DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: kimba1 on January 08, 2008, 03:33:58 PM
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it`s said it`s used to deter crime.
but how does it deter if people are willing to pay big bucks to see it.
I forgot the name of one guy who got executed,but folks had a barbecue because of it.
don`t criminals usually think they never get caught so the death penalty is hardly a factor.
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but how does it deter if people are willing to pay big bucks to see it.
It may not deter someone else, but I can guarantee that once a criminal has been executed, he will commit no further crimes.
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I remember ann richards saying that and i totally agree ,but those are the caught ones
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It is not a deterrent, and while the standard reply that the executed criminal will not commit a crime is pithy - it is equally meaningless.
Then again, from a country that has a history of torture, I don't think promoting human life is a high priority.
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In a cost benefit analysis death is more expensive than a 10 year sentence.
So in that sense the death penalty is a deterrent.
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To be a real deterrent, you need to do it as they do in Saudi Arabia: a public beheading within a month of the crime.- But that's cruel.
To kill the guy as painlessly as possible, the traditional Saudi scimitar probably works, but that is unusual.
Shooting from the back at the base of he brain is effective and probably not very painful, but that is hardly sporting, and also unusual.
I think we can lock people up forever pretty effectively, so I'd prefer we do that over any sort of capital punishment.
As we do it here...12 to 20 years between the crime and the execution, it is not any sort of deterrent.
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To be a real deterrent, you need to do it as they do in Saudi Arabia: a public beheading within a month of the crime.- But that's cruel.
What's cruel about it? Because he gets the chop in public? I don't see that as cruel.
To kill the guy as painlessly as possible, the traditional Saudi scimitar probably works, but that is unusual.
Not in Saudi Arabia, but hey, we could use the guillotine if you're squeamish. Zip, thunk, bumpety bumpety bump...
Shooting from the back at the base of he brain is effective and probably not very painful, but that is hardly sporting, and also unusual.
Well, it's unusual now, but give it time to catch on...
I think we can lock people up forever pretty effectively, so I'd prefer we do that over any sort of capital punishment.
I'm sure you read the news...Seen the stories - several of them - about escapes lately?
As we do it here...12 to 20 years between the crime and the execution, it is not any sort of deterrent.
I agree. That's why I would argue for a maximum of two appeals, one state and one federal, to be completed within a year, with the sentence to be carried out within 30 days of the completion of the last appeal.
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It is not a deterrent, and while the standard reply that the executed criminal will not commit a crime is pithy - it is equally meaningless.
Then again, from a country that has a history of torture, I don't think promoting human life is a high priority.
I don't think it is meaningless.
Most of us are not ever going to kill anyone , but the people on death row are mostly high risk for repeat offence.
If someone is a killer he may kill several times a year and killing a guy like that can change the crime rate of a state.
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actually being on deathrow is no garuntee that the guy is guilty
there is a fast track system which kinda blurs serious effert to prove innocence
texas a few years ago executed a teenagers who was found innocent later on
by the confession the guy who did the crime.
but people still find him guilty because confession of a crime is good enough to execute but not good enough to clear somebody.
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It is not a deterrent, and while the standard reply that the executed criminal will not commit a crime is pithy - it is equally meaningless.
Then again, from a country that has a history of torture, I don't think promoting human life is a high priority.
I don't think it is meaningless.
Most of us are not ever going to kill anyone , but the people on death row are mostly high risk for repeat offence.
If someone is a killer he may kill several times a year and killing a guy like that can change the crime rate of a state.
There aren't many states in this union that will have a major change in their homicide rate with three or four fewer murders. Would it were true. It is nice to see that your heart is in the right place though. I was concerned about state homicide rates as well.
Besides, do you have a study that defends what you are suggesting? Are detained murderers likely to commit another murder upon release? Mind you we're not talking about committing another crime, even another violent crime, we're talking about another murder. I'm going to have to see the recitivism rates on that one to be convinced.
And what of those who have life sentences and never get back out? Are they likely to be a nuisance to the public? Or "kill several times a year?" I don't think so.
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It is not a deterrent, and while the standard reply that the executed criminal will not commit a crime is pithy - it is equally meaningless.
Then again, from a country that has a history of torture, I don't think promoting human life is a high priority.
I don't think it is meaningless.
Most of us are not ever going to kill anyone , but the people on death row are mostly high risk for repeat offence.
If someone is a killer he may kill several times a year and killing a guy like that can change the crime rate of a state.
As the wheel turns, every once in a while, completely innocent people are fried.
This more than any other argument will put executions on stay.
It boils down to this:
You (hypothetical) think a killer should be executed, no matter what.
A person is executed, and later proved innocent.
What about his life?
What about his killer (you)?
(Or do you think you should be able to just shrink into the crowd, after advocating and helping to convince the powers to execute him?)
The Christian application does not clear things up: Jesus might say to execute no one, but his Pappy said to throw them off cliffs by the bushels full, innocent sminnocent.
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There are two issues involved with the death penalty. One is the fact that it is fairly easy to get some people to confess to anything, including murder, despite their innocence. And there is also the fact that eyewitnesses are often very inaccurate. There is a skit used by some law schools where a fake murder is carried out during an assembly of future lawyers. One guy goes running down the aisle screaming, and another chases him and shoots him with a gun. Then the students are asked for as thorough a description of the action as gthey can write. Only a small percentage can pick the 'murderer' out of a line up, and many confuse the victim with the shooter.
The other issue is competence of the executioners, if the death penalty is used. The other is the incompetence of the jailers, who lose a few prisoners, even murderers, to escape.
Of course, we all wanted the guy in the Shawshank Redemption to get out, didn't we? If Maine were a capital punishment state, he wouldn't have had a chance to bust out of Shawshank.
So if we must have a death penalty, it needs to be accurate and swift, or not at all.
If we put murderers away for life, then we need better prisons and guards.
I think a guillotine would be preferable to a scimitar, but since even France has abandoned it as inhumane, it would be accused of being far too unusual. I think public beheadings are rather barbaric regardless of tactical
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the whole deal with public executions is flawed
way way too many people want to see it and the wrong people are watching it.
it`s just entertainment .
it`s makes enjoying to see somebody die acceptable.
that`s all it does
I have doubt this kinda behavior is harmless to a society.
if we think porn is harmful
how can we not think this isn`t
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the whole deal with public executions is flawed...it`s makes enjoying to see somebody die acceptable...I have doubt this kinda behavior is harmless to a society. if we think porn is harmful how can we not think this isn`t
I saw a coupla executions in Saudi Arabia when I was there. They didn't make me want to run right out and kill somebody any more than watching porn ever made me want to run right out and rape somebody.
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The point I was trying to make is that watching a state execution is more likely to be a DETERRENT to murder.
I doubt that the Saudis actually keep records of the murder rate, so this is simply speculation.
However, it seems to me that executing the guilty party immediately after the murder should logically be more of a deterrent than executing them 20 years after the murder they committed.
I don't think the death penalty is proper for any modern society, as it doesn't seem to be a deterrent as practiced. States that have no death penalty have lower murder rates than states that do, on average.
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The point I was trying to make...
The point I was trying to make was a response to Kimba's post, not yours.
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but were the people sad or happy to see the execution?
I not saying executions will encourage murders anymore than porn causes rape.
but to say it doesn`t have any effect is another matter.
I know a guy who liked alot porn.
lets just say he got kicked out of alot of churches
people having fun seeing executions may likely be people who don`t mix well with the general public.
p.s. how do you know you`ve seen too much porn.
when you don`t like playboy and every damn talk leads to porn.
I avoid that guy.
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but were the people sad or happy to see the execution?
It was like going to the county fair. Ever see one of those westerns where people come from miles around to see a hanging? The crowd was a bit more somber, maybe, but they did enjoy letting foreigners get up front for a close-up view.
You knew when it was over that was one criminal that was never, ever going to get a chance to commit his particular crime ever again.
As for comment that 'I doubt that the Saudis actually keep records of the murder rate', I don't see why they wouldn't, just like anyone else. They're not uneducated hicks, after all. I can tell you I read three in-country daily papers, one each from Riyadh, Jeddah and Dhahran, and murder was very rarely mentioned. I felt perfectly safe walking the streets of any of the cities there at any time, day or night. As I said before, the biggest crime I saw reported was contract workers forging their papers to stay in-country longer.
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As for comment that 'I doubt that the Saudis actually keep records of the murder rate', I don't see why they wouldn't, just like anyone else. They're not uneducated hicks, after all.
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I was thinking more along the lines of Saudi Arabia being (a) an absolute monarchy, in which the press is very likely tightly controlled, and (b) a major tourist destination, during Haji month.
Do those stories of pilgrims being trampled every year in the pilgrimage get into the Saudi press or media?
I suppose if you don't read or speak Arabic, you would not know this.
I hear stories of tramplings every year, but they never seem to have any tv footage.
I imagine that Disney would prefer that Tigger mauling tourists, or cute little girls being flung screaming off Space Mountain (if these events were to happen) not make it into the press or on the tube.
(What a YouTube that would make!)
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I was thinking more along the lines of Saudi Arabia being (a) an absolute monarchy, in which the press is very likely tightly controlled, and (b) a major tourist destination, during Haji month.
KSA is not a major tourist attraction for anyone actually; they issue very few tourist visas, if any, and the Haj is not a tourist event, it is a pilgrimage.
Do those stories of pilgrims being trampled every year in the pilgrimage get into the Saudi press or media?
I suppose if you don't read or speak Arabic, you would not know this.
Yes, they do. There are warnings before the Haj to try to prevent the tramplings, and they do get reported in the Saudi papers.
I hear stories of tramplings every year, but they never seem to have any tv footage.
That is probably because the Haj generally focuses around Mecca, a city that is normally closed to non-Muslims, including reporters. The footage I have seen if it has come from Arabic television stations.
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A pilgrimage is simply a religion-based tourist event. Saudi Arabia in general and Mecca and Medina must profit enormously from the annual Haj. I am sure that they are far less mercenary than Micky Mouse & Co., but still...
I would think that if images of hajis trampling one another are on Saudi TV, they could easily be recorded for the ABC/NBC/CBS/ CNN /Faux News. But perhaps this doesn;t happen because westerners don't give a hang about the Haj, in the same way that Greenlanders are unexcited about the NFL.
I do appreciate your comments on this. I plan to see much of the world, but I fear I am unlikely to visit Saudi Arabia.
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A pilgrimage is simply a religion-based tourist event. Saudi Arabia in general and Mecca and Medina must profit enormously from the annual Haj. I am sure that they are far less mercenary than Micky Mouse & Co., but still...
I would think that if images of hajis trampling one another are on Saudi TV, they could easily be recorded for the ABC/NBC/CBS/ CNN /Faux News. But perhaps this doesn;t happen because westerners don't give a hang about the Haj, in the same way that Greenlanders are unexcited about the NFL.
I do appreciate your comments on this. I plan to see much of the world, but I fear I am unlikely to visit Saudi Arabia.
Interesting thing about Hajj and commercialism - Mohammed kind of worked it that way. Mecca was originally a place where people came from all over the world to trade, but they were all pagans. Then came Islam, but the people who went to Hajj were (and are) still allowed to trade/sell their wares. It's a tradition (but not a religious requirement, of course) that people who go to Hajj bring back gifts for the entire family.
And no, even if Saudi Arabia began to allow tourists... go to U.A.E. LOL.
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Mecca was a site of religious pilgrimage even prior to Muhammad. In the Kaaba, there was a huge collection of graven images from all over the place. Symbolically, Muhammad removed and destroyed all but the Black Stone, that sort of symbolizes Allah in its imponderable oneness.
A clever political move, as this way, the merchants who feared people would no longer visit Mecca to se the gods, would still come in even greater numbers to do the Haj.
I have heard that the Emiris are far more jovial than the Saudis. I have met and made friends with people from both places, but this is what even they say.
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if I remember right muslims are exempt from going if it is a hardship.
In the past financial hardship just means no money
nowadays with credit cards and mortgage refinances.
are muslim now required to get into heavy debt now.
would other muslims pressure one to just charge it?
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if I remember right muslims are exempt from going if it is a hardship.
In the past financial hardship just means no money
nowadays with credit cards and mortgage refinances.
are muslim now required to get into heavy debt now.
would other muslims pressure one to just charge it?
Yes, they are exempt if it is a hardship, and I'm pretty sure that heavy debt is a hardship that should be avoided.
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the current trend to get into heavy debt. is quite popular today.
so i wonder would poorer muslim be pressured to charge it.
remember even saying your broke is frowned upon today
I get lectures about my cheapness
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I get lectures about my cheapness
Move to Minnesota. I used to be lectured about my cheapness when I lived on the east coast. I'm positively a spendthrift compared to native Minnesotans.
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sounds like paradise
the majority of my purchases are from dollar stores and target
I`m too cheap to pay for the trip to walmart.
I don`t have cable and I vaction at el cerito,because of the free room and board I get there.
the truth is I don`t buy the cheapest item,I buy the 2nd or 3rd cheapest .
the theory is it has a better chance of actually working.
tip- never buy a can opener or mouse trap at a dollor store .
your just throwing money away.
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sounds like paradise
the majority of my purchases are from dollar stores and target
I`m too cheap to pay for the trip to walmart.
I don`t have cable and I vaction at el cerito,because of the free room and board I get there.
the truth is I don`t buy the cheapest item,I buy the 2nd or 3rd cheapest .
the theory is it has a better chance of actually working.
tip- never buy a can opener or mouse trap at a dollor store .
your just throwing money away.
Islam has diffrent conventios of debt than what we are used to.
http://www.soundvision.com/Info/life/credit.asp
Abdullah ibn Hanjalah related that the Prophet said: A dirham of Riba (interest) knowingly taken by a man is a sin worse than committing Zina (fornication) 36 times (Ahmad, Daraqutni).
http://www.soundvision.com/Info/life/qandh.asp
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Credit cards and credit in general, are, of course, a form of slavery. Or better said, they can be.
There are good reasons for using them.
Airline tickets: if you pay cash and the airline goes broke before you fly somewhere or fly back, if you pay cash, you are screwed: you will have to stand in line (figuritively) for many months to be repaid. This will likely never happen, as airlines are used as cash cows by weenies like Carl Icahn (who bought TWA, diddled its employees and robbed its assets). If you use a debirt card, same thing.
If you buy something on e-bay or some mailorder merchant or have something repaired and the item is junk or never arrives or stays fixed, if you paid with a credit card, you can just sent the damned thing back and refuse to pay. I once bought a tank of gasoline (back when I bought gasoline) and it turned out to be water. I should have charged it, but instead I paid cash, and i took a long time for the convenience store to bill the supplier and the supplier to bill its insurance company.
Discovercard has a nasty habit of telling you the bill is due on the 4th, and you send payment when received, perhaps on the 20th, and then they tell you it didn't arrive until the 5th and you owe a $29.95 fee for late payment on a charge of $39, and they won't refund this. I canceled my card, and every month they would call me and ask why and didn't I want it back. I told them, but apparently my explanation that they were shameless thieves and liars did not seem reasonable to them. The cards that are offered to you in special mail deals are far more likely to suck than the ones recommended by Kiplingers or Money magazines you have to apply for. Bank One is a particularly nasty bunch.
Modern business will not function well without credit. In 1950 Egypt was more prosperous than South Korea or Taiwan. Now both Taiwan and Korea have first world economies, and Egypt is a foul slum for most of its people. This is mostly due to the fact that Egypt is a Muslim country and credit is not used.
Islam is backward in its view of credit and will remain so until it chooses to ignore the prohibition against borrowing at interest. No one has any motive to lend money to a stranger than interest. Large ventures are difficult for even large families to finance.
Shiites, who believe in modifying the rules a bit, are more likely than Sunnis, who won't, in achieving economic development.
Christianity bans the charging of interest, by the way: it is a sin to lend money at interest, called usury.
I pay off all my cards by the day due, except in the rare occasion that the service or product was defective or not received.
If you get slapped with any fee, always call the company immediately, or they will mark you as a sucker and slap you with more fees.
If they tell you they are changing the terms of the credit card, pay them off and refuse to accept the new terms if they are not tolerable for you. Cut the damned thing up and mail the pieces back with a letter.
Check your credit reports yearly with the three bureaus for free. Make sure that you have the FREE site (which won't tell you your credit score) and not the others who want to stick you for $19.95 a month for this.