DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Brassmask on November 30, 2006, 12:56:49 PM
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http://imdb.com/title/tt0058576/ (http://imdb.com/title/tt0058576/)
Where has this movie been all my paranoid life?
Good gravy, I can't wait to read the book.
The whole movie is worth it to see President Lyman confront General Scott. Here you've got the right vs the left in the simplest of terms. These guys aren't talking about Scott's desire to run the country or protect America. They're talking about Democracy around the world and the best way to help it along. Lyman on the left advocating patience and process and leading by example within the system. Scott on the right advocating enforcing it now with all the might of the American Military behind him ironically destroying the ideal that he thinks is so dear.
This film is so timely and prescient. We are literally living through a reality of what Scott proposes in Seven Days In May. And it clearly isn't working.
As an aside, this is one of Kennedy's favorite books. He gave Frankenheimer and his crew wide open access to the White House in order to film it because he loved the book so much. I want to know what Frankenheimer knows. He does a movie about a coup detat in America and then one happens. He does a movie about The Manchurian Candidate and the RFK gets killed later. WTF?
Of course, I'm the paranoid type and this parapolitics stuff appeals to me a lot. When Lyman demands the Joint Chiefs of Staff resign, it reminded me of Kennedy's firing of Cabel, Bissell and Dulles. Are imitating life? Just a thought.
General James Mattoon Scott: And if you want to talk about your oath of office, I'm here to tell you face to face, President Lyman, that you violated that oath when you stripped this country of its muscles - when you deliberately played upon the fear and fatigue of the people and told them they could remove that fear by the stroke of a pen. And then when this nation rejected you, lost faith in you, and began militantly to oppose you, you violated that oath by not resigning from office and turning the country over to someone who could represent the people of the United States.
President Jordan Lyman: And that would be General James Mattoon Scott, would it? I don't know whether to laugh at that kind of megalomania, or simply cry.
General James Mattoon Scott: James Mattoon Scott, as you put it, hasn't the slightest interest in his own glorification. But he does have an abiding interest in the survival of this country.
President Jordan Lyman: Then, by God, run for office. You have such a fervent, passionate, evangelical faith in this country - why in the name of God don't you have any faith in the system of government you're so hell-bent to protect?
Great flick.
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Thanks, I'd forgotten all about this movie!
I would suggest The Crucible too. Have you read the play or seen the movie? Really great.
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Thanks, I'd forgotten all about this movie!
I would suggest The Crucible too. Have you read the play or seen the movie? Really great.
Oh Lanya, I've actually produced and directed that play. For some reason, it didn't get a huge audience in north Mississippi. Guess when they heard it was witches, it scaret 'em.
Wonderful, wonderful play.
My wife and I will sometimes say lines from it. When Benjamin is crying 'cause he fell down or something, I'll go, "Pity me, John, pity me." That version with Daniel Day Lewis and the woman that played Pat Nixon and was in THE CONTENDER (a great film where the main character, a woman is also an atheist and she is President jeff Bridges choice to be the new Vice-president, IT ROCKS) is pretty awesome.
Joan Allen. She's awesome.
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Seven Days in May - - one of my all-time paranoid faves, along with The Manchurian Candidate, Dr. Strangelove and The Bedford Incident. All of 'em in B&W. Package 'em with The Parallax View, Cutter's Way and Three Days of the Condor and you've got a Paranoia Weekend to end all weekends.
I loved the sycophantic TV commentator selling Gen. Scott's brand of fascism, who doesn't realize the game is over till the general tells him to go to hell. The dialogue was great. Could you picture any of the Presidential speeches coming out of Bush's mouth? ROTFLMFAO.
BTW, Brass, The Crucible was at the Shaw Festival in Niagara-on-the-Lake, Ontario this summer in a very powerful performance that you probably would have loved. Really strong actors, which a play like that needs.
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Brass---that play got a big audience in NM. There were some people there, I think, who had been under suspicion by Joe McCarthy.
Wonderful play.
Michael, I think I need to rent all those movies you mentioned. I love the Manchurian Candidate (the original).
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There were some people there, I think, who had been under suspicion by Joe McCarthy.
In New Mexico? For what?
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<<Michael, I think I need to rent all those movies you mentioned. >>
Lanya, you might also want to check out The Spy Who Came In From the Cold, with Richard Burton. Also B&W and very much in the same style as the other B&W's I mentioned, with a different but related theme.
<<I love the Manchurian Candidate (the original). >>
I know whatcha mean. The remake wasn't bad either, but it shouldn't have had the same name. Nowhere near the classic stature of the original. Not even close.
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There were some people there, I think, who had been under suspicion by Joe McCarthy.
In New Mexico? For what?
Being writers or actors I think, from California. I only heard about this as a kid so I'm not sure who they were.
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Being writers or actors I think, from California. I only heard about this as a kid so I'm not sure who they were.
McCarthy investigated military officers on the east coast.
Senator Joe McCarthy would not have been involved with the House Unamerican Activities Committee.
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http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:O2UBQIvdXioJ:student.ccbcmd.edu/~wbarry/saltoftheearth.doc+Victims+of+McCarthy%27s+blacklist+in+New+Mexico&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=17&client=firefox-a
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http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:O2UBQIvdXioJ:student.ccbcmd.edu/~wbarry/saltoftheearth.doc+Victims+of+McCarthy%27s+blacklist+in+New+Mexico&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=17&client=firefox-a
Did you read it? Only mention of McCarthy doing anything was:
"1951-- Sen. Joseph McCarthy, assisted by Richard Nixon and Robert F. Kennedy, announces hearings to clear out all the Communists from government agencies, giving the period its most visible and famous symbol" (emphasis mine).
Of course, I guess you skipped over the part that said "1938- The House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC), chaired by Congressman Martin Dies, is founded to 'investigate un-American activities' of both the left and the right. In one four-day period, 248 CIO organizers are named as Communists."
Incidently, Joseph McCarthy wasn't elected until 1946. Many that McCarthy accused of being spies for the Soviets were found later to have actually been spying for the Soviets. Dies, on the other hand, was conducting a witch hunt.
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Many that McCarthy accused of being spies for the Soviets were found later to have actually been spying for the Soviets.
That is a complete falsehood. The vast majority of those "listed" by McCarthy from his major speeches where he used lists (usually adapted lists from various sources) there were very, very few that were confirmed spies for the Soviet Union. There were many who were leftists and some who were Communist Party members or who had been members or sympathizers with the Communist Party USA. But by no means is your statement even close to reality that many were actual spies for the Soviet Union.
Of note on McCarthy's lists were Drew Pearson, Dean Acheson, and George Marshall.
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Of note on McCarthy's lists were Drew Pearson, Dean Acheson, and George Marshall.
The first two were suspected by the House Un-American Activities Committee, and the final was never investigated by the Senate, AFAIK. McCarthy did write a book about Marshall, in which he basically said he didn't like the guy, but I don't think he ever investigated him. Again, I point out that Senator Joseph McCarthy was not involved with the House committee. Being a Senator, he wouldn't be involved in any committees in the House. And Senator McCarthy refused to "publish lists." Again, you're confusing the activities of Congressman Dies with Senator McCarthy.
That is a complete falsehood. The vast majority of those "listed" by McCarthy from his major speeches where he used lists (usually adapted lists from various sources) there were very, very few that were confirmed spies for the Soviet Union. There were many who were leftists and some who were Communist Party members or who had been members or sympathizers with the Communist Party USA. But by no means is your statement even close to reality that many were actual spies for the Soviet Union.
As I pointed out already, McCarthy only investigated the military and government agencies. He claimed ~200 people as spies, and later narrowed his list to 57. His "list" only contained case numbers, not actual names - the case numbers were supplied by the State Dept, which held the actual names and didn't release them to McCarthy. Some of those who were apprently correctly identified (based mostly on Verona files) are:
- Solomon Adler
- Cedric Belfrage
- T.A. Bisson
- Lauchlin Currie
- Gustavo Duran
- Theodore Geiger
- Haldore Hanson
- Mary Jane Keeney
- Owen Lattimore
- Leonard Mins
- Annie Lee Moss
- Franz Leopold Neumann
- Edward Posniak
- William Remington
- John Carter Vincent
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No, I'm not confusing HUAC with Senator McCarthy. He did not have "lists" as in written explicitly on paper, but he did very much have them and made speeches as well as used the Lee list, the Tyding's Subcommittee list, and added his own "investigations" to his growing list.
And yes, Acheson, Pearson, and Marshall appeared on them. The Tyding's Subcommittee is the one you're thinking of that used only numbers.
For the very small minority that were identified on Venona, there were hundreds that were not. Moreover, there were some that were identified but were done so through complete coincidence, or had already changed views by the time McCarthy came to prominence (one example was Stephen Brunauer who was a communist, but later helped the United States by getting top scientists out of communist Hungary).
Of roughly 159 persons, there were 9 listed by Venona - most of whom were already being investigated by the FBI years before McCarthy yelled around in the Senate: Lauchlin Currie, Harold Glasser, Gerald Graze, Standley Graze, Many Jane Keeney, David Karr, Robert T. Miller, Franz Neumann, and William Remington.
Despite William F Buckley's and the John Birch Society's revisionism, McCarthy wasn't some shining example of shattering espionage. He was batting 5.6% and that was only because he was already using data provided by other subcommittees. He stood on the shoulders of weak data and made it weaker. Why the extreme right idolises that is really beyond me.
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And yes, Acheson, Pearson, and Marshall appeared on them. The Tyding's Subcommittee is the one you're thinking of that used only numbers.
I looked up more info on Drew Pearson (picked one at random).
His wife was identified as a Communist during testimony before the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee. In 1951.
McCarthy wasn't put on that committee until 1953.
As BT would say: "Timelines."
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I repeat.
Of roughly 159 persons, there were 9 listed by Venona - most of whom were already being investigated by the FBI years before McCarthy yelled around in the Senate: Lauchlin Currie, Harold Glasser, Gerald Graze, Standley Graze, Many Jane Keeney, David Karr, Robert T. Miller, Franz Neumann, and William Remington.
Despite William F Buckley's and the John Birch Society's revisionism, McCarthy wasn't some shining example of shattering espionage. He was batting 5.6% and that was only because he was already using data provided by other subcommittees. He stood on the shoulders of weak data and made it weaker. Why the extreme right idolises that is really beyond me.
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I repeat.
Of roughly 159 persons, there were 9 listed by Venona - most of whom were already being investigated by the FBI years before McCarthy yelled around in the Senate: Lauchlin Currie, Harold Glasser, Gerald Graze, Standley Graze, Many Jane Keeney, David Karr, Robert T. Miller, Franz Neumann, and William Remington.
Please provide the list of 159 persons that McCarthy published. I'd like to verify this.
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You'll notice Acheson, Pearson and Marshall on here as well. McCarthy was well out of control by then. The Second list is the only one not specifically cited by McCarthy, though he often said that the entire Lee List should be investigated.
Lee List numbers cited by McCarthy
Arndt, Ernest Theodore: McCarthy list # 14; Lee List # 10; Not identified in Venona
Barnett, Mrs. Robert Warren: McCarthy list # 49; Lee List # 59; Not identified in Venona
Barnett, Robert Warren: McCarthy list # 48; Lee List # 59; Not identified in Venona
Berman, Harold: McCarthy list # 70; Lee List # 85; Not identified in Venona
Brunauer, Esther Caukin: McCarthy list # 47; Lee List # 55; Not identified in Venona
Cameron, Gertrude: McCarthy list # 55; Lee List # 65; Not identified in Venona
Carlisle, Lois: McCarthy list # 58; Lee List # 68; Not identified in Venona
Carter, William D.: McCarthy list # 44; Lee List # 50; Not identified in Venona
Chipchin, Nelson: McCarthy list # 23; Not on Lee List: Benign identification in Venona[4]
Clucas, Lowell M., Jr.: McCarthy list # 26; Not on Lee List; Not identified in Venona
Delgado, Mucio: McCarthy list # 21; Lee List # 28; Not identified in Venona
Demerjian, Alice: McCarthy list # 61; Lee List # 72; Not identified in Venona
Dubois, Cora: McCarthy list # 60; Lee List # 70; Not identified in Venona
Ferry, Frances: McCarthy list # 11; Lee List # 8; Not identified in Venona
Fierst, Herbert: McCarthy list # 1; Lee List # 51; Not identified in Venona
Fishback, Sam: McCarthy list # 43; Lee List # 49; Not identified in Venona
Ford, James T.: McCarthy list # 76; Lee List # 96; Not identified in Venona
Gordon, Stella: McCarthy list # 40; Lee List # 45; Not identified in Venona
Graze, Gerald: McCarthy list # 29; Lee List # 25; Not identified in Venona
Graze, Stanley: McCarthy list # 8; Lee List # 8; Not identified in Venona
Grondahl, Tegnel Conrad: McCarthy list # 25; Not on Lee List; Not identified in Venona
Gross, Aaron Jack: McCarthy list # 68; Lee List # 83; Not identified in Venona
Harrison, Marcia Ruth: McCarthy list # 7; Lee List # 4; Not identified in Venona
Horwin, Leonard: McCarthy list # 73; Lee List # 91; Not identified in Venona
Hunt, Victor: McCarthy list # 65; Lee List # 79; Not identified in Venona
Ilyefalvi-Vites, Gizella: McCarthy list # 4; Lee List # 3; Not identified in Venona
Jankowski, Joseph T.: McCarthy list # 74; Lee List # 92; Not identified in Venona
Jessup, Philip: McCarthy list # 15; Not on Lee List; Not identified in Venona
Josephson, Joseph: McCarthy list # 30; Lee List # 28; Not identified in Venona
Kamarck, Andrew W.: McCarthy list # 78; Lee List # 100; Not identified in Venona
Katusich, Ivan: McCarthy list # 27; Not on Lee List; Not identified in Venona
Kaufman, Arthur Milton: McCarthy list # 38; Lee List # 43; Not identified in Venona
Kopelewish, Esther Less aka Mrs. Less: McCarthy list # 24; Not on Lee List; Not identified in Venona
Lansberg, Hans: McCarthy list # 28; Lee List # 21; Not identified in Venona
Lemon, Edythe J.: McCarthy list # 18; Lee List # 16; Not identified in Venona
Lewis, Mrs. Preston Keesling: McCarthy list # 75; Lee List # 93; Not identified in Venona
Lifantieff-Lee, Paul A.: McCarthy list # 56; Lee List # 66; Not identified in Venona
Lindsey, John Richard: McCarthy list # 67; Lee List # 81; Not identified in Venona
Lloyd, David Demarest: McCarthy list # 9; Lee List # 99; Not identified in Venona
Lorwin, Val R.: McCarthy list # 54; Lee List # 64; Not identified in Venona
Maguite, Sylvia: McCarthy list # 69; Lee List # 84; Not identified in Venona
Mann, Gottfried Thomas: McCarthy list # 42; Lee List # 47; Not identified in Venona
Margolies, Daniel F.: McCarthy list # 41; Lee List # 46; Not identified in Venona
Margolin, Arnold D.: McCarthy list # 72; Lee List # 90; Not identified in Venona
Meigs, Peveril: McCarthy list # 3; Lee List # 2; Not identified in Venona
Miller, Robert T.: McCarthy list # 16; Lee List # 12; Not identified in Venona
Montague, Ella M.: McCarthy list # 34; Lee List # 32; Not identified in Venona
Neal, Fred Warner: McCarthy list # 57; Lee List # 67; Not identified in Venona
Ness, Norman T.: McCarthy list # 45; Lee List # 53; Not identified in Venona
Neumann, Franz Leopold: McCarthy list # 59; Lee List # 69; Not identified in Venona
Osnatch, Olga F.: McCarthy list # 37; Lee List # 42; Not identified in Venona
Parsons, Ruby A.: McCarthy list # 81; Lee List # 78; Not identified in Venona
Perkins, Isham W.: McCarthy list # 62; Lee List # 73; Not identified in Venona
Peter, Hollis W.: McCarthy list # 64; Lee List # 76; Not identified in Venona
Polyzoides, T. Achilles: McCarthy list # 79; Lee List # 105; Not identified in Venona
Posner, Marjorie S.: McCarthy list # 10; Lee List # 7; Not identified in Venona
Posniak, Edward G.: McCarthy list # 77; Not on Lee List; Not identified in Venona
Post, Richard: McCarthy list # 53; Lee List # 63; Not identified in Venona
Raine, Philip: McCarthy list # 52; Lee List # 62; Not identified in Venona
Randolph, David (aka Rosenberg): McCarthy list # 66; Lee List # 80; Not identified in Venona
Rapoport, Alexander: McCarthy list # 22; Not on Lee List; Not identified in Venona
Remington, William: McCarthy list # 19; Not on Lee List; Not identified in Venona.
Robinson, Jay: McCarthy list # 5; Lee List # 5; Not identified in Venona
Rommel, Rowena: McCarthy list # 51; Lee List # 61; Not identified in Venona
Ross, Lewis: McCarthy list # 31; Lee List # 29; Not identified in Venona
Ross, Robert: McCarthy list # 32; Lee List # 30; Not identified in Venona
Schimmel, Sylvia: McCarthy list # 50; Lee List # 60; Not identified in Venona
Shell, Melville: McCarthy list # 35; Lee List # 34; Not identified in Venona
Siegel, Herman: McCarthy list # 33; Lee List # 31; Not identified in Venona
Smith, S. Stevenson: McCarthy list # 20; Lee List # 20; Not identified in Venona
Smith (Schmidt), Frederick W.: McCarthy list # 36; Lee List # 40; Not identified in Venona
Stoinaoff, Stoian: McCarthy list # 71; Lee List # 87; Not identified in Venona
Stone, William T.: McCarthy list # 46; Lee List # 54; Not identified in Venona
Taylor, Jeanne E.: McCarthy list # 17; Lee List # 14; Not identified in Venona
Tuchscher, Frances M.: McCarthy list # 6; Lee List # 6; Not identified in Venona
Vincent, John Carter: McCarthy list # 2; Lee List # 52; Not identified in Venona
Volin, Maz A.: McCarthy list # 39; Lee List # 44; Not identified in Venona
Washburn, John T.: McCarthy list # 80; Lee List # 106; Not identified in Venona
Washburne, Carleton: McCarthy list # 13; Lee List # 9; Not identified in Venona
Wilcox, Stanley: McCarthy list # 63; Lee List # 75; Not identified in Venona
Yuhas, Helen: McCarthy list # 12; Lee List # 107; Not identified in Venona
Lee List names curiously not cited by McCarthy
Alexander, Dorothy Helen: Lee List # 38; Not identified in Venona
Blaisdell, Donald C.: Lee List # 103; Not identified in Venona
Borton, Hugh: Lee List # 57; Not identified in Venona
Burlingame, Robert Sparks: Lee List # 108; Not identified in Venona
DeMoretz, Shirley T.: Lee List # 27; Not identified in Venona
Elinson, Marcelle D.: Lee List # 104; Not identified in Venona
Eminowicz, Halina D.: Lee List # 48; Not identified in Venona
Fine, Sherwood Monroe: Lee List # 23; Not identified in Venona
Fishburn, John Tipton: Lee List # 106; Not identified in Venona
Forno, Joseph T.: Lee List # 96; Not identified in Venona
Fournier, Norman L.: Lee List # 98; Not identified in Venona
Hankin, Robert: Lee List # 94; Not identified in Venona
Hughes, Henry Stuart: Lee List # 77; Not identified in Venona
Jackson, Malcolm Aage: Lee List # 15; Not identified in Venona
Kamarck, Andrew W.: Lee List # 100; Not identified in Venona
Lazarus, Theodore: Lee List # 26; Not identified in Venona
Lovell, Leander Bell: Lee List # 22; Not identified in Venona
Lunning, Just: Lee List # 11; Not identified in Venona
Magruder, John H., III: Lee List # 17; Not identified in Venona
Mallon, Dwight S.: Lee List # 89; Not identified in Venona
Martin, Shirley Mae: Lee List # 33; Not identified in Venona
Martingale, Rose Marie: Lee List # 37; Not identified in Venona
McDavid, Raven I., Jr.: Lee List # 19; Not identified in Venona
Moore, Leith Celestia: Lee List # 18; Not identified in Venona
Parker, Glen T.: Lee List # 95; Not identified in Venona
Pesto, Paula Pavedo: Lee List # 82; Not identified in Venona
Rennie, Leonard C.: Lee List # 13; Not identified in Venona
Rose, Ernest William: Lee List # 41; Not identified in Venona
Rosenthal, Albert H.: Lee List # 97; Not identified in Venona
Rothwell, George J.: Lee List # 7; Not identified in Venona
Royce, Edith M.: Lee List # 35; Not identified in Venona
Rudlin, Walter Arthur: Lee List # 56; Ambiguously identified in Venona
Salmon, Thomas R.: Lee List # 39; Not identified in Venona
Shevlin, Lorraine Arnold: Lee List # 86; Not identified in Venona
Smothers, Frank Albert: Lee List # 102; Not identified in Venona
Thomson, Charles A.: Lee List # 58; Not identified in Venona
Thursz, Jonathan: Lee List # 74; Not identified in Venona
Toory, Dr. Frank P.: Lee List # 88; Not identified in Venona
Tuckerman, Gustavus: Lee List # 101; Not identified in Venona
Wilfert, Howard F.: Lee List # 36; Not identified in Venona
Wood, James E.: Lee List # 24; Not identified in Venona
Names personally given to the Tydings Subcommittee by McCarthy
Askwith, Edna Jerry: Not identified in Venona
Erdos, Arpad: Not identified in Venona
Grajdanzeve, Andrew aka Grade, Andrew: Not identified in Venona
Harris, Reed: Not identified in Venona Not identified in Venona
Henkin, Louis: Not identified in Venona
Hulten, Charles M.: Not identified in Venona
Ingram, George Mason: Not identified in Venona
Ludden, Raymond Paul: Not identified in Venona
Meeker, Leonard C.: Not identified in Venona
Nelson, Clarence J.: Not identified in Venona
Newbegin, Robert: Not identified in Venona
Ramon, Josephine: Not identified in Venona
Rowe, James W.: Not identified in Venona
Sanders, William: Not identified in Venona
Tate, Jack B.: Not identified in Venona
Zablodgwskei, David: Not identified in Venona
Senate Speeches 1950 to 1952
Brunauer, Stephen: Not identified in Venona
Clubb, Oliver Edmund: Not identified in Venona
Currie, Lauchlin: Identified in Venona as a Soviet Espionage Source
Davies, John Paton: Not identified in Venona
Duran, Gustavo: Not identified in Venona
Geiger, Theodore: Not identified in Venona
Glasser, Harold: Identified in Venona as a Soviet Espionage Source
Hanson, Haldore: Not identified in Venona
Keeney, Mary Jane: Identified in Venona as a Soviet Espionage Source
Kenyon, Dorothy: Not identified in Venona
Kerserling, Mary: Not identified in Venona
Keyserling, Leon: Not identified in Venona
Lattimore, Owen: Not identified in Venona
Nash, Philleo: Not identified in Venona
Schuman, Frederick: Not identified in Venona
Service, John Stewart: Not identified in Venona. Identified by FBI bugging in 1945 as having deliberately leaked DOS information to the pro-Communist journal Amerasia
Shapley, Harlow: Not identified in Venona
Senate Speech 14 June 1951
Acheson, Dean: Benign identification in Venona
Marshall, George C.: Benign identification in Venona
Senate Speech 19 December 1950
Karr, David: Identified in Venona as assisting Soviet Espionage
Pearson, Drew: Benign Identification in Venona
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Lee List numbers cited by McCarthy
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Graze, Gerald: McCarthy list # 29; Lee List # 25; Not identified in Venona
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ROFL.
The first one I picked off your list as "Not identified" was listed in the Venona papers. Wonder what my hit percentage would be if I checked all the names.
List of Americans in the Venona papers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Americans_in_the_Venona_papers)
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Be my guest, check every one, but I trust my source as reliable.
I cannot connect to your wiki link, by the way.
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Be my guest, check every one, but I trust my source as reliable.
Well, I found one already that was unreliable.
I cannot connect to your wiki link, by the way.
Fixed the link.
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Any more?
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Any more?
Not yet. Working wierd hours this week due to training the operations people in Boston.