DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Christians4LessGvt on June 28, 2010, 04:02:20 PM
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(http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c60bf53ef0120a561848a970b-500wi)
Dear Imam Rauf and Daisy Khan,
The remains of another seventy-two people were discovered on Friday not far from where you plan to build a thirteen-story Islamic center and mosque. Here we are, close to ten years after the largest jihadist attack ever to take place on American soil, and bodies, corpses, are still being recovered. Who knows how many body parts were found in the Burlington Coat Factory building when the landing gear crashed through all five floors? Thousands were never recovered. Their cemetery, their burial ground, is the area in and around Ground Zero. not far from where you plan to build a thirteen-story Islamic center and mosque. Here we are, close to ten years after the largest jihadist attack ever to take place on American soil, and bodies, corpses, are still being recovered. Who knows how many body parts were found in the Burlington Coat Factory building when the landing gear crashed through all five floors? Thousands were never recovered. Their cemetery, their burial ground, is the area in and around Ground Zero.
Of course, as one of the leaders of the opposition to the painful and strangely thoughtless "Cordoba Initiative," my group SIOA will be pursuing legal avenues to stop or at least dramatically slow down the building of this mosque on the site that many consider to be a war memorial, while also staging mega-protests and sit-ins if and when construction begins, etc. But must it come to that?
You and I are New Yorkers. We are Americans, first. You, too, felt the devastating pain and anguish when the military arm of Islam (al qaeda) unleashed its attack on America on September 11th. The gaping hole at Ground Zero is a constant reminder of that terrible war.
Must we go legal? Must we stage more rallies with tens of thousands of Americans opposing the mosque? Can we not, as human beings, and in the interest of building bridges, mutual understanding and respect, implore you to reconsider your plans? I am sure your motivation to build bridges was a good one. But as you can see, it has had the opposite effect. The public outcry of millions of Americans make plain the wound that has been reopened and the terrible pain this is causing for families, for patriots, for Muslims of conscience. It is unbearable. This surely was not your intent.
Interfaith dialogue is a two-way street. I believe we should all be sensitive to each other. I don?t see Muslims separately or apart, I see Americans. Period. Americans who love this country, and don?t share the idea of "pure Islam" or "original Islam" that is found in Islamic countries. In many of the emails I receive, many Muslims understand the pain "Cordoba" inflicts not just the idea but the name itself (evoking Islamic conquest over the West).
I call upon your conscience, your goodness, your love of America, to move you to reconsider. More rallies will be staged, tens of thousands will show. People might get hurt in a sit-in trying to stop the ground breaking of a mosque looking down on Ground Zero. Why? In the interest of building bridges?
Can we talk about this? Can we discuss this? Can the building have a church and a synagogue as well as a mosque? Or perhaps no mosque at all ? much the way community centers like the 92nd Street Y or the YWCA, to which you have compared your plan, don?t have churches or synagogues.
As a man of the clergy, you must understand the pain this is causing for the victims who mourn their dead, for Americans who mourn their country?s losses ??.. You can not have wanted to create such sorrow.
What can we do to get you to withdraw this plan? Should we try to raise the money to release you from this tragic mistake? How can we help you? We want to work with you and do the right thing, build bridges and show each other mutual understanding and mutual respect. As a religious man, you would never mean to cause such overwhelming sadness and grief.
Imam Rauf, please withdraw this plan and show the world real understanding and kindness and empathy.
Sincerely yours,
Pamela Geller
Please sign this appeal to the Imam Rauf and Daisy Khan. Let them hear us.
http://www.petitiononline.com/SIOAplea/petition.html (http://www.petitiononline.com/SIOAplea/petition.html)
(http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c60bf53ef0133f03efe02970b-800wi)
Thousands rallied June 6 at the site of the World Trade Center in New York City.
(http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0073.jpg)
9/11 families were joined by immigrants from India, Russia, Egypt, Israel, Africa, Iran
and Europe to show opposition to the construction of a mega-mosque at Ground Zero.
Others flew in from overseas to speak or just to share their particular ethnic communities?
experiences at the hands of Muslims.
(http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0212.jpg)
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no
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ok....."no"
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While I am opposed to the concept of blaming the faith for the actions of terrorists, and persecution of any religion, this does seem like an incredibly poor idea. I can't in good conscience say no, but at the same time, I think they should reconsider.
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This has got to be one of the most tone deaf ideas ever contrived.
It will be very repellent and cause problems .
Perhaps one should consider that one has rights to do things that are counterproductive , in other words - a bad idea.
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This has got to be one of the most tone deaf ideas ever contrived.
It will be very repellent and cause problems .
Perhaps one should consider that one has rights to do things that are counterproductive , in other words - a bad idea.
Tone deaf is a very interesting way to word that. I am not sure, Plane, that this is a case of confusion. The continued insensitivity seems planned and the idea seems deliberately in-your-face. But if it isn't - if these people really think this is a manner of building bridges - then you are quite correct. They clearly don't get it. I agree (not too surprisingly) with Stray Pup that the ideals of our nation compell me to side with the rights of the faith to express itself freely, even if it is extremely distasteful. But I would like to have a pork processing plant located right next door and see how quickly they protest our "insensitivity." Maybe Hebrew National Hot Dogs can open on the other side.
There is a part of me that views the building of a mosque on ground zero as a triumph of freedom. After all, in most countries the idea would be quickly rejected by the government. Allowing these people to do this shows the freedom of expression and the tolerance America is well known for. But it will not build bridges. It will just be a magnet for controversy and violence. I think that is the intent.
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Why should there be any religious building on the Ground Zero site if there wasn't any there in the first place?
Keep religion out of public life, but if one gets in, let 'em all in, otherwise you are violating the anti-establishment clause.
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Isn't the property the mosque is built on private? Is there a ban on other religious institutions on private property?
I suppose parking might be an issue, but I fail to see how a mosque could be deemed illegal on religious grounds.
I don't see where this could be subject to a vote. The people killed in 9-11 were not killed by a mosque.
I suppose that constant demonstrations outside the mosque might also be legal and quite annoying.
I would agree that there are certainly better places to put a mosque: it's not a Muslim neighborhood.It probably isn't that good a place for a church, a synagogue or a sweatlodge, either.
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I understand that the property - - or at least the WTC - - was on land owned by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey but subject to a 100-year lease or something like that, to erect the Twin Towers, obviously private property. I'm not sure if Silverberg still holds that lease but in any event, the rebuilding of 9-11 with symbolic structures like a mosque or anything else is bound to turn into some kind of national shrine.
I'll put it this way - - if there is any governmental participation in the rebuilding of the site, then there should be no religious element involved at all.
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As I understand it, they are not proposing to build a mosque on the Ground Zero/ WTC site, just a site that is near it.
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The truth about the 'mosque': The leader of proposed Muslim center near Ground Zero defends his plan
By Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/05/26/2010-05-26_the_truth_about_the_mosque_the_leader_of_proposed_muslim_center_near_ground_zero.html#ixzz0sG2bkDZV (http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/05/26/2010-05-26_the_truth_about_the_mosque_the_leader_of_proposed_muslim_center_near_ground_zero.html#ixzz0sG2bkDZV)
After our proposal to build a community and cultural center two blocks from the World Trade Center site, I was pleased and gratified by the outpouring of support from city officials and a wide range of people who understand our mission.
My colleagues and I are the anti-terrorists. We are the people who want to embolden the vast majority of Muslims who hate terrorism to stand up to the radical rhetoric. Our purpose is to interweave America's Muslim population into the mainstream society.
People who are stakeholders in society, who believe they are welcomed as equal partners, do not want to destroy it. They want to build it. And there's no better demonstration of our desire to build than the construction of this center. It will help revive lower Manhattan.
The project has been mischaracterized, so I want to explain clearly what it would be. Our planned 13-story community center is intended for Park Place between Church St. and West Broadway. It is not a mosque, although it will include a space for Muslim prayer services. It will have a swimming pool, basketball court, meeting rooms, a 500-seat auditorium, banquet facilities and many other things a community needs to be healthy. The center will offer theatrical programming, art exhibitions and cooking classes. These are amenities missing now from this part of the city.
And, yes, the center will have a public memorial to the victims of 9/11 as well as a meditation room where all will be welcome for quiet reflection. The center will support soul and body.
The center will be open to all regardless of religion. Like a YMCA, the 92nd St. Y or the Jewish Community Center uptown, it will admit everyone. It will be a center for all New Yorkers.
What grieves me most is the false reporting that leads some families of 9/11 victims to think this project somehow is designed by Muslims to gloat over the attack.
That could not be further from the truth.
My heart goes out to all of the victims of 9/11. They are all heroes. But I urge you to include in your sympathy the family of Mohammad Salman Hamdani. Born in Pakistan, his parents brought him to New York as a small child. He wanted nothing more than to be an American, and he was.
A high school football player in Bayside, Queens, he graduated from Queens College. When he could not get into an American medical school, he became a part-time ambulance driver. He disappeared on 9/11; his body was found months later in the wreckage of the north tower. This 23-year-old Muslim died trying to save his fellow New Yorkers.
Religion did not separate the victims on that terrible day. Whether Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists or any other faith, all of these people made up the fabric of New York. They all died together.
Freedom of religion is something we hold dear. It is the core of what America is all about, and it is what people worldwide respect about our country. The Koran itself says compulsion in religion is wrong.
American Muslims want to be both good Americans and good Muslims. They can be the best assets the United States has in combatting radicalism.
They know that many American values - freedom of religion, human dignity and opportunity for prosperity - are also Muslim values.
We believe that people of good faith can use the common core of their religions to find solutions to problems that will let them live together.
I have been the imam at a mosque in Tribeca for 27 years. I am as much a part of this community as anyone else. Our mosque is as much a part of the neighborhood as any church, synagogue or surrounding business. My work is to make sure mosques are not recruiting grounds for radicals.
To do that, Muslims must feel they are welcome in New York. Alienated people are open to cynicism and radicalism. Any group that believes it is under attack will breed rebellion. The proposed center is an attempt to prevent the next 9/11.
What could be a better use for the citizens in lower Manhattan? What could be a better monument to the victims of that tragic day?
Abdul Rauf is chairman of the Cordoba Initiative, an independent, nonpartisan and multinational project that seeks to use religion to improve Muslim-West relations. He is the author of "What's Right With Islam Is What's Right With America."
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/05/26/2010-05-26_the_truth_about_the_mosque_the_leader_of_proposed_muslim_center_near_ground_zero.html#ixzz0sG2H1k4B (http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/05/26/2010-05-26_the_truth_about_the_mosque_the_leader_of_proposed_muslim_center_near_ground_zero.html#ixzz0sG2H1k4B)
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If it's not on public lands and it's not put up with government participation, I don't see anything wrong with it. I think all New Yorkers have a stake in their city and ought to be able to build for the needs of the greater or the smaller society to which they belong.
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hey maybe if IslamoNazis bring down the Eiffel Tower in Paris the
Muslims can buy the land near-by and put up a Muslim Center there too!
Attempted attack on Eiffel Tower (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brHmRI_PkQM&feature=player_embedded#ws)
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Fanatical hatred of Muslims is just as demented as fanatical Muslims hating everyone else.
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A Shrine to Sharia
By Frank Gaffney
The supremacist program authoritative Islam calls Shariah is big on symbols. Arguably, none is more effective than its practice of building mosques on its conquests' most sacred sites.
In Jerusalem, triumphant Muslims built the Al-Aqsa mosque on top of the Jews' revered Temple Mount. They transformed what had been for a thousand years the largest cathedral in Christendom, Constantinople's magnificent St. Sophia basilica, into a sprawling mosque complex. And the Moorish Ummayad dynasty in Spain, made the city of Cordoba its capital, and installed an immense mosque on the site of an ancient Christian church there.
Now, an imam in New York, who has suddenly come into $100 million from undisclosed sources, wants to build a 13-story Islamic Cultural Center adjacent to the site of Shariah's greatest triumph to date in America: Ground Zero, the place where the World Trade Center's twin towers proudly stood until they were destroyed by Shariah-adherent jihadists on September 11, 2001. It is not a coincidence that the imam, Feisal Abdul Rauf, has called his project "the Cordoba House."
Such a mosque on 9/11's hallowed ground would not only constitute a durable, symbolic taunt by our enemies about their bloody victory. In accordance with Shariah, once ground has been taken for Islam, it can never revert to the non-Muslim Dar al-Harb, literally the House of War.
In other words, the Ground Zero mosque is designed to be a permanent, in-our-face beachhead for Shariah, a platform for inspiring the triumphalist ambitions of the faithful and eroding resistence to their demands for separate and (for the moment, at least) equal treatment in America.
So why, one might ask, have Mayor Michael Bloomberg, various other elected officials and clergy and community leaders expressed support for the Cordoba House?
In part, it is a function of local considerations: Who wouldn't welcome the prospect of an infusion of $100 million into the still-suffering economy of lower Manhattan? What is more, if the mosque serves as a magnet for new Muslim residents, depressed housing prices could rebound.
The larger problem is that too few of our leaders understand the nature of Shariah and its implications. Even when an imam like Rauf explicitly says he favors bringing Shariah to America, officials at every level of government seem untroubled by the fact that such an agenda necessarily is anti-constitutional and incompatible with our freedoms.
To be sure, Imam Rauf is a skilled practitioner of the Shariah tradition of taqqiya deception for the faith. It turns out, he was to the manner born: As ace researcher Alyssa Lappen has documented, Rauf has family and other longstanding ties to the Muslim Brotherhood.
So, in a page taken straight out of the Brotherhood taqqiya playbook, the imam and his wife and collaborator on the Cordoba House project, Daisy Khan, have been much in evidence of late, professing their commitment to interfaith dialogue and the dedication of their new facility to serving the non-Muslim as well as Muslim communities.
As it happens, similar assurances about mosque complexes built elsewhere by other Shariah adherents have amounted to the old "bait-and-switch" scam. A group called Americans for Peace and Tolerance (APT) has monitored, for example, the Islamic Society of Boston's Saudi-funded, city-enabled mega-mosque in Roxbury, Massachusetts. Despite professions of tolerance, the mosque has ties to Hamas and other terrorists. According to APT, the mosque's imam, "Abdullah Faarooq, has told his followers to ?pick up the gun and the sword' and supported local terror suspects Aafia Siddiqui and Tarek Mehanna
In the United Kingdom, the North London Central Mosque (a.k.a. the Finsbury Park Mosque) has been embraced by the British government and is considered an archetype for its effort to counter radicalization by working with the Muslim Brotherhood's "non-violent" Islamists. Yet, this mosque hosted one of America's most wanted terrorists: Anwar al-Alwaki. According to National Public Radio, among those who attended his sermons there was the Nigerian panty-bomber, Umar Farouk Abulmutallab.
We have reason to fear that the United States government is poised to follow Britain's disastrous course - further compounding the muddle-headed thinking among leaders across the country about Shariah and the threat it poses. John Brennan, President Obama's Homeland Security and Counterterrorism Advisor has repeatedly signaled that he wants to reach out to "moderate" jihadists of the Taliban and Hezbollah. President Obama has said he intends to provide more than $400 million for Hamas-run Gaza.
Then, Brennan gave an interview in the Washington Times last week in which he displayed anew his profound misunderstanding of the enemy and its threat doctrine. As the Times' Eli Lake reported: "Mr. Brennan said that he opposed granting any legitimacy to what he called al Qaeda's ?twisted' interpretation of Islam. ?Clearly, bin Laden and al Qaeda believe they are on this very holy agenda and this jihad. However in my view, what we cannot do is to allow them to think, and the rest of the world to think, for the future terrorists of the world to believe al Qaeda is a legitimate representation of jihad and Islam.'"
Such denials of the centrality of violent jihad to authoritative Islam - and the obligation to engage in more stealthy forms of jihad to the same end, the global triumph of Islam, where violence is not practicable - is a formula for disaster. Unchallenged, it will produce a toxic shine at Ground Zero to the doctrine that animates al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood alike, Shariah
http://townhall.com/columnists/FrankGaffney/2010/06/28/a_shrine_to_sharia/page/2 (http://townhall.com/columnists/FrankGaffney/2010/06/28/a_shrine_to_sharia/page/2)
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Fanatical hatred of Muslims is just as demented as fanatical Muslims hating everyone else.
Do you really see equivelency going on?
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My colleagues and I are the anti-terrorists. We are the people who want to embolden the vast majority of Muslims who hate terrorism to stand up to the radical rhetoric. Our purpose is to interweave America's Muslim population into the mainstream society.
Well spoken fellow.
Is he willing to call the Al Quieda evil?
Is he willing to condenm the attack itself as an evil act by evil people?
Especially where the Umma can hear him?
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<<Is he willing to call the Al Quieda evil?>>
Why, are there such a lot of Americans ready to acknowledge that the American government is evil?
<<Is he willing to condenm the attack itself as an evil act by evil people?>>
It would certainly be fair to do so if American religious leaders were willing to condemn the invasion and occupation of Iraq as an evil act by evil people.
<<Especially where the Umma can hear him?>>
And, you know, condemn Bush and the military as evil on prime-time TV where the American people can actually hear the condemnation.
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<<Is he willing to call the Al Quieda evil?>>
Why, are there such a lot of Americans ready to acknowledge that the American government is evil?
<<Is he willing to condenm the attack itself as an evil act by evil people?>>
It would certainly be fair to do so if American religious leaders were willing to condemn the invasion and occupation of Iraq as an evil act by evil people.
<<Especially where the Umma can hear him?>>
And, you know, condemn Bush and the military as evil on prime-time TV where the American people can actually hear the condemnation.
Hey !
If I do , may I build a Starbucks in the Kaaba square?
http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2010/06/skyscrapers (http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2010/06/skyscrapers)
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Seems as if quite often when I think something up someone elese is thinking something simular.
http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.6582/pub_detail.asp (http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.6582/pub_detail.asp)
One thing we must fight back on is the absurd notion that rejecting an Islamic center cum mosque on that particular site makes us intolerant. We permit thousands of mosques in our country and hundreds just in the New York area. Contrast that with Mecca and Medina, where – forget about churches or synagogues – non-Muslims are not permitted to enter. And that's not some purported al-Qaeda "perversion" of Islam; that's mainstream Islam. The Saudis are upholding intolerant Koranic scripture.
I suggest we tell the agitators behind this Ground Zero mosque project to get back to us when Muslims permit a $100 million synagogue next to the Kaaba.
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<<If I do , may I build a Starbucks in the Kaaba square?>>
Only if Starbucks will let you serve Pride of Arabia.
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<<If I do , may I build a Starbucks in the Kaaba square?>>
Only if Starbucks will let you serve Pride of Arabia.
I don't think you are fiamilliar with the limits on infidels in Mecca.
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US law allows people to buy property and develop it as they wish. That is because we are superior to Saudi Arabia in pretty much every way. There is no reason to compete with them in assholery.
I do not see this mosque as much of a threat. I have a rather dim view of Islam, but most Muslims are not fanatics, and like most religions, I expect it will become less strident as the years go by.
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Fanatical hatred of Muslims is just as demented as fanatical Muslims hating everyone else.
True, but we can't ignore that there is a rather significant mitigating circumstance in this case.
Even though this incident was not the fault of the religion itself, it would be just as insensitive as the Mormons building a church where the Mountain Meadows Massacre happened, the Japanese building a Shinto shrine in Pearl Harbor and the Germans building a beer hall in the ruins of Auschwitz.
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Fanatical hatred of Muslims is just as demented as fanatical Muslims hating everyone else.
True, but we can't ignore that there is a rather significant mitigating circumstance in this case.
Even though this incident was not the fault of the religion itself, it would be just as insensitive as the Mormons building a church where the Mountain Meadows Massacre happened, the Japanese building a Shinto shrine in Pearl Harbor and the Germans building a beer hall in the ruins of Auschwitz.
This is scary, son. I was going to post just about the same thing in my original but changed my mind and went with the pork processing theme instead. (Senator Byrd just died so "pork" was on my mind, I guess.) But I was going to suggest a Japanese Cultural center at the Arizona memorial or a Nazi Awareness center at Dachau. The Mountain Meadows reference didn't occur to me but it was valid as well. Still, very spooky. I think you have your mother's ESP.
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Fanatical hatred of Muslims is just as demented as fanatical Muslims hating everyone else.
True, but we can't ignore that there is a rather significant mitigating circumstance in this case.
Even though this incident was not the fault of the religion itself, it would be just as insensitive as the Mormons building a church where the Mountain Meadows Massacre happened, the Japanese building a Shinto shrine in Pearl Harbor and the Germans building a beer hall in the ruins of Auschwitz.
BINGO
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Hopefully the zoning commission can come up with a reason to deny other than those brought up here.
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Even though this incident was not the fault of the religion itself, it would be just as insensitive as the Mormons building a church where the Mountain Meadows Massacre happened, the Japanese building a Shinto shrine in Pearl Harbor and the Germans building a beer hall in the ruins of Auschwitz.
All of Pearl Harbor belongs to the military, so that won't happen. But if it were in private hands, then it could be done.
Auschwitz belongs to the Polish government, so that also will not happen.
The Mormons want the Mountain Meadows Massacre to go away. Before Xerox machines existed, they would pay thousands for books published on this so they could destroy them.
I really do not see how they can prevent this legally. And it isnlt at "Ground Zero", it is just nearby. I am sure it will be totally possible for anyone to ignore it.
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I really do not see how they can prevent this legally. And it isn't at "Ground Zero", it is just nearby. I am sure it will be totally possible for anyone to ignore it.
Do you honestly believe that? I mean sure, there is little than can be done to legally prevent this, but do you think it will matter to the people who lost friends and family in that tragedy. Unfortunate though their viewpoint is, they will see this as base treachery and we can't rule out a few of them doing something drastic.
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You have to consider the source, Pup :-\
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There are all sorts of reprehensible groups that have public buildings: scientologists, loan sharking payroll loan agencies, thieving bogus fortune tellers, larcenous casinos and car tow lots, not to mention Chase, the Bank of America, JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley and the rest of them. I do not see how the possibility that someone might go ape and attack this mosque is a justification for prohibiting it. The Saudi government sees its main mission to be the care and protection of Islam. The US government sees one of its main mission (if not THE main mission) to be the protection of private property. Religion is also something our government has always protected, with very few exceptions through the years.
Personally, I could care less whether there is a mosque in near Ground Zero or anywhere in Manhattan.I just do not see how it could be prevented by any legal means. Islam is not my idea of an ideal religion because of its intolerance and its fanaticism. But there is no law against either in this country, and I do not see how any law against either could be constitutional. I think that it would be better for all concerned if they would move this project uptown twenty blocks or so, or across the water in Queens or Brooklyn. With the subway system of NYC, it hardly is important that it be where they are planning to put it. So about all that those who oppose it could do is what they are doing: to beseech those who want the mosque there to move it.
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Unfortunate though their viewpoint is, they will see this as base treachery and we can't rule out a few of them doing something drastic.
And they won't be doing that in my name, nor should their actions reflect on me. And that seems to be Rauf's point.