Sirs, then we might as well just indoctrinate them and create an Empire of some kind. I tend to believe they aren't quite so pathetic.

Quote
Because they're told not to by school administraters and parents threatening to sue the school for being offended.  (In most, if not nearly all places, they can't.  In many, they have uniforms)

So? Let the classroom be a place where they can discuss those views. Obviously not in math or physics, but in history or government where it is relevant.

Quote
I agree IF they were presented EQUAL education on the issues, EQUAL reference to the props and cons, EQUAL representation of what's being taught.

Who is going to measure it? The Department of Equal Teaching in Local High School Classes is going to hire a government monitor? Blech. Critical thinking and discussing views needs to be free of such idiocy.

Quote
The whole theme of this thread is related to that point.  Teachers wearing Bush Sucks T-shirts, and War budgets leave every child behind is not challenging students to learn, it's propoganda pure & simple

It can be very challenging. It raises very good questions and students could discuss budgets, deficits, warfare, the situation in Iraq, President Bush, the role of Congress, etc. The fact that it isn't challenging you to think, doesn't apply to everyone Sirs.
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: sirs on February 20, 2007, 04:52:39 PM
Look Js, I have no problem where these issues can be discussed openly and honestly in classes like Sociology or Political Science.  Hell, the teacher can be overtly biased in those realms.  I DO have a problem in nearly any other class, History included, when the teacher is pushing an overt ideological bias, at the expense of education, by denying equal referencing, speakers, projects, discussion, etc., on the opposing ideology, and instead get talked down to & ridiculed by the teacher, and likely all those other students who have become followers of the teacher's ideology.  And let's not forget the implied threats of having their grades knocked down, for failing to be properly "educated" in the ways of the teacher
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: Henny on February 20, 2007, 05:04:47 PM
Kids go to school to learn math, english, science, etc.  They go to College to learn what occupational pursuit they need to absorb themselves in.

Just to clarify, I believe what happens on the university level is entirely different. A professor can wear whatever he wants. We are now talking about students that are 18+, are free to add and drop classes and choose the professors they want.
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: Henny on February 20, 2007, 05:47:25 PM
If you can't think for yourself by High School then you're going to embrace some idiots ideology anyway. Seriously, how many people do that? By university if you are embracing ideology so easily then why are you there?

JS, I agree with you about university students, and I technically agree with you about high school students.

BUT... high school is different. We're talking about minors now. Liberal or conservative, Republican or Democrat, parents don't send their children to public school to be randomly indoctrinated by the teachers. I see this as very similar to teaching religion in public schools; whether or not the students can think for themselves, the schools have no right to override the parents.
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: The_Professor on February 20, 2007, 06:46:11 PM
Quote
Kids go to school to learn math, English, science, etc.  They go to College to learn what occupational pursuit they need to absorb themselves in.  They don't go to be told how evil Bush is, or how fantastic Bush is.  They don't go there to be told how terrible war is.  That's not what teachers are payed to do.  If they wish to press their 1st amendment right to dissent, by all means do it on THEIR time, not the tax payers.  We tell students they're not allowed to wear pro-Christian shirts, or anti-abortion shirts, or the dreaded implied anti-gay t-shirt, despite they aren't being payed, so should have more a right to wear them than teachers.

Kids go to school to learn. There is more to learning than what is written in a math book.

There is more to university than an occupational pursuit to absorb onself in.

The past tense of "pay" is "paid" not "payed."

Education is more than rote memorization and basic studies Sirs. Why can't children wear pro-Christian shirts or anti-abortion shirts (in many places they can)?

I completely disagree with your compartmentalized view of education. Dull students and dull teachers won't get students anywhere. They need to be challenged. They need to learn and read from people who will challenge their safe middle class notions.

I completely concur (amazing!). Students go to college to learn to learn; occupational preparation is an additional benefit perhaps. This whole idea of going to college to learn a skill is not appropriate. College should develop higher order critical thinking skills. If you want to learn a skill, then that is why there are "technical schools, colleges, institutes". Just be careful; few of those credits will transfer, at least here in Georgia. Why? The technical colleges do not concentrate on developing higher order critical thinking skills. They deal in the "hows", we deal in the "whys".
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: The_Professor on February 20, 2007, 06:51:24 PM
I`m not even sure teacher don`t work in the summer time.
===========================================

Most teachers have the option of working in the summer. It is often paid in peanuts, and NEVER time and a half for overtime. Most often it is less than the per diem paid during the rest of the year.

At my university, I can teach two classes for $4000, four days per week. The full teaching loads during the rest of the year is a starting salary of $32000 (plus medical benefits and a vested 403b) for ten classes. $4000 for two classes is the equivalent of $20K per year, with zero benefits. This amount has been the same for the past ten years.

Being as I have a limited number of summers, I have chosen to not teach in the summer. If I were worse at investing my money, I suppose I'd need to teach in the summers, but luckily, I have a choice.


$32,000? Ouch! The only ones at my college making that little are in the social sciences and humanities. It is probably unfair to many but the market sets the salaries and the market says there are tons of Ph.Ds in the social science and humanities and so therefore they make less.

Is this a private college where funds are less? Summer pay here is 10% of your 9-month contract per course. You are allowed to teach three per summer. Do you have to have a Ph.D there?
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: kimba1 on February 20, 2007, 07:37:13 PM
funny thing
kto 12 level we`re not that good
but at the college level we`re in a whole different level.
the U.S. does have a very huge amount of colleges compared to the rest of the planet
pretty much every country that can has students studying here.
even the countries slated to have better education than us has students here.
remember we`re one of the few countries that has open higher education
most people in the world would not consider going to college .
here in the U.S. education in thought of differently.
we tend think of it as a way to develop or learn new skills
our only road block is americans as a rule has never been a particularly academic people.
ex. the word nerd or geek has yet been used in a positive term
anyone who studies hard in school rarely gets the dates
we even got a TV show that points that out
beauty and the geek
they had to dangle big bucks for these girls to notice these guys.
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: The_Professor on February 20, 2007, 07:45:56 PM
I concur, kimba1. Weird and, in a way, sad. I look at the number of young people who long to be a highly-paid sports star,etc. instead of being well-educated. Sad...very sad.

After all, how many of us would NOT want our children to have a college education? Granted, college is NOT for everyone, too. I know my wife and I are putting our five children throguh college, through hell or highwater, unless they are not inclined that way such as our youngest male and the oldest male...sigh. So, three to go!
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: kimba1 on February 20, 2007, 08:22:19 PM
sports
feh!!

Their are more doctors than pro athletes.
more lawyers than pro athletes.
education overall is a better bet than sports in a secure future
but for the talented youth who can score a athletic scholarship.
they NEED to know how to negotiate it to a full free ride at school
meaning make sure he/her is covered for school whether he/she plays or not.
blown knees are way too common.
it`s getting common today to get an athletic scholarship not dependent on performance.
but never think for once it`s a given
college sports is way more corrupt than pro sports
I got friends in texas ,the game is more important than the player`s health.



Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on February 20, 2007, 09:34:08 PM
Pro sports is not a career like doctors or lawyers. You can be a doctor or a lawyer until you are 70.
A pro athlete is nearly always finished before he is 40.
Most pro athletes don't make all that much, and are ill-equipped to spend the next 30 years or so in retirement.

Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: kimba1 on February 20, 2007, 09:44:36 PM
I`m not sure they make it to 70

despite what people think pro-athlete are not healthy people
very few have intact bodies.
look at joe montana
during the last 3 years of his career he rarely played a full game
mohamed ali ain`t exactly fully functional
Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: MissusDe on February 21, 2007, 04:15:44 AM
If I were teaching journalism, I'd emphasize the role of the reporter as a non-biased observer, recording the facts along the who, what, when, where, and how model that seems to have disappeared these days.  I would also emphasize the importance of checking sources, perhaps using the Dan Rather/CBS News incident regarding Bush's supposed draft evasion as an example.  If a student expressed a desire to become the next Woodward or Bernstein, they would learn the difference between reporting and investigative journalism.

And I would  point out how today's news stories cater to those who tend to skim headlines and the first few paragraphs, without reading an article in its entirety to learn facts which can certainly lead to a different viewpoint if they hadn't been skipped.  I liken this tactic to putting impulse items up by the cash registers at the grocery store.....you see something that catches your eye and you go for it - a tried-and-true gimmick that works quite well in this age where winning the info-dispensing race is more important than accuracy.  Unfortunately, people tend to remember what they heard or read first and believe it to be true, regardless of what comes after.


Title: Re: Should teachers be allowed to wear anti-war t-shirts?
Post by: sirs on February 21, 2007, 11:52:55 AM
ahhh, if only we had more teachers like you'd be Miss De     :-\