DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: BT on January 22, 2013, 11:16:50 PM
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It's long but it seems pretty thorough.
http://eudaimoniabygrace.wordpress.com/2013/01/20/a-few-thoughts-on-gun-control/ (http://eudaimoniabygrace.wordpress.com/2013/01/20/a-few-thoughts-on-gun-control/)
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I read it .
Very persuasive.
Do facts matter?
Anecdotes suggest that the writers of the assault wepon ban didn't bother to learn many facts , the pertanant thing for them was service to the emotion.
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I concur with the both of you. Good reading material Bt, and good deductions, Plane
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Notice the uproar we've had about high capacity magazines, when the Bushmaster wasn't even used in the Sandy Hook murders. Now not a peep that it was simply handguns. Notice also that many of these massacres that occured (in these gun-free zones), used standard firearms that were simply reloaded over and over, meaning again that this national rant about "assault weapons" and "high capacity magazines" is indeed emotion driven.
Some of the worst legislation, or in this case, executive orders, are rushed thru founded on nothing more than emotion
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................. when the Bushmaster wasn't even used in the Sandy Hook murders.
Don't accept this as fact just yet.
It isn't important so much as a fact , as that it may be misleading.
The coroner should be able to distinguish the wepon used by examination of the wounds . Some bullets have certainly been recovered from the walls and floors.
The real importance of this question is nil. A few unarmed adults and any number of children would be very vunerable to any firearm .
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The coroner should be able to distinguish the wepon used by examination of the wounds . Some bullets have certainly been recovered from the walls and floors.
Absolutely......9MM rounds are significantly different than the rounds coming out of a Bushmaster
The real importance of this question is nil. A few unarmed adults and any number of children would be very vunerable to any firearm .
I disagree......not on the point of how deadly a firearm is in the hands of a killer, but in that the whole issue of the Bushmaster was the rallying cry by the left and hard core liberal democrats to renew the ban on pseudo "assault weapons" & "high capacity magazines". If the Bushmaster wasn't used at all, then the left loses alot of the emotional crediblity they were using in the 1st place
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Now that we know that the perp did not use a cruise missile in his massacre, we need to lift restrictions on private ownership of personal cruise missiles.
I hear that Jefferson's ghost was recently heard to express outrage at the current ban on sawed off shotguns.
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Now that we know that the perp did not use a cruise missile in his massacre, we need to lift restrictions on private ownership of personal cruise missiles.
*DEFLECTION ALERT....DEFLECTION ALERT* ::)
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I did not know that there was any restriction on personal ownership of cruse missle.
I do not know why there is any restriction on sawed off shotguns, but there is so my shotgun is full length.
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I did not know that there was any restriction on personal ownership of cruse missle.
If one were to take Xo seriously, you'd have to believe that at one time it was ok to have cruise missles, before Government implimented a ban on their personal use. :o
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I did not know that there was any restriction on personal ownership of cruse missle.
If one were to take Xo seriously, you'd have to believe that at one time it was ok to have cruise missles, before Government implimented a ban on their personal use. :o
I don't know that they are banned, are they even leagally defined?
A sawed off shotgun is forbidden , probly because Clide Barrow had one , he also had BAR's that he stole from the national guard, he did for the second admendment what Larry Flint did for the first admendment.
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As I understand it, sawed off shotguns are banned because they are easily concealed and of course quite deadly. The sawed off barrel makes them effective only at close range, so they cannot be used to shoot ducks or geese.
I am pretty sure cruise missiles are illegal.
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I am pretty sure cruise missiles are illegal.
So why bring them up?? Did you catch some GOP politician or NRA spokesperson advocating the need that we be allowed to carry them??
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Notice the uproar we've had about high capacity magazines, when the Bushmaster wasn't even used in the Sandy Hook murders.
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Actually, it was.
But on Earth, not on Planet sirs
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Actually on Planet earth, news reports indicate the pseudo assault rifle was found in the car. You have the report of the ballistics that show folks shot with the Bushmaster's rounds, that you'd care to share?
Oh, yea, and what's with the hyperbolic references to cruise missles?? Which "gun nut" thinks that restrictions for their personal use should be lifted??
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It was reported that he shot all those children with the rifle and himself with a handgun.
Your information is defective, check again.
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Actually, it was reported that the rifle was found in the car. Kinda hard to shoot anyone if its still in the car. But by all means back up your claim with some report that concludes that rifle rounds were found in the victims.
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N o, that is false.
The children were shot with a rifle. Your info is defective.
You fail, try again.
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My info is current (http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/50208495#50208495). Still waiting for you to back your claim up. Your say so is 99% defective.
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Getting back to the original point of the thread, I again want to echo Plane's comments on how a good read the original piece was. Thanks for sharing, Bt
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My info is current (http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/50208495#50208495). Still waiting for you to back your claim up. Your say so is 99% defective.
LOL.....didn't think so
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According to the State of Connecticut NBC's latest is wrong
From Plane
http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/nbc-admitted-no-%27assault-rifle%27-used-in-newtown-shooting/msg149947/#msg149947 (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/nbc-admitted-no-%27assault-rifle%27-used-in-newtown-shooting/msg149947/#msg149947)
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I guess we wait to find out what brass was found and where
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You could do that. But I have a feeling the state has already accounted for the brass.
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Then where's the official report of children killed with the use of the .223 Bushmaster vs the 9MM pistols?
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Then where's the official report of children killed with the use of the .223 Bushmaster vs the 9MM pistols?
Why would they have a report categorizing which gun killed which child?
I guess if you were that concerned you could do an open records request for each childs autopsy if one were done. or wait to see if anyone is sued over the shooting and see what records come forth. As it stands now i take the States report over a news report from NBC or subsidiaries who are known to doctor evidence like the Zimmerman Tape.
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Then where's the official report of children killed with the use of the .223 Bushmaster vs the 9MM pistols?
Why would they have a report categorizing which gun killed which child?
So we can put to bed, once and for all, if the left has any credibility in claiming a Bushmaster was responsible, for any of the murders. It either did or it didn't. If it didn't, then the hard core libs trying to push this emotionally charged need to ban similar pseudo assault rifles and their standard capacity magazines, are simply using this tragedy to push their incrimental agenda of more gun control
And no, I'm not looking for a specific child's autopsy report, merely want to know if the Bushmaster was actually used, and not simply found in the car, as other reports have referenced. The brass found is really all that's needed to confirm that. No child's death need be reopened
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So we can put to bed, once and for all, if the left has any credibility in claiming a Bushmaster was responsible, for any of the murders.
According to the State of Connecticut the Bushmaster was brought into the school.
I suspect in the worst case NBC was planting a red herring or best case their story wasn't properly vetted.
As they are part of the biased MSM i wouldn't put much faith in their version.
I wouldn't get too caught up in chasing liberal credibility on this issue, when the truth is the better weapon.
And the truth is greater gun control restrictions are not needed because of the children of sandy hook when the children in chicago are being killed at a more consistent rate in a municipality that has some of the strictest gun laws in the land. I read somewhere one mother has lost four of her children to this violence.
Sandy Hook just serves as an emotion laden opportunistic power grab.
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So we can put to bed, once and for all, if the left has any credibility in claiming a Bushmaster was responsible, for any of the murders.
According to the State of Connecticut the Bushmaster was brought into the school.
I suspect in the worst case NBC was planting a red herring or best case their story wasn't properly vetted.
That doesn't reference if the Bushmaster was used. THAT's the issue here, credibility in the claims, not that it was simply there. If there's brass, then it was obviously used. That's all I'm looking for
I wouldn't get too caught up in chasing liberal credibility on this issue, when the truth is the better weapon
What do you think I'm trying to get at?? They go hand in hand here
Sandy Hook just serves as an emotion laden opportunistic power grab.
Agreed...and determination of if the Bushmaster was used or not, goes a long way in validating that conclusion
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You are moving the goal posts. Your post 16 claims the Bushmaster was left in the car.
I have no idea if it was used. I do feel comfortable in believing he brought it into the school with him.
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Never moved once. The issue has been was the Bushmaster used, not present, but used. The left claims it was used to kill. If wasn't used, their cries for how terrible the Bushmaster is, with the need to ban them and their magaizines, reigns completely debunked
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Both your 16 and NBC's report claimed the Bushmaster was left in the car.
It is possible that Lantz brought the Bushmaster in with him, but it jammed. I don't recall any reports about that. The Aurora stories were pretty quick in pointing out the Ar-15 type rifle jammed and then the shooter switched to pistols.
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That's all nice and speculative, but not designated the truth. As you said, the truth is what we're looking for here, and if the truth demonstrates that the Bushmaster was not used, then all this MSM crying about the need to ban these killing machines with their magazines is rendered moot
Which is why you here prescious little from the MSM on this issue
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The truth is both you and NBC claimed the Bushmaster was left in the car. Nothing speculative about that.
But your truth differs from that of the State of Connecticut, which has first hand knowledge of the facts to the crime.
I am inclined to accept their truth.
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Jammed?
That would be poor advertising.
Can guns get so amart that they jam when the target is innapropriate?
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The truth is both you and NBC claimed the Bushmaster was left in the car. Nothing speculative about that.
But your truth differs from that of the State of Connecticut, which has first hand knowledge of the facts to the crime.
I am inclined to accept their truth.
A) I'm not claiming anything....I wasn't there. I'm going by what's being reported
B) left in the car, as in NOT USED.
C) the State of Conn has also reported the presence of the Bushmaster, but still waiting for confirmation on its use.
I'm inclined to determine the truth of if the Bushmaster was used or not, as THAT's the issue here, not in its mere presence. So far, it appears not. But as I said, a simple reference of what brass was found and where will clear that up in a heartbeat
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From today's, 1/27/2013, NYTs. The article is titled "Selling a New Generation on Guns".
"The shooting sports foundation, the tax-exempt trade association for the gun industry, is a driving force behind many of the newest youth initiatives. Its national headquarters is in Newtown, just a few miles from Sandy Hook Elementary School, where Adam Lanza, 20, used his mother’s Bushmaster AR-15 to kill 20 children and 6 adults last month."
"The AR-15, the civilian version of the military’s M-16 and M-4, has been aggressively marketed as a cool and powerful step up from more traditional target and hunting rifles. But its appearance in mass shootings — in addition to Newtown, the gun was also used last year in the movie theater massacre in Aurora, Colo., and the attack on firefighters in Webster, N.Y. — has prompted calls for tighter restrictions. The AR-15 is among the guns included in a proposed ban on a range of semiautomatic weapons that was introduced in the Senate last week. "
http://www.skweezer.com/s.aspx/-/www~nytimes~com/2013/01/27/us/selling-a-new-generation-on-guns~html?pagewanted=1&_r=0 (http://www.skweezer.com/s.aspx/-/www~nytimes~com/2013/01/27/us/selling-a-new-generation-on-guns~html?pagewanted=1&_r=0)
In terms of how dangerous a weapon this is it makes little deference whether it was used in the Newtown shooting or not. It is a very dangerous weapon and does not belong in the hands of civilians. I noticed Ret. Gen Stanley McChrystal said the same thing, "should be banned altogether", the other day on the Morning Joe show. McChrystal thinks likes me. Must be a very smart fella.
BSB
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So you are backing away from your 16?
Actually, it was reported that the rifle was found in the car. Kinda hard to shoot anyone if its still in the car. But by all means back up your claim with some report that concludes that rifle rounds were found in the victims.
We know something was used to shoot those kids, and since high capacity magazines are also a target for restriction i guess the pistols would be on the restricted list too.
I think it is a mistake to focus on one type of firearm over another.
I think that if the liberals want to infringe on the second they need to repeal the second.
That is the line in the sand.
And then tell them to let us know when they have the votes.
Anything else is just people talking.
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Sheriff Clarke: “Calling 911 and waiting is no longer your best option”
http://fox6now.com/2013/01/25/sheriff-clarke-calling-911-and-waiting-is-no-longer-your-best-option/ (http://fox6now.com/2013/01/25/sheriff-clarke-calling-911-and-waiting-is-no-longer-your-best-option/)
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Military conducts training exercises in Miami
http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/21009669615084/military-conducts-training-exercises-in-miami/ (http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/21009669615084/military-conducts-training-exercises-in-miami/)
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BTW, I tried to tell you guys what the best sidearm for self-defense was and put up an URL, more then once, when I saw one for sale.
This is the best assault rifle.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Ur0cDmeHZms/TzjOIBR26MI/AAAAAAAAEpM/FChRUnVOte0/s1600/FN+FAL+rifle.jpg (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Ur0cDmeHZms/TzjOIBR26MI/AAAAAAAAEpM/FChRUnVOte0/s1600/FN+FAL+rifle.jpg)
You can find them for sale.
One thing about both of the weapons I've mentioned is that you usually won't find them being used in a mass shooting. They're too much gun for that kind of person. Therefore you won't be contributing to these mass murders by keeping guns like the AR15 popular and avilable.
Use your brains. If you do you can have your cake and eat it to.
BSB
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We know something was used to shoot those kids, and since high capacity magazines are also a target for restriction i guess the pistols would be on the restricted list too.
But that's NOT the current set of talking points. It's all about the rifle, and ITS magazine. Peirs Morgan is having a caniption on every one of his shows, railing on this "killing machine". While I agree that more and more restrictions & bans are on the agenda, the current target are these semiautomatic rifles. If its determined that THE TRUTH is that the Bushmaster wasn't even used, all that emotional crud the left has been pushing on how it was the "weapon of choice for this killer" defuncts the entire Feinstein media circus the other day.
In this case, TRUTH does matter.
I think it is a mistake to focus on one type of firearm over another.
I disagree 100%, which I've already demonstrated why
I think that if the liberals want to infringe on the second they need to repeal the second.
That is the line in the sand.
Nooo, that's not their MO. It's incrimentalism. Previously it was automatic weapons, now its semiautomatic weapons, and magazines greater than 10rounds. Next it'll be anything that can handle more than 7 rounds. Eventually the hard core liberals will get their wish as the citizenry left with single shot muskets.....if that. Of course its all for safety and the children, and if it saves just 1 life....right?
Anything else is just people talking.
Yes & no. Yes, it's all talk, since the dems don't even have the votes in the senate to pass Feinstein's bill. But no, it does serve a purpose....a talking point to try and use against Republicans in the next election 2014. To try and paint them as not just all being racist & greedy, but card carrying NRA members
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The right to bear arms is a principles issue.
Arguing about gun a vs pistol b is playing their game.
Stick to principles. Make this the hill you die on.
or not
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This is about using your head. That's the problem today. People are stuck in the all or nothing mode. If you use your head you can ban the AR15 and keep the FAL, and/or M1A. Neither of those two combat rifles are going to wind up being the weapon of choice for some nut-job mass murderer. They're too much gun. They aren't readily available. They cost too much. They need to be taken care of. The ammo is expensive. They kick more then most like. And they require a brain to be used effectively.
The hill I'm going to die on is the hill where thinking people make a stand.
BSB
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The right to bear arms is a principles issue.
And that has been dealt with and reaffirmed by the Supreme Court
Arguing about gun a vs pistol b is playing their game.
No, its dealing with their current tactic AND GETTING TO THE TRUTH
Stick to principles. Make this the hill you die on.
I am. In the mean time, Not going to wait until we're down to trying to argue for the right to keep & bear single shot muskets
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Make sure as you fight that fight that the assertions you make are factual assertions.
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And based on the news reporting that was shown, I assumed I was, and intend to continue that trend
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"And based on the news reporting that was shown, I assumed I was, and intend to continue that trend"
Naaaaaaaaaaaa, you based your strutting around, calling everyone out, on the news you wanted to hear. You never double checked, thought it over, questioned it. You just reacted emotionally. In fact your whole argument is emotionally based. No one is trying to take away anyone's second amendment rights. The Supreme Court already stated you don't have a right to just any old arm you want. You already can't own lots of firearms. Banning the AR15 would make it just another gun, of many, you can't have.
Your problem sirs, or one of your problems, is that you know nothing about firearms. And you never will.
BSB
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Wow B, you couldn't be more wrong if you....were xo. Try to stay focused. Not only do I know more about firearms than you can ever imagine, the issue here was the Bushmaster, and whether it was used or not at Sandy Hook. NBC and other news snippets indicated it was found in the car, as in not used. Other reporting has it present, but not reported as used. If the truth comes out that it was never used, then all this emotional irrationality that the likes of you, xo, and Piers Morgan have been pushing, is made moot
Which is I guess why you're trying to deflect this discussion into some delflective tangent that ironically is also purely emotion driven. Imagine that
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Not going to wait until we're down to trying to argue for the right to keep & bear single shot muskets
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One can envision the headline now: "Gun Nut killed by zapping himself with his own ramrod".
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Not only don't you know anything about firearms sirs, you don't even know what thread you're in. The heading of the article in the opening post is "A Few Thoughts On Gun Control", not "Was a Bushmaster used in the Newtown Shooting?". The only deflecting done here was done by you.
BSB
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NBC and other news snippets indicated it was found in the car, as in not used.
What other sources were independently stating that the Bushmaster was in the car. And no i am not looking for sources parroting the NBC report.
With NBC's recent record of altering evidence, i don't know why you choose to accept their version, versus the official state version. Even Plane urged you to be cautious of the NBC story in another thread (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/nbc-admitted-no-%27assault-rifle%27-used-in-newtown-shooting/).
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Not only don't you know anything about firearms sirs, you don't even know what thread you're in. The heading of the article in the opening post is "A Few Thoughts On Gun Control", not "Was a Bushmaster used in the Newtown Shooting?". The only deflecting done here was done by you.
BSB
I can only offer you 1 piece of advice here, B.......focus......and not on emotion, and not on me. Threads can provide many tangents, this particular one on what confirmation do we have that the Bushmaster was even used. Not that it was there, but that the "weapon of choice for this killer" was the Bushmaster, which then prompted this whole emotional charge of needing to ban it and its magazines, among many other firearms. I'd suggest you try to focus your emotion on actual facts and reality.
or not
Sirs
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And to answer Bt's question, it was merely googled websites presented (not blogs, not townhall, not some person's personal online diary), when trying to find out if the Bushmaster was actually used.
And the official state version doesn't indicate if the Bushmaster was used, merely present, which is why I answered Plane (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/nightime-reading/msg150026/#msg150026) in this thread, regarding precisely that ::)
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http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/15/15932666-conn-school-massacre-victims-all-shot-multiple-times-chief-medical-officer-says?lite (http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/15/15932666-conn-school-massacre-victims-all-shot-multiple-times-chief-medical-officer-says?lite)
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Thanks for the update. That helps a little
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When NBC refutes their own story i would think it helps a lot, but 2eachtheirown.
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Indeed
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Now that we're through with the BS about it not having been a Bushmaster we can get on with the subject.
The AR15 based platform is a bad type of weapon and should be banned. Anyone who knows the weapon, knows it's histoy, knows why it was built the way it was, knows it should not be sold to the public. Now, there are plenty of other, better in fact, combat style, self-defense capable, long guns that will remain available to the public. They are not however attractive to the type of personality that goes on these killing rampages.
Use your brains people that's what it's there for.
BSB
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Now subtracting emotion from the left's arguement on the issue, the AR 15 is no different than any other semiautomatic weapon, be it rifles or pistols. Looks mean & military, but it functions just like any semiautomatic weapon.....1 pull 1 bullet, that's it. NOT a military assault rifle, as that requires the option of automatic, which has been banned for civilian use for decades now.
The ease of reloading and decreased recoil make it a perfect DEFENSIVE weapon, especially for women and short statured folks. Not to mention that these rifles are NOT the choice or most murderers, as that'd be semiautomatic handguns, which can fire JUST as fast, and reload JUST as easily.
Being an American, I'll leave it to the individual and freedom of choice to determine for themselves if they want one or deem to need one. But don't be surprised if leftists masquerading as folks who simply "just know better", erroneously claim they know better what you need, and more to the point, don't need.
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NBC and other news snippets indicated it was found in the car, as in not used.
What other sources were independently stating that the Bushmaster was in the car. And no i am not looking for sources parroting the NBC report.
With NBC's recent record of altering evidence, i don't know why you choose to accept their version, versus the official state version. Even Plane urged you to be cautious of the NBC story in another thread (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/nbc-admitted-no-%27assault-rifle%27-used-in-newtown-shooting/).
"even"Plane?
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Now, there are plenty of other, better in fact, combat style, self-defense capable, long guns that will remain available to the public. They are not however attractive to the type of personality that goes on these killing rampages.
BSB
That is interesting.
What is the most important diffrence?
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even"Plane?
Yep even Plane
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"What is the most important difference?"
Look it up. Figure it out. Learn something. Further, I mentioned about 5. Further still, look up the creation of the M16 then look up the creation of the M14 or FAL. Compare what they were built to do and what different skills, or lack there of, of the soldiers carring them were taken into consideration. See what kind of enemy was taken into consideration. See how much 250 rounds of the different kinds of ammo needed weighs and what the projected battlefield looked like. Find a Special Operations weapons expert on line and see what he says about each weapon. See what was being replaced by the newer weapon. See what Delta, or Seal Team 6 members like and why. Shoot each weapon. Carry each one for a week in the woods. I've carried M16 platform weapons for months, day and night. I've also carried an M14 for months, day and night.
You do that then we can talk. There is a reason Gen McChystral and I come to the same conclusion. We know what we're talking about. The AR15 platform weapons should be banned from civilian use.
BSB
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claim they know better what you need, and more to the point, don't need.
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If you have never been threatened by someone else with a gun or some other dangerous weapon, and shot them of driven them away with your gun, then it is clear that you have not needed a gun so far. Remember that just HAVING a gun does not save you: you mist have it ready and I imagine loaded.
I know that the odds that I would both have a gun and have it ready to defend myself when I was unexpectedly threatened is about the same as the odds that I would hit the jackpot in the state lottery. The odds are astronomical, and I hear some moron shooting off a gun in my neighborhood about once a week. So I don't own a gun and I don't buy lottery tickets.
If you don't hear gunfire that often, then you need a gun even less.
I can also say that it is a waste of money to buy lottery tickets. However, if someone buys a lottery ticket, there is no probability that 20 years later someone will steal that lottery ticket and kill someone with it.
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You do that then we can talk. There is a reason Gen McChystral and I come to the same conclusion. We know what we're talking about. The AR15 platform weapons should be banned from civilian use.
BSB
Good thing its not, and won't be. Thank God for rationally minded Constitutional driven politicians. Still just enough of them, Democrats included, from keeping the liberal tidal wave from killing too many.
Sirs
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claim they know better what you need, and more to the point, don't need.
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Remember that just HAVING a gun does not save you: you mist have it ready and I imagine loaded.
Yea, and for most responsible gun owners, it IS, and READY to use, especially if you've got a CCW permit
You do what you want, and let the rest of us responsible legal folk do what we want.....such as exercise our 2nd amendment rights, as affirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court, if we so chose to >:(
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"What is the most important difference?"
Look it up. Figure it out. Learn something. Further, I mentioned about 5. Further still, look up the creation of the M16 then look up the creation of the M14 or FAL. Compare what they were built to do and what different skills, or lack there of, of the soldiers carring them were taken into consideration. See what kind of enemy was taken into consideration. See how much 250 rounds of the different kinds of ammo needed weighs and what the projected battlefield looked like. Find a Special Operations weapons expert on line and see what he says about each weapon. See what was being replaced by the newer weapon. See what Delta, or Seal Team 6 members like and why. Shoot each weapon. Carry each one for a week in the woods. I've carried M16 platform weapons for months, day and night. I've also carried an M14 for months, day and night.
You do that then we can talk. There is a reason Gen McChystral and I come to the same conclusion. We know what we're talking about. The AR15 platform weapons should be banned from civilian use.
BSB
I do not think your argument works.
I have some familiarity with the M-14 that I used in the Navy , and I wouldn't mind having an M-1, but I will not likely have enough oppurtunity to gain the kind of experience an Army career gave you with rifles of all types.
My personal favoriate right now is a Marlin 30-30 that I have owned for years and am interested in Winchester lever actions for when I can afford an upgrade, perhaps 45-70.
What you can relay to me verbally I might understand and might not , but I think the attempt worthwile.
If your information becomes so tecnical that I fail to understand , I will then have good direction for search, I can't study randomly and depend on learning what you think is important beforehand.