DebateGate

General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: hnumpah on February 25, 2007, 04:22:12 AM

Title: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: hnumpah on February 25, 2007, 04:22:12 AM
U.S. developing contingency plan to bomb Iran: report

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Despite the Bush administration's insistence it has no plans to go to war with Iran, a Pentagon panel has been created to plan a bombing attack that could be implemented within 24 hours of getting the go-ahead from President George W. Bush, The New Yorker magazine reported in its latest issue.

The special planning group was established within the office of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in recent months, according to an unidentified former U.S. intelligence official cited in the article by investigative reporter Seymour Hersh in the March 4 issue.

The panel initially focused on destroying Iran's nuclear facilities and on regime change but has more recently been directed to identify targets in Iran that may be involved in supplying or aiding militants in Iraq, according to an Air Force adviser and a Pentagon consultant, who were not identified.

The consultant and a former senior intelligence official both said that U.S. military and special-operations teams had crossed the border from Iraq into Iran in pursuit of Iranian operatives, according to the article.

In response to the report, Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said: "The United States is not planning to go to war with Iran. To suggest anything to the contrary is simply wrong, misleading and mischievous.

"The United States has been very clear with respect to its concerns regarding specific Iranian government activities. The president has repeatedly stated publicly that this country is going to work with allies in the region to address those concerns through diplomatic efforts," Whitman said.

Pentagon officials say they maintain contingency plans for literally dozens of potential conflicts around the world and that all plans are subject to regular and ongoing review.

The article, citing unnamed current and former U.S. officials, also said the Bush administration received intelligence from Israel that Iran had developed an intercontinental missile capable of delivering several small warheads that could reach Europe. It added the validity of that intelligence was still being debated.

The article also included an interview conducted in December with Hezbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, who said that while he had no interest in initiating another war with Israel, he was anticipating and preparing for another Israeli attack sometime this year.

Israel launched a cross-border offensive against Hezbollah in Lebanon last July.

Nasrallah also said he was open to talks with Washington if such discussions "can be useful and influential in determining American policy in the region," but they would be waste of time if the purpose was to impose policy.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070225/pl_nm/usa_iran_dc_1
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: BT on February 25, 2007, 05:25:58 AM
Lanya's article said this was a dusted off Clinton era plan.
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: Michael Tee on February 25, 2007, 12:35:43 PM
<<NEW YORK (Reuters) - Despite the Bush administration's insistence it has no plans to go to war with Iran, a Pentagon panel has been created to plan a bombing attack that could be implemented within 24 hours of getting the go-ahead from President George W. Bush, The New Yorker magazine reported in its latest issue.>>

BT:  <<Lanya's article said this was a dusted off Clinton era plan.>>

Oh, I get it.  It doesn't really belong to the new administration, they are allowed to look at it on on paying a viewing fee to the Clinton administration and when they finish looking at it in Bill's library, they have to leave it there with him.  I'm glad we cleared that up, otherwise I'd have to put this down as just one more in an apparently endless chain of Bush Lies.
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: BT on February 25, 2007, 12:53:35 PM
What lie is that?
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: Michael Tee on February 25, 2007, 01:39:25 PM
The "we have no plans to go to war with Iran" lie followed after a little MSM contradiction by "oops heh heh other than this little Clinton-era relic that somebody just dusted off."
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: BT on February 25, 2007, 02:17:17 PM
Seems to me most of the talk has been about not taking options off the table.

I don't recall Bush ruling out any options. Can you provide a quote in context, where he said we would not go tio war with Iran?

or should we just chalk this up to being more of a lie from your side.

Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: The_Professor on February 25, 2007, 02:33:12 PM
I would advocate that it is not responsible to NOT have plans for any conceivable contingency. After all, you never know what MIGHT happen, so you need a plan to pull up if it DOES.
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: Michael Tee on February 25, 2007, 03:53:47 PM
BT:  <<Can you provide a quote in context, where he said we would not go tio war with Iran?>>

Didn't have to go far for that one - - it's in the lead of the article itself:

<<NEW YORK (Reuters) - Despite the Bush administration's insistence it has no plans to go to war with Iran . . . >>
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: Michael Tee on February 25, 2007, 03:57:41 PM
<<I would advocate that it is not responsible to NOT have plans for any conceivable contingency. After all, you never know what MIGHT happen, so you need a plan to pull up if it DOES.>>

I don't really know about that, I have no contingency plans to murder my next door neighbour and I don't know why Bush would need plans to commit a purely illegal act of criminal aggression similar to his past crimes, either, but in any event, the lying little bastard apparently has said that he has no such plans and lo and behold, there they are, he DOES have such plans.
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: The_Professor on February 25, 2007, 04:13:28 PM
Nation states need to have these plans.

So what is YOUR plan on delaing with Iran, MT?
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: Michael Tee on February 25, 2007, 04:29:25 PM
<<Nation states need to have these plans.>>

That wasn't the point, Professor.  The AP article claimed that Bush denied having the plans which it appears that he has, and I merely pointed out the guy was a liar (for the 9,000th time.)

I don't know which plans nations need or don't need.  Probably the U.S. plans are first-strike plans, so there is nothing defensive or retaliatory about them.  If the plans were reactive plans, dealing with an IRANIAN first strike, there might be some justification for them, although you'd have to question the wisdom of wasting so much money to formulate a response to an attack which in all probability will never be delivered.

My plan for dealing with Iraq is to indict all the top leadership of their justice system for murder in the case of Zahra Kazemi, convene a session of the International Court of Justice at the Hague for the trial of the indicted, appoint lawyers for them, if they won't choose their own, conduct the trial in absentia if necessary and (if convicted) sentence them all (in an ideal world, to death, in the real world of the U.N. to whatever penalty the court is permitted by law to impose) and then start ordering the torturing, murdering bastards to produce the guilty to serve their sentences.  And then just apply escalating sanctions till they comply.  Or don't.

I really don't know, Professor.  I don't think the U.N. should have told them to stop enriching nuclear fuel.  The threat is real, but it's no more than the threat of Pakistan or Israel having the same weapons, there's no moral jurisdiction for the U.N. to make an order against Iran that it's unwilling or unable to make agaisnt Israel or to sanction Iran but not Israel for breach of U.N. resolutions.  I would try to work on a regional solution that addresses the concerns of all the players, most of which are outraged morally by the ongoing persecutions of the Palestinians.  These issues just can't be allowed to fester any more.
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: BT on February 25, 2007, 05:18:02 PM
Quote
<<NEW YORK (Reuters) - Despite the Bush administration's insistence it has no plans to go to war with Iran . . . >


I do believe Bush was discussing chronological aspects, versus tactical.

Try to keep it honest, Mikey. Your side suffers when your credibility does. Do it for them.
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: Michael Tee on February 25, 2007, 10:26:09 PM
<<I do believe Bush was discussing chronological aspects, versus tactical. >>

I do believe you are desperate to read that into the remarks as reported, BT, otherwise your man would again appear to be lying.  But a desperate wish to read something into reported remarks that just isn't there doesn't change what the guy said, does it?

<<Try to keep it honest, Mikey.>>   

Maybe your entreaties should be directed to the AP, BT.  I read the piece again, and I don't see any indication that Bush was qualifying his remarks chronologically or any other way.  In fact, the use of the word "Despite" at the very start of the first sentence clearly indicates that there was an obvious contradiction between what the Bush administration was saying and what the actual truth of the matter was.

<<Your side suffers when your credibility does. Do it for them. >>

That's really very funny, BT.  THAT is an admonition that clearly should be directed to your "President," that lying little shit.  Seems like every day he's caught in one lie or another.  You'd think by now he'd have learned.
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: BT on February 25, 2007, 11:03:14 PM
Quote
Maybe your entreaties should be directed to the AP, BT.

I'm not in direct contact with them, besides we know the AP makes stuff up as it goes along.

You, i have direct contact with. And i know you have a sense of honor. You know damn well what Bush was talking about. So keep it honest.



Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: hnumpah on February 25, 2007, 11:52:20 PM
Quote
So keep it honest.

There's a laffer.

Hell, if you do, your personal feelings are clouding your judgement, or some such crap.

.
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: BT on February 26, 2007, 01:04:09 AM
Quote
Hell, if you do, your personal feelings are clouding your judgement, or some such crap.

If your personal feelings clouded your judgment, recognize and deal with it. If they didn't who gives a damn what others say.

I assume we are still dealing with the sergeant?
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: hnumpah on February 26, 2007, 02:04:57 PM
Quote
I assume we are still dealing with the sergeant?

Are we? Or is it a pattern I've seen in here where, when all other answers to an open and honest posting of someone's point of view fail, the fall back position is that somehow they must be deluded, irrational, lacking common sense, letting their emotions cloud their logic, or some such other nonsense?

And I really don't give a damn what you think; I would prefer, though, that you keep it to yourself rather than post your pseudoanalysis of me in this forum. So yeah, I fire back. It's the only way I have of trying to keep you, and others, honest.

Recognize and deal with it.
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: BT on February 26, 2007, 05:30:54 PM
I disagreed with your assessment of the sergeants statement.

so it goes.
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: Michael Tee on February 26, 2007, 06:29:45 PM
<<You, i have direct contact with. And i know you have a sense of honor. You know damn well what Bush was talking about. So keep it honest.>>

I know what he was talking about, alright - - plans to bomb Iran.  Said he had none.  But it turns out he did.  The story didn't mention that the plans came with an expired shelf life and nothing I've seen from the Bush administration indicates that they're out of time.  That's just in your wishful imagination.  Bush could have said, "I've got some out-dated contingency plans but they're no good any more," if that's in fact the case.  We don't know that it's the case and in any event he never said that.  As far as I'm concerned, the guy just lied again, pure and simple.  If he wants to make the case that he was referring to out-dated plans that couldn't be used, fine with me but right now we don't even know if that's the case.  I'm betting that if the little shit has plans, they're good to go right now.
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: Amianthus on February 26, 2007, 06:38:06 PM
The story didn't mention that the plans came with an expired shelf life and nothing I've seen from the Bush administration indicates that they're out of time.  That's just in your wishful imagination.

Guess you missed Lanya's article, which said in part:

Quote
Already during the Clinton administration, US Central Command (USCENTCOM) had formulated in 1995  "in war theater plans" to invade first Iraq and then Iran.

Wishful thinking would be your insistance that the plans were not just dusted off from the Clinton era.
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: sirs on February 26, 2007, 07:06:05 PM
Guess you missed Lanya's article, which said in part:

Quote
Already during the Clinton administration, US Central Command (USCENTCOM) had formulated in 1995  "in war theater plans" to invade first Iraq and then Iran.

Wishful thinking would be your insistance that the plans were not just dusted off from the Clinton era.

D'OH
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on February 26, 2007, 09:35:10 PM
We will always remember. We will always be proud. We will always be prepared, so we will always be free........Ronald Reagan

==================================================
What we should always remember is how the military-industrial complex kept the US in Vietnam for 12 long years while they profited.

We should be proud that we impeached that lying scumbag Nixon and should be working on a greater degree of pride by impeaching both Cheney and Juniorbush.

If we are not prepared for asshole politicians destroying our rights in order to "combat terrorism" by monitoring our every transaction, we won't be free.

Reagan failed to point out that his party was the greatest threat to our freedoms.
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: sirs on February 26, 2007, 11:20:48 PM
We will always remember. We will always be proud. We will always be prepared, so we will always be free........Ronald Reagan

==================================================
What we should always remember is how the military-industrial complex kept the US in Vietnam for 12 long years while they profited....Reagan failed to point out that his party was the greatest threat to our freedoms.


<----------------------------<<           .           <-------whooooosh------------------------<<


Did you hear it, Hoof?
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: Michael Tee on February 27, 2007, 01:26:16 AM
<<Despite the Bush administration's insistence it has no plans to go to war with Iran, a Pentagon panel has been created to plan a bombing attack that could be implemented within 24 hours of getting the go-ahead from President George W. Bush, The New Yorker magazine reported in its latest issue.

<<The special planning group was established within the office of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in recent months, according to an unidentified former U.S. intelligence official cited in the article by investigative reporter Seymour Hersh in the March 4 issue.>>

That's the first two paras of the article hnumpah quoted from at the start of this thread.

Here's how Ami tries to portray the plans which Prezdint Liar claims not to have:

<<Wishful thinking would be your insistance that the plans were not just dusted off from the Clinton era.>>

Dusted off from the Clinton era, my ass!

Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: hnumpah on February 27, 2007, 06:13:32 AM
Quote
I disagreed with your assessment of the sergeants statement.

so it goes.

Ayuh. Then a few posts later mentioned to someone that you thought I was letting emotion cloud my judgement, or some such crap.

I really don't give a damn that we disagree. It's your (and others) sly little (mis-) characterizations of me that I mind.

So it goes, indeed.
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: Amianthus on February 27, 2007, 07:54:54 AM
Dusted off from the Clinton era, my ass!

Guess Lanya is posting lies, now.
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: Amianthus on February 27, 2007, 08:03:22 AM
Dusted off from the Clinton era, my ass!

Oh, yeah, and I guess you can no longer say:

The story didn't mention that the plans came with an expired shelf life and nothing I've seen from the Bush administration indicates that they're out of time.  That's just in your wishful imagination.

I've actually quoted the relevant section of Lanya's posted article and you responded to the post in which the quote was contained.
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: Michael Tee on February 27, 2007, 10:45:26 AM
<<I've actually quoted the relevant section of Lanya's posted article and you responded to the post in which the quote was contained.>>

My comment was posted giving the benefit of the doubt to Bush, construing the thing in its most favourable light (that the plans had been prepared in the Clinton era) - - Bush would still be a liar even WITH the benefit of the doubt.  The Hersh article makes it clear that there was no need to give Bush the benefit of the doubt, no need to speculate that the plans were really "dusted off" Clinton plans (as if that would have made him any less of a liar!) and in fact there was nothing dusted off about the lying bastard's plans.

BTW, in response to the allegation that Lanya must be posting lies now, Lanya can speak for herself but I am sure that by posting an AP article, she doesn't vouch for the veracity of every single allegation in it.  The main point of the article was that Bush had lied about not having plans to attack Iran, the source of the plans, erroneously reported as it turns out, were of distinctly secondary importance, particularly since they were irrelevant to the main ideas that (a) Bush had the plans and (b) he had lied about the fact.
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: Plane on February 27, 2007, 01:15:41 PM
<<I've actually quoted the relevant section of Lanya's posted article and you responded to the post in which the quote was contained.>>

My comment was posted giving the benefit of the doubt to Bush, construing the thing in its most favourable light (that the plans had been prepared in the Clinton era) - - Bush would still be a liar even WITH the benefit of the doubt.  The Hersh article makes it clear that there was no need to give Bush the benefit of the doubt, no need to speculate that the plans were really "dusted off" Clinton plans (as if that would have made him any less of a liar!) and in fact there was nothing dusted off about the lying bastard's plans.

BTW, in response to the allegation that Lanya must be posting lies now, Lanya can speak for herself but I am sure that by posting an AP article, she doesn't vouch for the veracity of every single allegation in it.  The main point of the article was that Bush had lied about not having plans to attack Iran, the source of the plans, erroneously reported as it turns out, were of distinctly secondary importance, particularly since they were irrelevant to the main ideas that (a) Bush had the plans and (b) he had lied about the fact.


   This only works if you are very determined to see a deception.

     Before Clinton had a new one drawn up there was probably an older plan dateing from the Carter era.

       If the Pentagon is doing its job it has a contigency plan for every likely situation of the near future , and probly a lot of such plans for unlikely situatons.
       
       By your reasoning no president could ever say wihout lieing that we have no invasion plans for Canada.

        I am quite sure that Thomas  Jefferson had such a plan , and it would not surprise me if James Bucannon had it updated.

        If Al Gore had been elected you would not let him say that he didn't plan to invade Iran? Or  Canada?
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: Amianthus on February 27, 2007, 01:21:55 PM
If the Pentagon is doing its job it has a contigency plan for every likely situation of the near future , and probly a lot of such plans for unlikely situatons.

Mikey doesn't understand that there is a whole (fairly large) group in the Pentagon that does nothing more than get paid to sit around and develop military plans for all sorts of scenarios - likely or not. And they frequently play them out using wargames.

I have a friend that developed the system they use for the wargames. He runs them at various conventions now that he's no longer in the Navy.
Title: Re: Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran...Vince Vance and the Valiants
Post by: sirs on February 27, 2007, 01:27:10 PM
If the Pentagon is doing its job it has a contigency plan for every likely situation of the near future , and probly a lot of such plans for unlikely situatons.

Mikey doesn't understand that there is a whole (fairly large) group in the Pentagon that does nothing more than get paid to sit around and develop military plans for all sorts of scenarios - likely or not. And they frequently play them out using wargames.

But the template is Bush is an evil, lying, cowardly, inferior version of Hitler.  Everything then must feed that template and rationalized as such......thus the irrational accusation that Bush had to have lied when he said there were no plans, when in reality there have always been plans.