DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Xavier_Onassis on December 19, 2011, 01:14:57 PM
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{I was going to copy an image here, but I can't seem to get it to appear}
What a totally cool photo for a short little pudgy guy that measured 5'3" in platform shoes!
We should remember him like this: an obvious distortion of reality, obviously distorted to everyone. Dear Leader, who replaced his father, Great Leader, has died at 69, only two years older than the Newtster. It was the only father-to-son transfer of power in a Communist state.
Kim Jong Il, who Senator Jesse Helms once referred to as "Kim Jong the Second" has died, apparently passing the throne on to his son Kim Jong Un, who seems to be spelling his name Kim Jong Eun lately.
We should remember him as the best propagandist, ever. Now that title will pass on to Fox News, and Kim Jong Eun will have to fight to get it back.
Kim Jong Eun will need a title: "Fearless Leader", perhaps? Boris and Natasha have departed and the title is available on E-Bay, I hear.
Donald Trump still holds the title for weirdest male hairdo, but whoever was in third place is now in second.
They say he died of cancer. Hugo Chávez also has cancer. Could it be that the CIA has a new secret weapon?
For those actually interested in North Korea, I recommend the graphic novel Pyongyang, by Canadian cartoonist Guy Delisle as a start, and Bruce Cumings, North Korea: Another Country.
Some of what we hear is propaganda, some isn't: the best description of what we know of North Korea is "incomplete".
I don't know whether North Korea is likely to become unstable or not. The military seems to have been in control there since Kim fell ill in 2008. South Korea is a prosperous nation, but a bit reluctant to want to unify itself with the North, because of what they observed when the two Germanys reunited in 1990, which caused a variety of disruptions, which resulted in the end of a whole generation of politicians. Angela Merkel is the daughter of an East German minister.
The North Korean generals probably realize that the people would be vastly better off if Korea were unified, but it would NOT be better for them to go from being an important person to being a taxi driver. There are no likely openings in management for a Communist Army officer or bureaucrat in the government of a unified Korea.
Together, the two Koreas would be the 84th country in area and the 18th in population. The South has 49 million, the North has 24 million, together that makes 73 million. In area it measures 84,000 mi²., which is 2,000 mi² larger than Kansas.
The Chinese are the most concerned, since the border is longer and easier to cross into China than the border with S. Korea.Japan is also influential in this area, as is Russia, that shares a short border with North Korea.
It could be good news or bad news for Obama's re election, as there are factors that are entirely outside Obama's or any US president's control that could be positive or negative.
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How would this be any news, good or bad, for Obama's election chances? His own record is so bad that.......he authorized a Seal team to go in, and make it look like natural causes??
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Yeah, that's is, sirs.
A mind like a steel trap!
If the CIA could give cancer to unpleasant world leaders, they certainly would not publicize it.
Only after the Shah of Iran was dead and gone did the word get out that they got a specimen of his pee from a bogus urinal.
The CIA knew the Shah was doomed before he or any Iranians knew, it seems.
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Still waiting for an answer to the question. I realize that deflection efforts, outside of personal insults movie critiquing are your strengths, but give it a try......How would this be any news, good or bad, for Obama's election chances?
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I am not here to answer your questions, sorry.
Kim's death could be good, bad or have no effect at all on the US elections. The North Koreans generally do something to show that they are in control and will put up with no nonsense from foreigners when they think they might look vulnerable. They fired doff a missile this morning, not at anyone in particular. The President should not overreact to essentially harmless gestures ans posturing, and keep an eye on the situation.
I do not profess to have any expertise on what North Korea will do.
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I am not here to answer your questions, sorry.
Then what are you doing here in a debate forum, where we ask others questions, and those answers are then reinforced with some supportive back-up, be it facts and/or logic??
Kim's death could be good, bad or have no effect at all on the US elections.
Good Gravy, can you be more vague?? How would it effect Obama's chances good or bad?? THAT is what you said......lemme quote it again...."It could be good news or bad news for Obama's re election, as there are factors that are entirely outside Obama's or any US president's control that could be positive or negative"
So, being this is a debate forum, how would it??
I do not profess to have any expertise on what North Korea will do.
You sure seem to profess to be an expert on Black people and boxing spectators. Besides, this has nothing to do with "what NK does". Or is that what you're trying to articulate, but struggling to do? That this may cause NK to do "something", which would then potentially having Obama doing "something", then that "something" could influence his election chances??
If that's the case, could you have not responded in that fashion the 1st time asked vs the childish delfections that you're not here to answer questions?
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I do not have any idea what the death of Kim Jong Il would have on the presidential election. It might have no effect at all.It does not seem to depend on what the President does so much as what Koreans and Chinese do.
I do know what many racists thought about Muhammad Ali, because they told me. I have a better view of the past than of the future.
Answering questions for you is a waste of time. You dispute anything and everything, and all discussions end up with you saying "asked and answered", or some claim that the wrong question was answered or yet another stupid digression into Juniorbush's (s)election, What Juniorbush knew before invading Iraq, and yada yada yada unto infinity.
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Spoken like a true incoherent "professor". Try taking a breath next time.
So, you're debunking your earlier position on how this could effect Obama's chances at re-election, because now you plead ignorance. Which is fine, and probably points to the fact you perhaps shouldn't have made such a vague statement to begin with, if you had no intention of backing it up. I actually thought you'd run with the most logical thought process, that of Obama reacting to "something" that NK might do, which would in turn likely effect Obama's re-election campain, but apparently you decided not to follow that path. So be it
And your own person connection with racists who didn't like Ali, hardly paints some grand picture of boxing fans/spectators who go simply to "watch some uppity Negro get clobbered". So I'm glad we can put that one to rest now as well.
And you're close on the disputing anything/everything. Pretty much anything/everything related to hardcore leftist policies, as well intentioned as they might sound or even conceived, rarely work in the real world.....unless we want to throw freedom and that which made this country great, right out the window
Which begs the follow-up, IIRC you dispute anything & everything conservative, right?? So, does that make you a waste of time??
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He is a Kim Ill, this is predictable.
Won't be long till North Korea does something dangerous and irritating , perhaps even deadly.
The new guy will have to prove he is toothy and potent , a worthy successor.
I think they will sink a Japaneese or S.Korean ship, kidnap a British actor , kill a randomly chosen Asian political leader and explode an A-bomb.
Why is this predictable?
Because we have been through it before.
This really will be a good oppurtunity for the President of Hope and Change to confrount the same old threat in a new way.
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...but don't be surprised if its merely more of his appeasement policy
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I think they will sink a Japaneese or S.Korean ship, kidnap a British actor , kill a randomly chosen Asian political leader and explode an A-bomb.
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I would imagine a rocket test or firing on a ship or that island might be likely. But exploding an A-bomb, no. They have never done that. There is a line that they know that they will not be allowed to cross, and nuclear weapons are clearly one of them. perhaps they will cause some disruption along the DMZ.
There are no doubt secret messages being exchanged between the various other five members of the talks: Japan, South Korea, Russia, China and the US. I doubt they would deliberately kidnap a British actor. Why mess with the UK?
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I would imagine a rocket test or firing on a ship or that island might be likely. But exploding an A-bomb, no. They have never done that.
North Korea has exploded nuclear devices on 2006/10/09 and 2009/05/25.
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I maybe getting bogus info ,but I still use it. I read recently that the average n.korean is 2 inches shorter than the south due to nutrition and the majority of the poorer classes has always been unhappy with the regime. despite n.korea has a larger army it also has alot of outmoded tech. so n.korea maybe in a more vulnerable position than expected
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45725040/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/cigars-cognac-mass-starvation-facts-divide-north-korea-world/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45725040/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/cigars-cognac-mass-starvation-facts-divide-north-korea-world/)
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I would imagine a rocket test or firing on a ship or that island might be likely. But exploding an A-bomb, no. They have never done that.
North Korea has exploded nuclear devices on 2006/10/09 and 2009/05/25.
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/aria_c9472020111220120100.jpg)
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Kin Jong rot in hell a-hole...for stealing the north korean people's potential!
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Politics/225b6a97-1.jpg)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea)
according to wiki n.korea was hardly self-sufficent. quite alot of foreign aid going on.
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Kimba....just think what North Korea would look like in a decade if the new leader came out and said "we need to unite with South Korea and become one democratic country....we will encourage corporations and free market business.....we invite foreign investment....we will be democratic...we want to be like East Germany when they threw away what was not working and reunited with West Germany to become a economic powerhouse....our people deserve this after all their suffering....it is a new day for the North Korean People and they will be allowed to reach their destiny and full potential.".
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Kimba....just think what North Korea would look like in a decade if the new leader came out and said "we need to unite with South Korea and become one democratic country.
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Where is Mikhail Gorbachov today? A professor at an American university? Do you seriously think that Kim Jong Un would have any place at all in either Korea after unification? I don't see him as a visiting professor of Korean studies anywhere.
Where would all the NFL players be if their sport was replaced by rugby?
Where would all those DPRK generals think they would be in a new united Korea if this happened?
They all know what happened to Rumanian, Czech, Polish, Slovak, Hungarian Russian sympathizers.
I'd say that it is very unlikely that any of those who have power and status in the DPRK today would be all that eager to commit social suicide. It would be like you moving your business to Harlem in the interests of improving the lot of the people there.
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Where would all the NFL players be if their sport was replaced by rugby?
Where would all those DPRK generals think they would be in a new united Korea if this happened?
That hits the nail on the head.
If Rugby replaced Football NFL players would learn the new rules and flourish because they are athletes and the skill is translatable.
North Korean Economic professors , Generals , instructors of communistic theroy and Juche government would mostly become taxi Drivers ,and I doubt thay would be the best taxi drivers in Korea either.
A lot of the government of East Germany is still in the government business , but they had useable skill, do the people of the government of NKorea feel as if they could compete ?
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A lot of the government of East Germany is still in the government business , but they had useable skill, do the people of the government of NKorea feel as if they could compete ?
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I really doubt that this is true. A huge number of East Germans in all parts of society worked for the Stasi, the secret police. After unification, the list of former Stasi was published. Most of them were simply given small pensions and retired, as no one would hire them. They have skills, perhaps, but those they have would be mostly unusable in South Korea.
What I was saying is that there are a very limited number of professional sport players. The supply is always greater than the demand. The football players would not likely be hired to join the professional rugby teams and would not get the necessary training. There is only a short time during which anyone can play most pro sports.
The fact is that the Generals have it better than everyone in the DPRK, and if unification were to occur, they would lose status immediately, as as all the many atrocities perpetuated by the Kim government in which they collaborated became public, they would come to be loathed quite deeply by everyone. Something like this occurred in East Germany.
The West German politicians that supported unification mostly did not last beyond the next election afterwards. The same would likely happen in Korea.
Imagine what would happen if the US were to merge with a Canada with 150 million people to the political class here and in Canada. New people would emerge to replace those who failed to adapt to the many changes.
As for the North Koreans doing this out of patriotism or charity, I really doubt this would happen.
I do think that Korea will be united someday, but it will cause radical changes and several years of disorder and chaos as well as politically, culturally and economically. It is almost a sure thing that most politicians on both sides will lose out unless they are very adept and clever (as were Yeltsin and Putin).
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hmm
not really workable, but if s.korea is willing to support the north for five years and create and extensive conversion program to make an top notch technocratic state . think of that part of the country devouted to pure unrestricted production from food to tech. sadly I doubt you can get that many low tech people to that level . my mom can barely use the phone. the cell phone is asking too much.
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It would be a long and difficult process.
China almost certainly prefers to have a border with an impoverished DPRK rather than a prosperous free market unified Korea on its border.
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the thing is we only see s. koreans. we don`t know what n. koreans are like. we``re talking over 30 years here. they gotta be radically different people. technology is just one factor. what i linked already showed physical difference
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Do you seriously think that Kim Jong Un.....
Do you seriously think I have any illusions that doing
the right thing for the people will happen in Commi North Korea?
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the varience would be similiar to isreali / palistinian .interestingly I would expect a greater physical difference from the isreali/palestinian but for some reason that didn`t happen.
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The immediate question, I understand, is can this new leader consolidate power within North Korea, and what will happen if he can't? If he can't, a potential danger is who will have control of their nuclear weapons? The threat when these countries like North Korea, and Iran, get nukes, is one of the nukes getting on the black market as much as these countries having possession of them themselves.
BSB
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If Kim Jong Il cannot manage, the Army will move in and take over and leave him as a figurehead. No one wants chaos, especially the Chinese. I don't see any real problem with the nukes.
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Your response has a few assumptions in it, XO.
I'm not too sure that "the Army" is of one mind. Neither am I too sure China would have all that much control over an internal power struggle. And while you may not see any real problem with the nukes, there are people who's job it is too think about these things who aren't so reassured.
BSB
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I really doubt that there will be any immediate change in North Korea. I am not opposed to people thinking about nukes: that is their job. But I don't think there is more danger now than there was before Dear Leader kicked the bucket.
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lots of bad guys...croaking, killed by Special Ops, getting cancer, or leaving power this year!
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Now they say that Kim died on a train to some non specified place of a heart attack. He was clearly none too healthy, judging from his most recent pictures. I suppose it is possible that the CIA had something to do with his illness and perhaps his death, but there is no evidence of this, and the odds are we will never be sure.
It is pretty clear that he is dead.
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"But I don't think there is more danger now than there was before Dear Leader kicked the bucket."
Again, XO, that appears to be a personal assumption on your part.
I'm not giving you my personal thoughts on the matter. I'm relaying what those who have been studying North Korea professionally for years are saying. I have no personal thoughts on what may be transpiring in NK because I simply don't know, and I don't know how you could either. Now, if you have an inside track, such as someone who studies them, or something you read, by all means share it. But North Korea is far too cloistered for personal guesses to be of much value.
BSB
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The question is where does n.korea stand with it's own poeple? I hear crazy things about that country.
The leader rents out slave to russians. This to me is proof we don't know anything about that country.
http://www.thedailyactivist.com/human-rights-north-korean-slaves-siberian-labor-camps/ (http://www.thedailyactivist.com/human-rights-north-korean-slaves-siberian-labor-camps/)
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Thanks for posting that, Kimba. Very interesting.
I rather expected that Kim would be doing something like this. In Delisles' book, he mentions how the best of the fruit crop is exported.
I am not opposed to the US having contingency plans to deal with potential problems with North Korea. I think they are essential, in fact. But I personally do not believe that there will be any more than the usual blustering from North Korea, and perhaps less than usual. Juniorbush provoked them in several ways, and Obama has not done this. No one wants a war, especially South Korea, since Seoul is so close to the DMZ. Calling it a Demilitarized Zone is real irony, since it is one of the most fortified places on Earth.
I supposed that members of the DPRK Army could end up feuding with one another overtly, but I don't know enough to determine that this is al all likely.
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When NKorea blusters , dozens of people get killed.
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Only sometimes.